Abc 20/20

[Salty]

ABC is not turning people against IFB churches..

Godly Christians are seeing the IFB churches for what they are... and the IFBs are turning away Godly christians...

Not sure if I totally agree with you.

ABC (the TV network, not the old Northern Bap conv) reported the "facts" of a few individuals.
Sure Godly Christians may understand that all IFB are not like that, but to the ungodly - all they see is Baptists regardless of sub-denomination.

 

[tinytim]

You may be right Salty.. You may be right...

 

[Jkdbuck76]

Nice church-full of whackjobs.

Can we say CULT?
"Prophet's chamber"?

I guess I should be surprised, but I'm not.

 

[abcgrad94]

If we Baptists worry about our reputation getting a black eye more than exposing sin and purging it from our churches, and helping the victims of that sin, our priorities are in the wrong place.

God will take care of our reputation. We need to take care of the sin and help the victims. If our churches are serious about loving God and loving others as ourselves, the world will see that love.

Even if this is a smear job by the media, it should cause us to get on our knees and examine our churches, not shoot the messenger for making it public. We should be embarrassed that such sin had to be exposed by unbelievers because Christians didn't deal with it properly.

 

[ReformedBaptist]

Terrible that this kind of stuff goes on.

I do agree with the assessment that if there is a single, superior authority within the government of the church then you do have a recipe for abuse. There should be a plurality of elders. Further, I am starting to wonder if a presbytery would help avoid such abuses. A member would be able to bring such a thing to a governing body.

 

[NaasPreacher (C4K)]

If we Baptists worry about our reputation getting a black eye more than exposing sin and purging it from our churches, and helping the victims of that sin, our priorities are in the wrong place.

.

I don't think that anyone here has expressed that view.

 

[Tom Bryant]

Terrible that this kind of stuff goes on.

I do agree with the assessment that if there is a single, superior authority within the government of the church then you do have a recipe for abuse. There should be a plurality of elders. Further, I am starting to wonder if a presbytery would help avoid such abuses. A member would be able to bring such a thing to a governing body.

I agree with the sentiment. But disagree with the need for a governing body. I don't think it could be a reality because of the basic baptist doctrine of the autonomy of the local church. But I agree with the sentiment.

 

[abcgrad94]

The clear intent of this story is to turn all the other “good Christians” against anything that looks like an IFB Church.
--------------------------------------------------
All those who believe everything they see on TV and allow it to form their opinion about good Churches, are a sad casualty in today’s Spiritual warfare.

So are you calling the victim a liar? Are you insinuating this is only an attack on IFB churches to hurt their reputation and the cause of Christ?

 

[Aaron]

Missed this last night (Friday, 8 April).

http://abcnews.go.com/2020

20/20 did a segment on Trinity Baptist Church and Chuck Phelps' cover-up of a rape of a 15-year old girl. I became aware of the episode because someone then e-mailed a website I manage, with the claim that they now know about our despicable IFB church and our teachings.

I'm sitting here wondering, how do people like Chuck Phelps continue to be pastors? Are we IFBers such simple, blind sheep that we don't read the bible for ourselves, and realize that pastors are people, too, with the same failings and poor judgment?

And I'm sitting here wondering, how many more e-mails am I going to get condemning all IFB churches because 20/20 went to one IFB church, and painted the worst possible picture they could?

Ho hum.

 

[matt wade]

abcgrad94, michael-acts17:11, and tinytim have an obvious hatred for IFB churches. Shame on all three of them for broad brushing all IFB churches in the same manner that 20/20 did. Shall I broad brush all SBC churches for the failure of one or two? I could easily do that if I were to act foolishly as you all have.

 

[abcgrad94]

abcgrad94, michael-acts17:11, and tinytim have an obvious hatred for IFB churches. Shame on all three of them for broad brushing all IFB churches in the same manner that 20/20 did. Shall I broad brush all SBC churches for the failure of one or two? I could easily do that if I were to act foolishly as you all have.

You know, I wasn't going to do this, but your comments compel me to share just a glimpse of my life while growing up in a total of 10 different IFB churches. My first "spanking" happened when I was the ripe old age of 3 MONTHS. That's right--my colic must have given me a bad attitude and I didn't obey when told to shut up, so I got "spanked." Life just kind of went downhill from there. I won't bore you with all the details, except to say I feared for my life and well-being on a daily basis. We moved around alot (imagine that!) and every single church we went to was the same. The pastor was the boss, we were all idiots who didn't know anything. When my mom complained of the MANY abuses, she was always told to "be submissive" and stay with my dad. He was never held accountable for what he did to us. When I and other children attended school with black and blue and purple bruises, nothing was ever "noticed." Years later when our current pastor was told *exactly* in detail, what went on in our home, he attempted to counsel my dad for a few months, after which he let him serve as a Sunday school teacher and let him fill in at the pulpit. The church was never told, and my dad was even allowed to drive the bus to pick up children. The police were never told anything.

