Abortion : should we admit exceptions ?

[Dragoon68]

Anger based revenge for harm done to a loved one, as understandable as it might be in human terms, is not a proper motive for Christians. On the other hand, aggressive defense of loved ones with whatever force may be required is justified. We have a duty to defend our loved one especially as husbands and fathers. Intent means everything in all such actions.

I think most of us feel strongly about this and would hope and pray that we would be able to live up to our ideal if needed. There are a lot of "Papa bears" around!

Some of us have also had the opportunity to defend others as soldiers and as law enforcement agents. We also, in that capacity, understand what has to be done - justifiably so - to "protect and defend" others by the authority of the state. A person sees a lot and learns a lot doing that. We understand the difference between murder and justified killing. We understand also the limits even in doing these things and how difficult the decisions, actions, and consequences can often be.

None of this changes anything regarding abortion. Abortion is just plain murder of the worst kind.

 

[Revmitchell]

The ectopic pregnancy is a difficult situation, however their is no chance for the child no matter what you do or do not do. Risking the mothers life and or health serves no purpose.

 

[annsni]

Anger based revenge for harm done to a loved one, as understandable as it might be in human terms, is not a proper motive for Christians.

Agreed.

On the other hand, aggressive defense of loved ones with whatever force may be required is justified. We have a duty to defend our loved one especially as husbands and fathers. Intent means everything in all such actions.

I think most of us feel strongly about this and would hope and pray that we would be able to live up to our ideal if needed. There are a lot of "Papa bears" around!

Right. So it's wrong to defend a life against that which is going to kill it? What if someone was going to accidentally shoot your child and you absolutely knew your child was going to die unless you did something? It was not intentional but it was going to happen none-the-less? Do you just say "well, they don't intend to hurt them so I'll just let it happen?"

Some of us have also had the opportunity to defend others as soldiers and as law enforcement agents. We also, in that capacity, understand what has to be done - justifiably so - to "protect and defend" others by the authority of the state. A person sees a lot and learns a lot doing that. We understand the difference between murder and justified killing. We understand also the limits even in doing these things and how difficult the decisions, actions, and consequences can often be.

None of this changes anything regarding abortion. Abortion is just plain murder of the worst kind.

It does when we're not talking about an abortion in the common sense of the word. Do you know that I had two abortions? Yes, I did. I had two abortions that God caused. They were called "spontaneous abortions" - the clinical term for a miscarriage. An ectopic pregnancy is not an "abortion" in the fact that the pregnancy is doomed. A child in the fallopian tube has zero chance of surviving. None. And the progression of "nature" will result in a dead mother too unless emergency intervention occurs. Yes, we can wait until the tube ruptures but you know what? Even then the child might still be alive. Do we then wait until the heartbeat stops before we go and try to save the mother? That would guarantee a dead mother too. And what of the person who allows someone to die when they can stop it from happening? I see that as murder just as much as if it was with your own hand.

 

[Dragoon68]

Aggressive defense to protect someone against a violent offense is justified. You don't have to sit by and watch it happen. You just need to make sure your response fits the threat. Such an act would not murder.

 

[annsni]

Aggressive defense to protect someone against a violent offense is justified. You don't have to sit by and watch it happen. You just need to make sure your response fits the threat. Such an act would not murder.

The embryo is committing a violent offense against your body - slowly killing it as it kills itself. That would not be a time to act?

 

[Dragoon68]

The unborn child is not a violent offender accountable for its actions. The murder of it to save one's self is not justified.

 

[Johnv]

The unborn child is not a violent offender accountable for its actions. The murder of it to save one's self is not justified.

The unborn child is going to kill the mother. Killing the unborn child to save the life of the mother, while an awful thought, is appropriate.


Are you truly saying that a woman pregnant with an ectopic pregnancy must allow herself to die?

 

[annsni]

The unborn child is going to kill the mother. Killing the unborn child to save the life of the mother, while an awful thought, is appropriate.


Are you truly saying that a woman pregnant with an ectopic pregnancy must allow herself to die?

He has stated to wait until the fallopian tube ruptures THEN go take care of it.

Unfortunately with the ruptured fallopian tube, the baby might still be alive. I DID ask if we need to wait until the baby is dead before we can remove it but I haven't gotten an answer to that yet.

 

[Johnv]

He has stated to wait until the fallopian tube ruptures THEN go take care of it.

That's plain nuts. It's like saying you need to wait until someone pulls the trigger before you defend yourself.

 

[ccrobinson]

Being watchful and ready to catch it when it naturally terminates itself by rupturing the fallopian tube seems to me to be the proper course we should take.

