Abortion

[Joseph_Botwinick]

Amen PJ.

And you all call me liberal...if this is what Fundamentalism is all about...supporting the right of the mother to kill her baby...then I will stick to liberalism thank you very much.

Joseph

 

[Joseph_Botwinick]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by flyfree432:
I don't support abortion, although I do support the choice that people have in their lives to make mistakes. I would do *almost* anything I could to stop someone having an abortion but when it comes down to it I can't stop them if that is their choice.

This is much like the conviction that I hold that I may not agree with anything you have to say yet I will fight for your right to say it.

Until Next Post, Adam[/QB]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

So let me see if I have this correct,

You don't support the idea of baby killing...but you will fight for a mother's right to kill her baby...right?

This is nowhere close to being anything like a free speech issue...we are talking about cold blooded murder...bottom line.

Joseph

 

[Gina B]

You have to choose whether you believe abortion is or is not murder. There is no middle ground on this issue. You cannot pick a specific situation, like rape or incest, or a 'poor scared teen', and say it makes a difference. Guess what? Whether by rape or willingness or whatever the case it is still a forming child.
Flyfree, hypothetical situation. You see a woman take a newborn baby and she's going to kill it. Do you ultimately decide it's up to her? Or do you do everything in your power to save that child?
Sound drastic? Yes. Want the truth about abortion though? I once had quite a bit of info. in my home for a ministry I was starting and have to wait on. You wouldn't belive the horrors of it all. Have you ever watched an abortion? Don't just watch one little film meant to sway you emotionally, get the real medical films, filmed for research and study. They tell the truth just as well.
And I'm going to throw this in as well since I'm here. Since it's frighteningly obvious that abstinence for teens isn't happening real fast, and neither are laws against abortion,(although teens are by no means not the only ones having abortions) I totally agree with birth control being available to all of them, for free, no parental notification.
Gina

 

[Pennsylvania Jim]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Joseph Botwinick:
Amen PJ.

And you all call me liberal...if this is what Fundamentalism is all about...supporting the right of the mother to kill her baby...then I will stick to liberalism thank you very much.

Joseph<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Did I call you a liberal?

 

[Joseph_Botwinick]

Nope...

But I would be considered liberal by several here on this board...although I doubt that is an accurate depiction of myself. Oh I am sorry, I guess I spoke in anger and was blowing off steam. I apologize. I am just shocked that there are this many people on this board who call themselves fundamentalist Christians and yet try to justify baby killing and think that speaking the truth and calling the murder of the unborn exactly what it is (MURDER) is mean and wrong. Yet they will argue to the death that Santa Clause is anti-Christ...

I am sorry if I sound harsh...but would y'all please grow up spiritually.

This is not meant for you PJ...I am sorry that I wasn't clear about this.

Joseph

 

[Pennsylvania Jim]

No problem, didn't bother me a bit. I believe that there are two factors (closely related) that cause such statements as made by flyfree. I am not necessarily referring to him here, he will I hope have his own explanation.

1) Christians have not learned to go to alternative sources for their daily information. By that I mean that they are bombarded with humanistic garbage from the major media, and it does take its toll on ones' thinking. God's Word will keep the heart straight but not if the mind is filled (even unintentionally) with a barrage of lies on a daily basis. There are alternative, credible sources if you make a small effort to access them.

2) PEOPLE DON'T THINK.They repeat slogans and buzzwords that were planted in their minds by the media, or their teachers, or some preacher, without testing it against the Word of God. It takes TIME and WORK to do this but it becomes second nature once it is put into practice for a time.

Actually both things take a lot of work and time, which unfortunately many are not willing to do.

And anyone who accuses Santa Claus of being the anti-christ had better watch out lest they wind up with a stocking full of coal come Christmas morning.

