A.W. Tozer on the JSOC and Outer Darkness

[James_Newman]

If you stand before Christ with a handful of works, thinking they give you the righteousness to enter into the kingdom, you are going to be very disappointed.

As you said, your works (righteousness) are as filthy rags.

1 Peter 2:12
12 Having your conversation honest among the Gentiles: that, whereas they speak against you as evildoers, they may by your good works, which they shall behold, glorify God in the day of visitation.

Strange thing to say about filthy rags... there is truth on both sides and you need to not include both sides in your ideas about what God requires. God says that when we have done our work, we are to say that we did but what was our duty to do as unprofitable servants. Nevertheless He promises to reward us for our good works.

 

[Amy.G]

1 Peter 2:12
12 Having your conversation honest among the Gentiles: that, whereas they speak against you as evildoers, they may by your good works, which they shall behold, glorify God in the day of visitation.

Strange thing to say about filthy rags... there is truth on both sides and you need to not include both sides in your ideas about what God requires. God says that when we have done our work, we are to say that we did but what was our duty to do as unprofitable servants. Nevertheless He promises to reward us for our good works.

Yes, He promises rewards for our good works, not punishment for failing. We lose rewards for failing, but we do not spend 1000 years in hell.

Have you done any research on the bema seat used in Greek sporting events that Paul was referring to?

 

[EdSutton]

...

Tozer must now be added to the growing list of courageous, insightful Christians that the Lord used to warn His people about the world to come and the judgment that precedes it. Men such as W.F. Roadhouse, I.M. Haldemane, R.E. Neighbor, D.M. Panton, Oswald J. Smith, Watchman Nee, R.T. Ketcham, and others in the 20th century [snipped]
**************************
CONTACT INFORMATION
**************************
Kingdom Baptist Church
700 Cordes Dr.
Venus, TX 76084

http://www.kingdombaptist.org
Pastor@kingdombaptist.org

I believe you meant I. M. Haldeman, as the second individual you listed.

Ed

 

[James_Newman]

Yes, He promises rewards for our good works, not punishment for failing. We lose rewards for failing, but we do not spend 1000 years in hell.

Have you done any research on the bema seat used in Greek sporting events that Paul was referring to?

I just know what you guys say about it. Have you done any research on the judgment seats (bema) found in scripture?

John 19:13
13 When Pilate therefore heard that saying, he brought Jesus forth, and sat down in the judgment seat in a place that is called the Pavement, but in the Hebrew, Gabbatha.
No prizes here.

Acts 18:12-17
12 And when Gallio was the deputy of Achaia, the Jews made insurrection with one accord against Paul, and brought him to the judgment seat,
13 Saying, This fellow persuadeth men to worship God contrary to the law.
14 And when Paul was now about to open his mouth, Gallio said unto the Jews, If it were a matter of wrong or wicked lewdness, O ye Jews, reason would that I should bear with you:
15 But if it be a question of words and names, and of your law, look ye to it; for I will be no judge of such matters.
16 And he drove them from the judgment seat.
17 Then all the Greeks took Sosthenes, the chief ruler of the synagogue, and beat him before the judgment seat. And Gallio cared for none of those things.
How's that for a reward?

Acts 25:10
10 Then said Paul, I stand at Caesar's judgment seat, where I ought to be judged: to the Jews have I done no wrong, as thou very well knowest.
Paul says a judgment seat is for judging.

 

[Amy.G]

I just know what you guys say about it. Have you done any research on the judgment seats (bema) found in scripture?

John 19:13
13 When Pilate therefore heard that saying, he brought Jesus forth, and sat down in the judgment seat in a place that is called the Pavement, but in the Hebrew, Gabbatha.
No prizes here.

Acts 18:12-17
12 And when Gallio was the deputy of Achaia, the Jews made insurrection with one accord against Paul, and brought him to the judgment seat,
13 Saying, This fellow persuadeth men to worship God contrary to the law.
14 And when Paul was now about to open his mouth, Gallio said unto the Jews, If it were a matter of wrong or wicked lewdness, O ye Jews, reason would that I should bear with you:
15 But if it be a question of words and names, and of your law, look ye to it; for I will be no judge of such matters.
16 And he drove them from the judgment seat.
17 Then all the Greeks took Sosthenes, the chief ruler of the synagogue, and beat him before the judgment seat. And Gallio cared for none of those things.
How's that for a reward?

