Reformed1689
Well-Known Member
Murder of a baby in the case of a rape is not acceptable. Yes, the woman went through a terrible event. However, that gives nobody the right to murder a baby. Period.
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Abortion In Cases of Rape
- Thread starter Reformed1689
- Start date
atpollard
Well-Known Member
[Lev 20:10-12 NIV]
I bet some babies might have died.
(I am not pro abortion, I am anti-over simplification).
10 " 'If a man commits adultery with another man's wife--with the wife of his neighbor--both the adulterer and the adulteress are to be put to death. 11 " 'If a man has sexual relations with his father's wife, he has dishonored his father. Both the man and the woman are to be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads. 12 " 'If a man has sexual relations with his daughter-in-law, both of them are to be put to death. What they have done is a perversion; their blood will be on their own heads.
I bet some babies might have died.
(I am not pro abortion, I am anti-over simplification).
Reformed1689
Well-Known Member
First of all, this is not the law that we are currently under. That was for a specific time and a specific people and for different circumstances. You can't take Scripture out of context and expect it to apply.
Abortion is a pre-meditated killing of an innocent life simply because it is not convenient. That's not an over-simplification, it is just that simple. Abortion is murder. Period.
If you support abortion in the case of rape you are pro abortion. If this the admin will not deal with your support of that it has lost its way.
atpollard
Well-Known Member
All Life Threatening Complications: 1 in 100 women
- Placental abruption (requires hysterectomy to save mother)
- HELLP syndrome
- amniotic fluid embolism
- severe pre-eclampsia
- eclampsia (epileptic type fits)
Reformed1689
Well-Known Member
Not sure what your point is.
However, the mortality rate for pregnancy related issues in the United States in 2016 was 0.000169. Pregnancy Mortality Surveillance System | Maternal and Infant Health | CDC
It is not a significant number and certainly not an excuse for murdering a baby.
kathleenmariekg
Active Member
True, we are not under OT law, BUT God is the same God, and it is informative that he did not add a clause to jail pregnant women until the baby was born.
Abortion was practiced in NT times, and never once is it specifically forbidden when things like hair length and the correct way to slaughter meat were discussed so seriously.
It is not true that abortion is always done for convenience. Too many women that seek abortion are mothers living in poverty that are failing to provide for the children that they already have.
Some are married women accompanied by their husbands and both are heartbroken and ashamed, not just about seeking the abortion, but their belief that they are failures as parents. Some are under the scrutiny of child services already and have even lost their children.
Some mothers are homeless and living in a shelter and have authority figures watching their every move, and see the children of other mothers being taken away. Foster care is a dangerous place to grow up. Homeless moms are desperate, not looking for convenience.
Pregnancy takes a real toll on a woman's body and on body parts that people don't like to talk about in polite company. Research on incontinence, prolapse, fistulas and bleeding is sad. Some women are already having difficulty maintaining their jobs at all, never mind their dignity. It is not convenience to not want to pee your pants or bleed through your clothes more often than you already are. Especially if you are a low income mom already labeled as legally failing to care for the children you have.
Homicide is the leading cause of death of pregnant women in some states. Until we start doing more to protect the lives of women, there are women that are terrified of being murdered by the baby daddy. Death is more than inconvenient. It is dead.
Homicide is a leading cause of pregnancy-associated death in Louisiana
Where is the line between self-defense and convenience? I don't know. But trying to shift that line so that women have more options will decrease abortions. We know that. Why isn't that a rallying cry of the churches? If churches want to start saving babies rather than control women, it is in their power to do that. Churches can save babies. But they don't.
Abortion was practiced in NT times, and never once is it specifically forbidden when things like hair length and the correct way to slaughter meat were discussed so seriously.
It is not true that abortion is always done for convenience. Too many women that seek abortion are mothers living in poverty that are failing to provide for the children that they already have.
Some are married women accompanied by their husbands and both are heartbroken and ashamed, not just about seeking the abortion, but their belief that they are failures as parents. Some are under the scrutiny of child services already and have even lost their children.
Some mothers are homeless and living in a shelter and have authority figures watching their every move, and see the children of other mothers being taken away. Foster care is a dangerous place to grow up. Homeless moms are desperate, not looking for convenience.
Pregnancy takes a real toll on a woman's body and on body parts that people don't like to talk about in polite company. Research on incontinence, prolapse, fistulas and bleeding is sad. Some women are already having difficulty maintaining their jobs at all, never mind their dignity. It is not convenience to not want to pee your pants or bleed through your clothes more often than you already are. Especially if you are a low income mom already labeled as legally failing to care for the children you have.
Homicide is the leading cause of death of pregnant women in some states. Until we start doing more to protect the lives of women, there are women that are terrified of being murdered by the baby daddy. Death is more than inconvenient. It is dead.
Homicide is a leading cause of pregnancy-associated death in Louisiana
Where is the line between self-defense and convenience? I don't know. But trying to shift that line so that women have more options will decrease abortions. We know that. Why isn't that a rallying cry of the churches? If churches want to start saving babies rather than control women, it is in their power to do that. Churches can save babies. But they don't.
