Abbreviated Word Study G2523, kathizete

[Greektim]

Hi Greektim, did I say you did? Words have meanings the meanings have merit.

I did not say, nor suggest I was making a point that it was ok to change an active verb into middle voice.

I just quoted you saying I was mistaken about "koine Greek does have examples of the use of reflexive pronouns with active verbs." I'm not sure what I said or where I said such, but perhaps you can provide my words. Otherwise, I was not mistaken. This thread has showed at many levels the many mistakes you make and why these "word studies" are fruitless. At least they are just reaching for the low hanging fruit.

 

[Van]

Koine Greek does have examples of the use of reflexive pronouns with active verbs. Those are my words.

Thus to translate G2523 in the active voice with a reflexive pronoun is not precluded by Greek grammar as used in scripture.

Here are your words which agree with the above: "However, to say "they have seated in the chair of Moses" is bad English. In this case, the "themselves" is supplied not to indicate a reflexive understanding of the verb but to make better translation.

 

[Greektim]

Koine Greek does have examples of the use of reflexive pronouns with active verbs. Those are my words.

Thus to translate G2523 in the active voice with a reflexive pronoun is not precluded by Greek grammar as used in scripture.

Here are your words which agree with the above: "However, to say "they have seated in the chair of Moses" is bad English. In this case, the "themselves" is supplied not to indicate a reflexive understanding of the verb but to make better translation.

I think you are missing what I am saying. Just b/c Greek can use an active voice verb and a reflexive pronoun does not make your translation right to do so when an active voice verb is used and no reflexive pronoun. I honestly don't remember the verse in question or the grammar of that verse. But I suspect I was referring to a middle voice verb wherein the reflexive nature is implied. We don't have that in English.

As to what I said, the verb used was active (if memory serves) and the only reason to add the reflexive pronoun was to smooth the English. It is not necessitated by the Greek since there is a synonym that could have been used in the middle/reflexive voice yet didn't. Why not use the reflexive verb if you wanted reflexive sense? Why use an active voice verb when another option was available.? My answer: he wasn't concerned about communicating reflexivity.

 

[Van]

Not sure what your point is, Greektim. My choice of translation, seated himself, is neither required nor precluded by koine Greek grammar. The NASB translators chose to translate our word in Matthew 23:2, just as I did in John 19:13.

Reflexive pronouns like himself, themselves, reflect the action back on the subject. However, they are sometimes used with active voice verbs, in scripture, i.e. 1 John 5:21. So my offering is both consistent with a translation choice of the NASB (at Matthew 23:2), and of some Koine Greek writers, i.e. John (at 1 John 5:21.)

 

[Greektim]

Not sure what your point is, Greektim. My choice of translation, seated himself, is neither required nor precluded by koine Greek grammar. The NASB translators chose to translate our word in Matthew 23:2, just as I did in John 19:13.

Reflexive pronouns like himself, themselves, reflect the action back on the subject. However, they are sometimes used with active voice verbs, in scripture, i.e. 1 John 5:21. So my offering is both consistent with a translation choice of the NASB (at Matthew 23:2), and of some Koine Greek writers, i.e. John (at 1 John 5:21.)

I'm not criticizing your translation. I'm just trying to clarify my point when you said that I was mistaken.