A.W. Tozer on the JSOC and Outer Darkness

[EdSutton]

Good question Ed. What about the bad stuff? I am glad you are questioning.
What do you believe, biblically the answer is?

I Cor. 3:11 ff. Also read the passage about being beaten with many stripes. It's there.

Gotta' run for now. Bye all, till sometime later.

Ed

 

[Amy.G]

So we have already been to the Judgement Seat of Christ? I do not accept this theology.

Sigh......Maybe you should go back and read this entire thread. I never said any such thing. I said repeatedly that in the judicial sense, Christ has been tried sentenced and executed on our behalf. That is why we are not judged at the GWT. All those who believe have already been declared righteous through our faith in Christ. We have yet to appear before the JSOC, where we are judged on what we did as a believer. But, Christ took the condemnation, therefore all who are in Christ are not condemned. We will not be punished for our sins or else our faith has been in vain.

This is basic stuff. Why do you guys have such a hard time with it?

 

[npetreley]

I Cor. 3:11 ff. Also read the passage about being beaten with many stripes. It's there.

Luke 12, right? Did you read all the stuff that leads up to that parable? Interesting contrast, if you ask me.

 

[J. Jump]

But, Christ took the condemnation, therefore all who are in Christ are not condemned. We will not be punished for our sins or else our faith has been in vain.

So if Christ has already dealt with everything as you say then there is no need to die to self and live the right way. We have the freedom to act as we please with no consequences other than our slice of paradise pie may not be as big as the next guy's. :tear:

If there is no potential for condemnation then there is no reason to live right now. Despite Scripture saying you can only serve one master your theology says in fact I can serve myself without any fear of consequences other than what may be a natural result in this life oh and if I'm bad enough God might take me out a little early so I can enjoy my paradise pie a little sooner.

Man what a deal. No wonder this is the majority view! You get to have your cake and eat the whole thing in one setting and get a new cake every day.

 

[Amy.G]

So if Christ has already dealt with everything as you say then there is no need to die to self and live the right way. We have the freedom to act as we please with no consequences other than our slice of paradise pie may not be as big as the next guy's. :tear:

If there is no potential for condemnation then there is no reason to live right now. Despite Scripture saying you can only serve one master your theology says in fact I can serve myself without any fear of consequences other than what may be a natural result in this life oh and if I'm bad enough God might take me out a little early so I can enjoy my paradise pie a little sooner.

Man what a deal. No wonder this is the majority view! You get to have your cake and eat the whole thing in one setting and get a new cake every day.

Where did you get all that?

No, those who are in Christ are NOT condemned. Are you denying that?

Why don't you do a study on reward and loss of rewards? There will be some who barely escape hell. They will go to heaven, but they will have no rewards. There will be deep regret for what they could have done, but didn't. Others will receive great rewards for their faithful service. This is a serious matter that you should not be so flippant about.

 

[Rufus_1611]

Where did you get all that?

No, those who are in Christ are NOT condemned. Are you denying that?

Time out for addending the, yet again, truncated verse...

"There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit." - Romans 8:1​

...time in, please proceed.

Why don't you do a study on reward and loss of rewards? There will be some who barely escape hell. They will go to heaven, but they will have no rewards. There will be deep regret for what they could have done, but didn't. Others will receive great rewards for their faithful service. This is a serious matter that you should not be so flippant about.

 

[TCGreek]

So if Christ has already dealt with everything as you say then there is no need to die to self and live the right way. We have the freedom to act as we please with no consequences other than our slice of paradise pie may not be as big as the next guy's. :tear:

1. Another classic caricature. Even Paul had to address the same (Rom 6).

2. Those who say because we are now free in Christ and face no condemnation, does not understand salvation and sanctification.

If there is no potential for condemnation then there is no reason to live right now. Despite Scripture saying you can only serve one master your theology says in fact I can serve myself without any fear of consequences other than what may be a natural result in this life oh and if I'm bad enough God might take me out a little early so I can enjoy my paradise pie a little sooner.

Man what a deal. No wonder this is the majority view! You get to have your cake and eat the whole thing in one setting and get a new cake every day.

3. What are you reading? It sure doesn't sound like the Bible you are reading and making those uninformed statements.

4. True Christianity, in no way, promotes antinominianism. An abuse of Christianity does.

5. How can we separate the believer's responsibility, when the bible doesn't?

 

[James_Newman]

Where did you get all that?

No, those who are in Christ are NOT condemned. Are you denying that?

Why don't you do a study on reward and loss of rewards? There will be some who barely escape hell. They will go to heaven, but they will have no rewards. There will be deep regret for what they could have done, but didn't. Others will receive great rewards for their faithful service. This is a serious matter that you should not be so flippant about.

Can you find this information in the bible, or do you have to go to the same place where you learn about bemas? :thumbs:

 

[npetreley]

1. Another classic caricature. Even Paul had to address the same (Rom 6).

2. Those who say because we are now free in Christ and face no condemnation, does not understand salvation and sanctification.