Reformed1689
Well-Known Member
Because it was already forbidden in the OT. Thou Shall Not Kill.
kathleenmariekg
Active Member
That is out of context of the general beliefs of the time, and the Bible does not specifically refute this belief as would have been necessary for the people to understand that it was forbidden.
Was abortion acceptable for OT people? For NT people? At what point in history do you think abortion became wrong according to the Bible? What were the priests commanded to do with pregnant adulteresses?
Scott Downey
Well-Known Member
Medical practice in saving lives also allows evil things to happen.
God will be the judge of it, people make many bad choices. People also make a few good choices.
In His righteous judgement, the slain of the Lord shall be many.
Isaiah 66:16
For by fire and by His sword The Lord will judge all flesh; And the slain of the Lord shall be many.
Jeremiah 25:33
And at that day the slain of the Lord shall be from one end of the earth even to the other end of the earth. They shall not be lamented, or gathered, or buried; they shall become refuse on the ground.
God will be the judge of it, people make many bad choices. People also make a few good choices.
In His righteous judgement, the slain of the Lord shall be many.
Isaiah 66:16
For by fire and by His sword The Lord will judge all flesh; And the slain of the Lord shall be many.
Jeremiah 25:33
And at that day the slain of the Lord shall be from one end of the earth even to the other end of the earth. They shall not be lamented, or gathered, or buried; they shall become refuse on the ground.
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atpollard
Well-Known Member
1% of all women will encounter some "life threatening complication" during a pregnancy. In about 1 in 1000 cases, the complication will be severe enough to place the life of the mother at risk even with hospitalization and treatment. In some percentage of these cases, the ONLY medical choice will be between terminating the pregnancy or watching BOTH the mother and unborn child die.
If ALL abortion is ILLEGAL, then YOU have chosen the tragedy of TWO deaths instead of ONE.
You claim:
Reality is more subtle.
The US sees 3.75 million births per year.
That means 37,500 "life threatening complications" per year.
That means 3,750 women hospitalized for "life threatening complications" with a significant chance of dying from those complications.
If 50% of those women require an abortion to save the life of the mother (I have no idea what the actual % is), then outlawing abortion will condemn an additional 1875 women to death during pregnancy.
From your CDC statistics, the number of pregnancy related deaths is already 634 WITH abortions as a treatment option, so banning all abortions may quadruple pregnancy related mortality ... and all THOSE babies will still die in their mother's wombs.
Murder of the innocent is murder of the innocent. No qualifications need be added.
I think death penalty for adultery should still be enforced.
That post is stupid. No other way to put it.
Scott Downey
Well-Known Member
The Romans 13 argument is that capital punishments is right and just for people doing bad things.
The sword is not wielded in vain.
4 for he is God's servant for your good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword in vain. For he is the servant of God, an avenger who carries out God's wrath on the wrongdoer. 5 Therefore one must be in subjection, not only to avoid God's wrath but also for the sake of conscience.
God's wrath will get them in the end, if man wont do it first.
If we as a society dont punish evil doers with the sword, then we are sinning against God's laws, society becomes the law breaker as well.
We in this country tolerate violent criminals. The LEFT is eliminating bail.
Scott Downey
Well-Known Member
Since there is only one command and it is death for adultery, being pregnant was not an exception.
For English law it required the birth to take place then the woman was executed
The Law of God was a swift and sure punishment on evil doers. Today the punishment is still sure and certain, just not as swift, seeing if it does not happen in this life, it will at the judgement.
Deuteronomy 22, if you read the chapter, also lists exceptions for capital punishments, pregnancy is not listed as an exception
20 “But if the thing is true, and evidences of virginity are not found for the young woman, 21 then they shall bring out the young woman to the door of her father’s house, and the men of her city shall stone her to death with stones, because she has done a disgraceful thing in Israel, to play the harlot in her father’s house. So you shall put away the evil from among you.
22 “If a man is found lying with a woman married to a husband, then both of them shall die—the man that lay with the woman, and the woman; so you shall put away the evil from Israel.
Not that I disagree with you because I don't....but....
- Sometimes those who are pregnant via rape are as young a nine years old. It's happened. Multiple times.
- Hypothetically, if your 13-year-old is pregnant via rape by her uncle, your brother, how do your talk her into carrying the baby? Do you force her? Against her will?
- Do you force any woman who is pregnant by being raped to carry the baby to term?
- Is anyone considering the mental health of the mother and the great need for counseling, meds, Christian support, and more.
Sometimes we are so caught up in protecting a fetus, and we should be - that the concern and protection and mental health of the one raped is never considered.
That's the only thing that bothers me when I hear conservative people discuss this topic.
In cases of rape and incest - which I do not believe is grounds for abortion - I never hear anyone speak of nor discuss HOW you will force a child to carry a child or HOW you will force a woman to carry a child.
There is a LOT more to the abortion abomination than meets the eye.
canadyjd
Well-Known Member
My wife and I support an organization called “Options for Women: Help for families”; A pro-life group that offers counseling, medical and financial assistance for mother and father and pre-natal for baby.
Over the last several years, just in our little area, they’ve helped several dozen women choose life and they follow up with parenting classes and care packages (food and diapers).
Peace to you