Acts 25:10
10 Then said Paul, I stand at Caesar's judgment seat, where I ought to be judged: to the Jews have I done no wrong, as thou very well knowest.
Paul says a judgment seat is for judging.

Do some research James. It will help you to understand what kind of judgement Paul was talking about. Ignorance is not bliss.

 

[James_Newman]

Do some research James. It will help you to understand what kind of judgement Paul was talking about. Ignorance is not bliss.

2 Peter 1:3 According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue:

Why do you suppose God neglected to mention that judgment seats are only for giving out prizes (and then incorrectly used the word judgment seat over and over again as a place where a judge sits and judges people)?

 

[EdSutton]

Ignorance is not bliss.

Is for some people.

In fact, if ignorance is bliss, some folks should be ecstatic.

Ed

 

[Hope of Glory]

This same judgement has NOT taken place yet for unbelievers. They will stand at the GWT.
The judgement seat of Christ is for believers only. Those who are clothed in the righteousness of Christ.

And all these saved people will have their works tried, whether good or bad.

Is this statement true or false?

BTW, who clothes you?

If you will just do a little bit of study on the bema seat of the Greek games (which Paul is using as a comparison to the JSOC), you will find that only rewards were given at the bema, not punishments.

If you will do a little bit of study on the Olympics, you will find that there are those who win (few), those who simply participated in the race (many; still honored, but not as highly), those who watched, and one more group of people: Those who were disqualified.

Some of them were simply fined money. Some were sent off in their ships in disgrace. There were a few much more serious cases that were treated more harshly.

You can do a Google and find some of this, but I would recommend a visit to your library and read a book on the history of the ancient games, as the information that I've found on Google just mentions some of this in passing.

If you do not receive any rewards, you will not lose your standing (salvation) with God, but you will not receive the wonderful things God has stored up for us in heaven. These are the things that we "work" for. If you are disqualified, it means you do not receive any rewards.

Amen! Once saved always saved!

But, the warnings of hell (gehenna) are given to saved individuals.

If you think being disqualified means anything else, then you are saying that Paul feared losing his salvation, because of his words "lest I be disqualified". He considered his "work" in the churches to be his crown. This again is referring to rewards at the bema, or JSOC.

I've stated it about 1.1 billion times, but I'll state it again, since you obviously missed it:

Once you're born from above, you are in the family. Period.

Rewards for bad works are not pleasant.

If he were to be disqualified, he would lose his crown, but not his salvation.

Which is exactly, almost word for word, what several of us have stated explicitly. To which you and a couple of others say, "He cannot lose is salvation!"

If you are punished for sin, then Christ's death was in vain and you have believed in vain.

Tell me, Amy, why does a person need to confess his sins if he's not accountable for them?

Why do you remove accountability from a saved individual's life?

You cannot depend on your own righteousness (works) to gain you entrance into the kingdom. The only way to be with God is to put your faith in the finished work of Christ.

Where has anyone said that we depend on our own righteousness? We are commanded to be righteous to gain an entrance, but it's God's grace that permits us to be faithful, and faith is what permits us to serve him acceptably.

 

[James_Newman]

Is for some people.

In fact, if ignorance is bliss, some folks should be ecstatic.

Ed

I take it Ed, that you also believe we should blissfully ignore the examples in scripture of what a judgment seat is, and instead we should go find a nice commentary to explain away clear warnings in scripture?

 

[Accountable]

What you ME guys are missing is this, the believer has already been to court. The judging, sentencing and execution have already taken place, by our substitute, Jesus Christ.

By faith in Him, we are declared righteous. When we stand before Christ we do not lose our righteousness. We are not judged on our sin. See above paragraph.

