Abortion : should we admit exceptions ?

[Dragoon68]

We should be thankful to God for the advances in medical procedures and treatments that we have today. My point in reference to previous times is that we still don't know all that we think we do and we still have no more right to decide life or death for an unborn child than we ever did. We just don't understand God's ways and, if we believe He's really in control, then we should be able to trust Him for the things we don't understand as much as we do the things that we do understand.

Being watchful and ready to catch it when it naturally terminates itself by rupturing the fallopian tube seems to me to be the proper course we should take. By taking this course we leave it in God's hands. We should not intervene with an abortion because we think we know the answer. When we do that we take the life of the unborn child - even if we "know" it has no chance - into our own hands.

I'm not sure how Memorial Day got into this discussion but I think there are several of us here than can personally relate to that Holiday!

 

[annsni]

We should be thankful to God for the advances in medical procedures and treatments that we have today. My point in reference to previous times is that we still don't know all that we think we do and we still have no more right to decide life or death for an unborn child than we ever did. We just don't understand God's ways and, if we believe He's really in control, then we should be able to trust Him for the things we don't understand as much as we do the things that we do understand.

Being watchful and ready to catch it when it naturally terminates itself by rupturing the fallopian tube seems to me to be the proper course we should take. By taking this course we leave it in God's hands. We should not intervene with an abortion because we think we know the answer. When we do that we take the life of the unborn child - even if we "know" it has no chance - into our own hands.

You do realize that waiting until the fallopian tube ruptures (which it will - there has never been a case of a pregnancy in a fallopian tube going to term) is VERY risky and EXTREMELY painful? I'm sorry but it's not a good course of treatment and will result in losing the fallopian tube therefore risking further fertility complications.

I'm not sure how Memorial Day got into this discussion but I think there are several of us here than can personally relate to that Holiday!

I'll tell you how Memorial Day comes into play. I was picking up my daughter at midnight from the grocery store where she works and when we pulled up, there was a man who had his neck slashed who was just pacing back and forth. A gentleman was on the phone with the young man's family and he had called 911 but this man was bleeding profusely and was pacing back and forth with blood everywhere (they later got a firetruck to hose down the parking lot, there was that much blood). Not one person touched this young man who was very obviously completely drunk. I ran, grabbed paper towels (all I had) and made him sit down on the ground and I sat behind him, holding him in front of me while I held the paper towels on his neck. How I didn't get any blood on me other than a little on the back of my hand, I don't know. I had people yelling at me to not touch him since I didn't have gloves but I didn't care. This man needed to be calmed down, sat down and the wounds covered with pressure. I was willing to do it and didn't really care at all about any risk to me from disease because this man would die without help. I know where I'm going - I don't know where he was going. I wanted to preserve his life so that he wouldn't meet Jesus that night without possibly knowing about him. I prayed with him and he was rushed a few minutes later to the hospital - and made it, although he had lost a lot of blood. The EMTs instructed me to not let go of him until he was on the gurney because I held his life in my hands. THAT is what I'm talking about. I'm not afraid to lose my life because I know where I'm going. But to lose my life for one that will not survive is kind of silly, IMO. An ectopic pregnancy can be found for the location and 99.999% of the time, it will be fatal to the baby. The rare case of ectopic pregnancies surviving are so small - and every single one has been outside of the fallopian tube. If one is in the tube, the baby will die. Period. Would you give your heart to transplant into a dying man? I don't think so. That is what you're asking a woman to do who has an ectopic pregnancy.

 

[Matt Black]

:thumbsup: A cogent and thoughtful post, Ann. Thank you.

 

[Dragoon68]

The predicament remains. You can not save the mother's life or save the mother's pain or save the mother's embarrassment or save the mother's inconvenience unless you take the baby's life in your own hands. That is wrong no matter what the reason. Death, pain, embarrassment, and inconvenience must all be borne by the Christian. After all our Lord did so on our behalf. We need to stop trying to rationalize what is clearly wrong because such rationalization has no end. Satan will always encourage us to make exceptions and to stretch the rules in hopes he can somehow discredit the Lord and make a fool of us.

 

[Johnv]

...On what basis do we decide such a thing?

Scripture is pretty clear. It condemns murder. It does not condemn killing in general. The examples you gave can be, depending on the circumstance, seen as forms of self-defense or self-preservation, which are not scripturally condemned. Case in point: if someone comes at me with a gun, I will kill that person if I have the opportunity. That's scripturally permitted, and does not dishonor scripture.

 

[Matt Black]

The predicament remains. You can not save the mother's life or save the mother's pain or save the mother's embarrassment or save the mother's inconvenience unless you take the baby's life in your own hands. That is wrong no matter what the reason. Death, pain, embarrassment, and inconvenience must all be borne by the Christian. After all our Lord did so on our behalf. We need to stop trying to rationalize what is clearly wrong because such rationalization has no end. Satan will always encourage us to make exceptions and to stretch the rules in hopes he can somehow discredit the Lord and make a fool of us.

And you're continuing to ignore the point that an ectopic embryo is quite simply non-viable. You might as well demand that an anencephalic foetus be 'saved'.