3. What are you reading? It sure doesn't sound like the Bible you are reading and making those uninformed statements.

4. True Christianity, in no way, promotes antinominianism. An abuse of Christianity does.

5. How can we separate the believer's responsibility, when the bible doesn't?

Amen. That's an intellectually dishonest tactic you see the ME folks use all the time. They paint it as if there are only two choices: Kingdom salvation or antinomianism. Either we work for kingdom rewards, or we get high on stolen drugs and run around killing people in between sessions of adultery. No middle ground.

 

[James_Newman]

Amen. That's an intellectually dishonest tactic you see the ME folks use all the time. They paint it as if there are only two choices: Kingdom salvation or antinomianism. Either we work for kingdom rewards, or we get high on stolen drugs and run around killing people in between sessions of adultery. No middle ground.

No, the third choice is works salvation (frontloaded or backloaded, take your pick.)

 

[Hope of Glory]

Do you think that the only two possibilities are ruling with Christ or spending that time in hell? There's no third option? Back up your answer with Biblical evidence.

I don't think anyone but you, Amy, and TC Greek have made such a claim.

 

[Hope of Glory]

I said repeatedly that in the judicial sense, Christ has been tried sentenced and executed on our behalf.

I think you said (it may have been someone else) "punitive" earlier, which is what I think you mean by "judicial".

Is that correct?

 

[TCGreek]

No, the third choice is works salvation (frontloaded or backloaded, take your pick.)

1. Neither Amy, Npetreley or myself believe in works salvation.

2. The very thing you are accusing others of is the very thing you are promoting. Has that been lost upon you?

 

[Amy.G]

One thing that always seems to get left out of all this is the power of the Holy Spirit. JJump has said many times that being born of the Spirit doesn't mean there will any change. According to him, many who are born again experience zero change in their thoughts, actions or desires.

The Holy Spirit in us keeps us from running around sinning (like NP said) with no conviction of the Spirit.

 

[J. Jump]

1. Neither Amy, Npetreley or myself believe in works salvation.

TC I know of very few people if any that would openly admit that they believe in a works-based plan for everlasting life. However you all can deny it until your blue in the face but the conclusion of combining the gospels of grace through faith apart from works and the gospel of the kingdom works-based salvation is the ONLY conclusion that can come out of that whether your deny it or not that matters not.

The gospel of the kingdom requires life-long obedience for salvation. That's works no matter how you draw it up.

I laid that out in an earlier post.

The very thing you are accusing others of is the very thing you are promoting.

No it's not and it once again shows a lack of understanding on your part as to what we are really saying. We are some of the few that are left that say everlasting life is received when a person believes (plus nothing).

Works can only enter the picture AFTER everlasting life has been received. And the works are a choice. You can either do them and receive the consequences for your obedience or you can choose not to do them and you will receive the consequences for your actions.

But works have NOTHING, ZERO, ZILCH, NADA to do with everlasting life NOTHING. Not prior to, not during nor afterward.

 

[James_Newman]

1. Neither Amy, Npetreley or myself believe in works salvation.

Neither does the Catholic church.

2. The very thing you are accusing others of is the very thing you are promoting. Has that been lost upon you?

I am only proposing works play a part in justification as it pertains to the judgment seat of Christ. Eternal salvation is as free as the day is long, which you may pay lip service to, but in the end you will either have to admit that a saved person is perfectly able to sin any sin under the sun, or you will have to make up some arbitrary lines that perceived 'true' Christians can't cross. When Paul said that where sin abounded grace abounded more, he meant it. I don't have to try to protect the blood of Christ from filthy sinners by denying its power to save them, even if they never stop sinning till the day they die. All I am doing is putting forth the biblical warnings that Paul did. The unsaved sinner gets saved by believing on Christ alone. The saved sinner gets saved by trusting Christ for the power to overcome sin.

 

[J. Jump]

JJump has said many times that being born of the Spirit doesn't mean there will any change.

That's not entirely accurate, but why should accuracy be of any concern these days?

There is ALWAYS a change. You are dead and then brought to life. That is a HUGE change. However it is true that there may or may not be significant and lasting change in thoughts and action. I think a lot of that has to do with culture, but that's a different topic.

 

[Hope of Glory]

Punitive?

Comments on the punitive aspect?

 

[TCGreek]

Neither does the Catholic church.

I am only proposing works play a part in justification as it pertains to the judgment seat of Christ. Eternal salvation is as free as the day is long, which you may pay lip service to, but in the end you will either have to admit that a saved person is perfectly able to sin any sin under the sun, or you will have to make up some arbitrary lines that perceived 'true' Christians can't cross. When Paul said that where sin abounded grace abounded more, he meant it. I don't have to try to protect the blood of Christ from filthy sinners by denying its power to save them, even if they never stop sinning till the day they die. All I am doing is putting forth the biblical warnings that Paul did. The unsaved sinner gets saved by believing on Christ alone. The saved sinner gets saved by trusting Christ for the power to overcome sin.

I have trod these beaten paths before, and if my memory does not betray me, a deadend is not too far.

 

[Amy.G]

Neither does the Catholic church.

I am only proposing works play a part in justification as it pertains to the judgment seat of Christ. Eternal salvation is as free as the day is long.

If our works play a part in justification, then salvation isn't free. It is has been earned.