So, yeah, the scars run deep. When you live like that and have PTSD from the abuse, the IFB pastors tell you to "forgive" and not to seek "worldly" help or take ungodly anti-depressants. Then you come on forums like this and you're told you hate IFB's. Go figure!

When I see stories like this, I KNOW they are true. I lived it.

 

[Zenas]

abcgrad94, michael-acts17:11, and tinytim have an obvious hatred for IFB churches. Shame on all three of them for broad brushing all IFB churches in the same manner that 20/20 did. Shall I broad brush all SBC churches for the failure of one or two? I could easily do that if I were to act foolishly as you all have.

I don't think it's so much a hatred for IFB churches as it is for what they teach and how they teach it. They would no doubt join me in denouncing the heavy handed manner in which their pastors control their congregation. That they do so is undeniable. I know several of these pastors, and occasionally have lunch with one of them, and they truly believe they are called to rule over their church. Pastors are called to serve a church, not to rule over it.

 

[michael-acts17:11]

abcgrad94, michael-acts17:11, and tinytim have an obvious hatred for IFB churches. Shame on all three of them for broad brushing all IFB churches in the same manner that 20/20 did. Shall I broad brush all SBC churches for the failure of one or two? I could easily do that if I were to act foolishly as you all have.

Classifying our experience-based perspective as hatred does not negate the reality which we have experienced. I could just as easily say that you must be foolish, brain-washed follower of an IFB cult(just an example, not an accusation). I know your history as well as you know mine. We all judge based upon our own experiences. Just as 9/11 victims are more condemning of extremist muslims than the liberals who preach that Islam is a peaceful religion. It's all about your perspective.

 

[Don]

Ho hum.

"Ho hum"?

Which part is so boring to you? The part where underage ladies are being raped, or the part where independent fundamental baptists are pictorialized as child-beaters/rapists?

 

[Don]

I don't think it's so much a hatred for IFB churches as it is for what they teach and how they teach it. They would no doubt join me in denouncing the heavy handed manner in which their pastors control their congregation. That they do so is undeniable. I know several of these pastors, and occasionally have lunch with one of them, and they truly believe they are called to rule over their church. Pastors are called to serve a church, not to rule over it.

You know several...and you have lunch with one. So *ALL* IFB pastors are the same.

Yep, can't argue with that logic.
-----
I sympathize with abcgrad. Being military, I've moved a few times, and I've been a member of several different IFB churches. I served in one church where I finally recognized the pastor was following the behavior described here. He and I had a "discussion" one Saturday afternoon; when he called me to have the discussion, it was me and him; when I showed up on Saturday, he had a deacon (his right-hand man) with him. I knew then I was being set up. We started discussing, and I laid out three problems that I had with his behavior and his "teachings"; he then turned to the deacon and asked if he agreed. At this point, my heart was sinking, because I suspected how the deacon was going to answer. Imagine my surprise when the deacon agreed with me on all three points.

However, rather than address these problems, the conversation turned to my wife's conduct. We concluded the meeting, and later that evening I returned all borrowed materials to the man and cut off my membership.

The biggest mistake I made in the situation, however, was that people in the church would come to me and ask what happened; I chose to remain silent on the subject and tell them, "you need to ask the pastor." I thought I was being respectful and doing my best not to cause division within the church. Later I found out a somewhat different story was being told from the pulpit regarding my departure.

So I can sympathize with abcgrad, michael, and others...but I also draw the line, because I've been in more IFB churches that don't have pastors who act that way, or preach that way. If I had to put a number on it, I'd say the ratio (for me personally) is 7:1 for pastors who don't preach that men are to dominate their wives, and don't preach that we are to beat our children, etc., etc.

 

[Jkdbuck76]

David Koresh told his people to beat their infants for crying too much.
Just let that sink in to your mind.

If I saw somebody beat their infant, I'd call the cops.....AFTER I got done breaking their arms.

 

[michael-acts17:11]

David Koresh told his people to beat their infants for crying too much.
Just let that sink in to your mind.