Do you even know what an ectopic pregnancy is? Your continued insistence on taking the path that leads to sure death for both baby and mother leads me to believe that you don't have any idea what you're talking about.

 

[annsni]

That's plain nuts. It's like saying you need to wait until someone pulls the trigger before you defend yourself.

He's not the first to have the same thoughts. I've seen others that say you should do nothing. If the mother dies, it was God's will. How sad is that?

 

[Johnv]

That mentality is contrary to "thou shalt not test the Lord thy God".

 

[Dragoon68]

Back up a ways in the thread. I think most everyone who's argued the topic in recent times is aware of what ectopic pregnancy. It's a frequently used argument for those who want to rationalize the exceptions.

One of the things we seem to forget about is that often the right thing to do - the Christian thing - is not necessarily to best thing for ourselves. We've become very focused on self. There are times when things seem hopeless and beyond our feeble abilities to resolve. Those are just reminders of who's really in charge and to Whom we should always turn. He may not remove the pain or change the outcome but He will grant ultimate peace and ability to handle whatever comes to whomever of His children ask it of Him.

We have no right to murder an unborn child just because we risk dying from the pregnancy - even the ectopic pregnancy. If we yield to that argument then many other "justified" cases will quickly follow. After all, death from childbirth was once far more common than it is now. Would murdering the unborn child have been acceptable then? Nope and neither is it now!

 

[Dragoon68]

The question asked is whether or not a "... woman pregnant with an ectopic pregnancy must allow herself to die?"

If the answer "no" is given, then it condones that she should murder the unborn child so that she may live. Is that right? No, absolutely not! That would be a selfish act and it would be totally wrong. Most mothers would rather die for their child - not kill it to live themselves.

If the answer "yes" is given, then many immediately suggest that those who advocate it are somehow guilty of killing the mother. That's not the case at all! No one wishes pain and suffering on the mother. We would hope there could be some comfort and treatment given to ease the pain. But the pain can not justify a murder.

The truth is that this question is nothing but a case presented to confound the minds and hearts of people and convince them that there are "justified" "exceptions" to a zero-abortion policy.

The truth is that life begins at conception. The truth is that God is the father of all life. The truth is that man has no right whatsoever to murder an unborn child regardless what pain or suffering God permits to the mother either in conception, in carriage, or in delivery. It is God's choice.

This is no more difficult to accept that God's sovereign right to chose those that He wills to be His children and to condemn the rest to eternal separation from Him for their sinfulness. The grace was unmerited. The sentence of death was deserved.

Neither seems "fair" to man's way of thinking but it all works out according to His will if you believe that He really is sovereign.

 

[annsni]

Dragoon - I pray that your wife never experiences an ectopic pregnancy because I'm afraid you'd let her die before she could be saved. That's frightening to me.

 

[Johnv]

Doesn't matter. Dragoon is scripturally wrong on the issue, and that's not opinion, that's a matter of objective fact.

 

[ccrobinson]

One of the things we seem to forget about is that often the right thing to do - the Christian thing - is not necessarily to best thing for ourselves.

So a woman who lets herself die so that a child that has no chance of living can die is a Christian thing to do? That makes no sense whatsoever.

We have no right to murder an unborn child just because we risk dying from the pregnancy - even the ectopic pregnancy. If we yield to that argument then many other "justified" cases will quickly follow.

You're making a stand about ectopic pregnancy because you're afraid of a slippery slope? Sheer nonsense.

After all, death from childbirth was once far more common than it is now.

What does this have to do with ectopic pregnancy?

 

[Robert Snow]

Dragoon - I pray that your wife never experiences an ectopic pregnancy because I'm afraid you'd let her die before she could be saved. That's frightening to me.

I don't think even Dragoon believes what he states here. Certainly if his wife did experience an ectopic pregnancy he would no doubt change his tune.

This seems to be a case where one Christian feels they have to out holy the other ones. I have seen it at several IFB churches I attended in the past. No matter what the point of discussion, some feel they must take a more strict stand in order to show that they are more holy, or more trusting toward God than the others. I believe it is mostly just talk.

 

[KenH]

If I understand correctly, in an ectopic pregnancy there is no chance for the baby to survive. Therefore, ending this is not an abortion as normally used to mean ending the life of a baby who would be born if allowed to continue to develop.

 

[Johnv]

It's an abortion, but it's morally permissible by scriptural standards. Where Dragoon fails is that he is adding to scripture by presuming that all abortion violates the "you shall not murder" commandment. Scripture doesn't support his view.