A.W. Tozer on the JSOC and Outer Darkness

[James_Newman]

I have trod these beaten paths before, and if my memory does not betray me, a deadend is not too far.

The deadend always comes on page 30. But if we type furiously we may get a couple of freebies.

 

[TCGreek]

If our works play a part in justification, then salvation isn't free. It is has been earned.

1. Yet, we are linked with Rome. Nothing can be further from the truth.

2. What then is justification?

 

[Amy.G]

Punitive?

Comments on the punitive aspect?

I don't uderstand the question. Punitive means to inflict punishment. What is your point?

 

[James_Newman]

If our works play a part in justification, then salvation isn't free. It is has been earned.

Now you are starting to make sense. So what then is a justification that isn't free? It's a reward.

James 2:24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

Now you can turn around and say faith is works, or you can recognize this justification for what it is, which is a reward, and not the same justification that Paul speaks of which is a free gift.

 

[Amy.G]

Now you are starting to make sense. So what then is a justification that isn't free? It's a reward.

James 2:24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

Now you can turn around and say faith is works, or you can recognize this justification for what it is, which is a reward, and not the same justification that Paul speaks of which is a free gift.

We are justified (made right with God) through our faith in Christ, which produces good works. You cannot be made right with God apart from Christ.

Salvation (justification) is NOT a reward. It is a gift.

 

[npetreley]

Now you are starting to make sense. So what then is a justification that isn't free? It's a reward.

James 2:24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

Now you can turn around and say faith is works, or you can recognize this justification for what it is, which is a reward, and not the same justification that Paul speaks of which is a free gift.

Or, you can see that this one (and only one) verse appears to contradict numerous other verses that say exactly the opposite - that by the law NO FLESH shall be justified, that we are justified by FAITH NOT WORKS.

This leaves you with a problem. How do you explain why the Bible seems to contradict itself? Either you are misinterpreting THIS verse, or you are misinterpreting the numerous other verses. I've shown very clearly that you are misinterpreting this verse. You can continue to deny it, but you're the one who's on the outside looking in.

Or you can say there are two justifications, which amounts to two gospels, and now you've just numbered yourself among the accursed. Pick one, and have fun.

 

[James_Newman]

Or, you can see that this one (and only one) verse appears to contradict numerous other verses that say exactly the opposite - that by the law NO FLESH shall be justified, that we are justified by FAITH NOT WORKS.

This leaves you with a problem. How do you explain why the Bible seems to contradict itself? Either you are misinterpreting THIS verse, or you are misinterpreting the numerous other verses. I've shown very clearly that you are misinterpreting this verse. You can continue to deny it, but you're the one who's on the outside looking in.

Or you can say there are two justifications, which amounts to two gospels, and now you've just numbered yourself among the accursed. Pick one, and have fun.

I think you are misinterpretting both of them, so there.

 

[npetreley]

I think you are misinterpretting both of them, so there.

Neener neener neener. You're accursed. Go castrate yourself.

All of the above, except the neener part, is Biblical.

 

[James_Newman]

We are justified (made right with God) through our faith in Christ, which produces good works. You cannot be made right with God apart from Christ.

Salvation (justification) is NOT a reward. It is a gift.

James 2:24
24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

This is not a matter of interpretation, this verse is as plain as the nose on your face. It is the dead refusal of any accountability after salvation that causes folks to say this verse has to mean something other than what it says.

 

[James_Newman]

Neener neener neener. You're accursed. Go castrate yourself.

All of the above, except the neener part, is Biblical.

And all in the Spirit, I'm sure.

 

[Amy.G]

Neener neener neener. You're accursed. Go castrate yourself.

All of the above, except the neener part, is Biblical.

 

[npetreley]

James 2:24
24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

This is not a matter of interpretation, this verse is as plain as the nose on your face. It is the dead refusal of any accountability after salvation that causes folks to say this verse has to mean something other than what it says.

You're leaving out the context, but then you already know that. You've seen me print it before (and conveniently ignored it every time).

18 But someone will say, “You have faith, and I have works.” Show me your faith without your works, and I will show you my faith by my works.

Our works don't justify. We show that we are justified by the fact that our faith is living, and produces works.

 

[James_Newman]

Luke 6:25
25 Woe unto you that are full for ye shall hunger. Woe unto you that laugh now! for ye shall mourn and weep.

It's sad that a brother can tell another brother to castrate himself, and a sister in Christ would think that was funny.

 

[npetreley]

Luke 6:25
25 Woe unto you that are full for ye shall hunger. Woe unto you that laugh now! for ye shall mourn and weep.

It's sad that a brother can tell another brother to castrate himself, and a sister in Christ would think that was funny.

You deserve MUCH worse for preaching another gospel, one by works. If I were you, I'd take castration over what you're going to get for doing that. Better still, repent and stop preaching another gospel.

 

[James_Newman]

You're leaving out the context, but then you already know that. You've seen me print it before (and conveniently ignored it every time).

as if printing the verses around it change what it says.

Our works don't justify. We show that we are justified by the fact that our faith is living, and produces works.

James said a man is justified by works. There is no getting around that.

 

[James_Newman]

You deserve MUCH worse for preaching another gospel, one by works. If I were you, I'd take castration over what you're going to get for doing that. Better still, repent and stop preaching another gospel.

What do you suppose I will get?

 

[Rufus_1611]

What do you suppose I will get?

If NPet and Amy are right...you've got nothing to worry about.

 

[TCGreek]

as if printing the verses around it change what it says.


James said a man is justified by works. There is no getting around that.

1. If you want to go around isolating what James says without James context, then it is to your peril.

2. Context controls meaning.

 

[James_Newman]

If NPet and Amy are right...you've got nothing to worry about.

I don't know, I expect that at any moment they might start gnashing on me with their teeth.

 

[James_Newman]

1. If you want to go around isolating what James says without James context, then it is to your peril.

2. Context controls meaning.

I have no problem with that, but grammar trumps context. There is no way to change 'is justified by works' into 'works prove he is justified by faith'.