If I saw somebody beat their infant, I'd call the cops.....AFTER I got done breaking their arms.

:applause::thumbs::applause:

 

[abcgrad94]

but I also draw the line, because I've been in more IFB churches that don't have pastors who act that way, or preach that way. If I had to put a number on it, I'd say the ratio (for me personally) is 7:1 for pastors who don't preach that men are to dominate their wives, and don't preach that we are to beat our children, etc., etc.

My experience has been that the hard core IFB has the most abuse. This is the crowd that preaches KJVO, dresses only, no birth control, no etc. Our current church where my dh pastors is Independent Baptist, but we are part of the GARBC, so while the churches remain "independent" there is still an umbrella of peers and accountability in place. It's voluntary, but so far the pastor's we've met in our association are not dictators, like you find in the hard-core IFB churches where the pastors trained under Jack Hyles, Bob Jones, Tom Malone, etc.

No, not every single IFB pastor is a jerk. Some are good men who are just deceived and blinded by legalistic "standards." The problem is, the denomination caters to abusers by teaching extreme methods and using dictatorship roles for church and home. This is why so many victims are silent for years until they become adults and "rebel" against those teachings. Those inside the denomination are too brainwashed to expose the sin and correct it.

 

[tinytim]

abcgrad94, michael-acts17:11, and tinytim have an obvious hatred for IFB churches. Shame on all three of them for broad brushing all IFB churches in the same manner that 20/20 did. Shall I broad brush all SBC churches for the failure of one or two? I could easily do that if I were to act foolishly as you all have.

Nope don't hate them, pity them for their ways...

EVERY IFB church I grew up in in WV was all the same, Pastor ruled, women were second class, legalistic in the sense that they thought that the more rules they follow they more holier they were.. no dancing, drinking, card playin, movie going, HBO watchin was to be allowed..

All women MUST wear clothes the pastor thought was appropriate..
boys were an abomination if they didn't wear 40 style haircuts...
OR if a boy walked into church with an earring, the pastor would spit, and shout down fire and brimestone on that poor teen..

Sinners were shouted at... (Think Felp's clan)...

And this was all in the 70s and 80s... Then came the KJVOnlies in the 90s.. .that took over central WV IFBs.. so much so that the ignorant in the pews that thought that Paul wrote in old english, started believing the pastors coming out of Hyles, and Pennsecola that had no education (decent translation education) but parroted what they were taught.

We were taught that Southern Gospel was the only Godly music... and even on mission fields in Africa, we should make them sing Peg McKamey songs..

It all revolved around what rules the pastor thought was important.. and it trapped the ignorant in the pews.. they had on association to appeal to for help, and all the ignorant KJVO, women wearing dresses pastors moved to the IFBs and overtook them because they were challenged in real Baptist churches..

That's my experience with IFBS..
Before I came to Baptist board...

After I came here I met some that I know does not fit that mold.. Roger and John are a couple..

But most IFBS that come here are KJVO... that right there is enough to tell me they are caught up in false doctrine...

 

[matt wade]

You know, I wasn't going to do this, but your comments compel me to share just a glimpse of my life while growing up in a total of 10 different IFB churches. My first "spanking" happened when I was the ripe old age of 3 MONTHS. That's right--my colic must have given me a bad attitude and I didn't obey when told to shut up, so I got "spanked." Life just kind of went downhill from there. I won't bore you with all the details, except to say I feared for my life and well-being on a daily basis. We moved around alot (imagine that!) and every single church we went to was the same. The pastor was the boss, we were all idiots who didn't know anything. When my mom complained of the MANY abuses, she was always told to "be submissive" and stay with my dad. He was never held accountable for what he did to us. When I and other children attended school with black and blue and purple bruises, nothing was ever "noticed." Years later when our current pastor was told *exactly* in detail, what went on in our home, he attempted to counsel my dad for a few months, after which he let him serve as a Sunday school teacher and let him fill in at the pulpit. The church was never told, and my dad was even allowed to drive the bus to pick up children. The police were never told anything.

So, yeah, the scars run deep. When you live like that and have PTSD from the abuse, the IFB pastors tell you to "forgive" and not to seek "worldly" help or take ungodly anti-depressants. Then you come on forums like this and you're told you hate IFB's. Go figure!

When I see stories like this, I KNOW they are true. I lived it.

So, based on your experience, all fathers are abusive. Please let me know when you are going to start ranting against all fathers and insist that they are all abusive.