Amy, The wages of sin is death, but the GIFT of GOD is eternal life....
where in this verse are you guaranteed authority in the Kingdom?
Where in this verse is a crown a GIFT?
Where in this verse is the Kingdom a gift?
This may start something but here it goes..... where are you guaranteed a mansion in "heaven?" (lit. the New Jerusalem)

The GIFT is eternal life. Crowns, and authority are spoken of as rewards in the Bible.
A GIFT is given without merit, but a PRIZE is earned, fought for, worked for, suffered for. (II TIM. 2:12)

 

[Accountable]

What you ME guys are missing is this, the believer has already been to court. The judging, sentencing and execution have already taken place, by our substitute, Jesus Christ.

By faith in Him, we are declared righteous. When we stand before Christ we do not lose our righteousness. We are not judged on our sin. See above paragraph.

So we have already been to the Judgement Seat of Christ? I do not accept this theology.

 

[Accountable]

This is yet another thing I love about ME. It's like cabbage patch dolls. No two MEs are alike. You and Rufus disagree with Amy on this point. James agrees. So it's a heresy that's hard to disarm because you can disprove it for one ME believer but two more ME believers will pop up and contradict the first ME believer.

Straying from the subject, but this is something I'm very interested in knowing:

Are you a Pastor?

 

[Accountable]

.

3. But the true believer does not have to worry about the condemnation of his soul salvation.

Do you have a verse to back this up as SOUL salvation. (Life salvation)

I would agree with the above statement if it said spiritual salvation.

 

[EdSutton]

2 Peter 1:3 According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue:

Why do you suppose God neglected to mention that judgment seats are only for giving out prizes (and then incorrectly used the word judgment seat over and over again as a place where a judge sits and judges people)?

Actually, the word "bema" where it is referring to the "judgment seat of Christ (or God)" occurs but twice, in Scripture, in Rom. 14:10 and II Cor. 5:10, according to Thayer.

I agree, FWIW, as II Cor. 5:10 (NKJV) says

For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive the things done in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad.

Doesn't sound like "only" giving out prizes, to me. What about the bad stuff?

Ed

 

[EdSutton]

I take it Ed, that you also believe we should blissfully ignore the examples in scripture of what a judgment seat is, and instead we should go find a nice commentary to explain away clear warnings in scripture?

Not at all, as my last post should show. And I was referring to no one, per se, but was just commenting on the statement one made.

Ed

 

[npetreley]

12 If any man builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw, 13 his work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each man's work. 14 If what he has built survives, he will receive his reward. 15 If it is burned up, he will suffer loss; he himself will be saved, but only as one escaping through the flames.

What does it mean to suffer loss? Does it mean to lose rewards, or does it mean to sit in hell for 1,000 years? Given that it says the person will still be saved, I don't see how anyone can interpret it to mean 1,000 years in hell.

40 "He who receives you receives me, and he who receives me receives the one who sent me. 41 Anyone who receives a prophet because he is a prophet will receive a prophet's reward, and anyone who receives a righteous man because he is a righteous man will receive a righteous man's reward. 42 And if anyone gives even a cup of cold water to one of these little ones because he is my disciple, I tell you the truth, he will certainly not lose his reward."

 

[James_Newman]

Not at all, as my last post should show. And I was referring to no one, per se, but was just commenting on the statement one made.

Ed

Amen and amen since I can't only amen once anymore. :laugh:

 

[Accountable]

What does it mean to suffer loss? Does it mean to lose rewards, or does it mean to sit in hell for 1,000 years? Given that it says the person will still be saved, I don't see how anyone can interpret it to mean 1,000 years in hell.

So what are the unfaithful doing during the Kingdom? They cannot be rewarded with authority, a crown, etc. What do they do? Where do they go?
Please back up your answer with biblical evidence.

 

[Accountable]

I agree, FWIW, as II Cor. 5:10 (NKJV) says Doesn't sound like "only" giving out prizes, to me. What about the bad stuff?

Ed

Good question Ed. What about the bad stuff? I am glad you are questioning.
What do you believe, biblically the answer is?

 

[npetreley]

So what are the unfaithful doing during the Kingdom? They cannot be rewarded with authority, a crown, etc. What do they do? Where do they go?
Please back up your answer with biblical evidence.

Do you think that the only two possibilities are ruling with Christ or spending that time in hell? There's no third option? Back up your answer with Biblical evidence.