 

[HankD]

The predicament remains. You can not save the mother's life or save the mother's pain or save the mother's embarrassment or save the mother's inconvenience unless you take the baby's life in your own hands. That is wrong no matter what the reason. Death, pain, embarrassment, and inconvenience must all be borne by the Christian. After all our Lord did so on our behalf. We need to stop trying to rationalize what is clearly wrong because such rationalization has no end. Satan will always encourage us to make exceptions and to stretch the rules in hopes he can somehow discredit the Lord and make a fool of us.

You forgot the motive of self defense.

To end an ectopic tubular pregnacy is a response to the fear of imminent death and not a rationalization. Call it abortion if you will. IMO, it is not "blood guilt" abortion.

Blood guilt abortion is the pre-meditated cessation of the life of the baby in the womb by human intervention without the motive of the certain death of the mother.

True, each woman must decide for herself whether to die or not to die as a result of an ectopic pregnancy.


HankD

 

[annsni]

The predicament remains. You can not save the mother's life or save the mother's pain or save the mother's embarrassment or save the mother's inconvenience unless you take the baby's life in your own hands. That is wrong no matter what the reason. Death, pain, embarrassment, and inconvenience must all be borne by the Christian. After all our Lord did so on our behalf. We need to stop trying to rationalize what is clearly wrong because such rationalization has no end. Satan will always encourage us to make exceptions and to stretch the rules in hopes he can somehow discredit the Lord and make a fool of us.

We're not talking about saving the mother's embarrassment here. We're talking about allowing a mother to either die or live. It's as simple as that.

 

[Dragoon68]

We're talking about killing an unborn child to save the mother's life. On one side we have those who want to rationalize that. On the other side we have those who maintain we have no right to do that and we should instead trust in the Lord.

 

[Dragoon68]

The concept of self-defense should not be applied to abortion. The unborn child has committed no offense against the mother or the father. What right do they have to "defend" themselves against it?

 

[Johnv]

The concept of self-defense should not be applied to abortion.

Self defense is self defense, and it's not scripturally condemned.

 

[Dragoon68]

There's no doubt that God can cause or permit any one of us to experience all kinds of terrible situations and the woman who has an ectopic pregnancy is certainly one of them. This doesn't change the rules. God forbids us to murder another human being. He actually forbids us to do that even if they have harmed us. He does provide for a means of justice through the proper authorities but, as an individual, we are forbidden to murder any one at any time. Abortion is murder and it is a most grievous kind because it is premeditated and carried out against a completely defenseless person. The tragedy of circumstances doesn't change this.

 

[Dragoon68]

The Memorial Day story is an intersting story in its on right. Others could tell similar stories from past experiences. But these have nothing to do with the issue of abortion

 

[annsni]

The concept of self-defense should not be applied to abortion. The unborn child has committed no offense against the mother or the father. What right do they have to "defend" themselves against it?

Why should it not be? The child HAS committed an offense although it had no choice to do so. The offense is that it has placed itself in a place where it cannot survive. The child will suffer the consequences regardless of whether it meant to do it or not. So will the mother. The choice here is whether or not to decrease the effects of the consequences or not.

 

[Johnv]

God forbids us to murder another human being. He actually forbids us to do that even if they have harmed us.

That's untrue. There are numerous scriptural references that permit (but do not require) self-defense. For example, Ex22 tells us that if a person, threatened by a thief, strikes that thief, killing him in the process, there is no guilt upon the person who struck the thief.

Scripture does not forbid self defense at all. The only way your assertion would hold water is if you also abhor killing during warfare, as well as abhor capital punishment. Then, you wouls also have to ignore all verses pertaining to such that permit it.

 

[Dragoon68]

There's a difference between intended and unintended consequences.

There's a difference between self-defense and defense of others.

There's a difference between acts of the state and acts of the individual.

We, as Christians, have no right to murder any one at any time. We have no justification to abort a pregnancy. We commit murder when we do.

 

[Johnv]

That's circilar reasoning: abortion is always murder, therefore aborting an ectopic pregnancy cannot be self defense, because abortion is always murder.

Let me make this clear:

If a person walks into my house and threatens the life of my wife, I will kill that person. If my wife gets pregnant, and that pregnancy threatens the life of my wife, I will have the pregnancy aborted. That's not murder, and it's scripturally permitted.

 

[Dragoon68]

It is Biblical based reasoning. God forbids us to murder. Abortion constitutes murder. Therefore, God forbids abortion.

 

[Johnv]

It is Biblical based reasoning. God forbids us to murder. Abortion constitutes murder. Therefore, God forbids abortion.

There's a flaw in your reasoning. Your premise is that all abortion is murder. That's not true.

 

[annsni]

Yes, I see abortion as murder. I do agree that in the treatment of an ectopic pregnancy, we are taking a life. But you better darned well know that if anyone tries kill or severely hurt my children, I am capable of murder. No question. Would I stand back and say "It's not my place to stop you" when someone is holding a gun to my children's heads and I have the opportunity to save them? No one knows what kind of a mama bear I can be. Trust me. Not all murder is unjustified.