[ September 05, 2001: Message edited by: Pennsylvania Jim ]

[ September 06, 2001: Message edited by: Pennsylvania Jim ]

 

[Joseph_Botwinick]

Unfolding today
a miracle play
this Indiana morn

The father he sighs
she opens her eyes
their baby boy is born

We don't understand
he's not like we planned
the doctor shakes his head

Abnormal they cry
and so they decide
this child is better dead.

I bear the blame
believers are few
and what am I to do
I share the shame
the cradle's below
and where is baby doe

A hearing is sought
the lawyers are bought
the court won't let him eat

The papers applaud
when judges play God
this child is getting weak

They're drawing the bead
reciting their creed
respect a woman's choice

I've heard that before
how can you ignore
this baby has a voice?

I bear the blame
believers are few
and what am I to do
I share the shame
the cradle's below
and where is baby doe?

Where will it end
oh...no? No...

It's over and done
the presses have run
some call the parents brave

Behind your disguise
your rhetoric lies
you watched a baby starve

I bear the blame
the cradles below
and where is baby doe?

---------------------------------------

If this were more than a song by Steve Taylor and an actual situation, I wonder if we would be arguing for the woman's right to kill her baby, or arguing for an incremental change in the laws to stop the mother. Oh, that's right...this baby that we are discussing isn't even born yet and the truth is that some of you don't really believe it is a baby and that it is murder when still in the womb. It is a shame that Christians will not stand up for the weakest and most helpless of society...the unborn. And there will come a day when our hearts will be so hardened that human life will be of absolutely no value and we will be able to justify just about anything. But let's be nice about it if any of us might happen to dare to speak out for the truth against MURDER. Let's not try to stop the baby killing industry altogether...it doesn't really matter if a couple of thousand are killed this year as long as it is a little less than last year and as long as our economy is OK. We really need to pray that God will soften our hearts on this one before it is too late...

Joseph

 

[John Wells]

For anyone desireing to make a difference:

Petitions For Life

 

[Brother Adam]

If I took away a mothers choice to have an abortion i am a communist. You can take a horse to water but you can't make it drink.

When did I say that abortion is not cold blooded murder? Never. It is. And I will walk the lines with anyone else. YET God gave us free will. I am completely against abortion by every means probably more so than some of you here.

What I meant by my previous post is that a woman still does have that God given choice. Just like that thug had the choice to murder a cashier. It's wrong and we should do what we can to stop it- BUT it is still a choice they have to make. We cannot make it for them. That is all I was saying, nothing more, nothing less.

Until Next Post, Adam

 

[Gina B]

Adam, thank you for making that clear.

However, what I don't want you to do is come to a quick decision of what you beieve based on a few strong opinions that you've heard voiced here, just for the sake of agreement or because they sound good now. Take your time studying and learning and being led by the spirit instead of the opinions of others. I'm not AT ALL saying you're coming to the wrong one, just concerned that perhaps the basis could be the opinions instead of the facts.
Gina

 

[John Wells]

Saw a bumper sticker today that read:

KEEP YOUR LAWS OFF MY BODY

That statement/attitude implies several assumptions:

1) I have a right to live irresponsibly and to take any action necessary in my own interest, regardless of moral implications or the life of another.
2) Two wrongs = one right!
3) I am above the law.
4) The only good law is one that I agree with.

The naturalistic worldview says, "There are no truths; no moral absolutes. Each person has to construct their own sense of morality and make their own choices. Homosexuality is a viable option (as good as anyone else's choice). Abortion is removing a growing tissue; not killing a baby." That is the philosophy being taught, no, drilled into our children in the public education system today. This describes "the world" today:

Furthermore, since they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, he gave them over to a depraved mind, to do what ought not to be done. They have become filled with every kind of wickedness, evil, greed and depravity. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit and malice. They are gossips, slanderers, God-haters, insolent, arrogant and boastful; they invent ways of doing evil; they disobey their parents;
they are senseless, faithless, heartless, ruthless. (Rom 1:28-31 NIV)

And this, the verse immediately following, describes some pastors and congregations today:

Although they know God's righteous decree that those who do such things deserve death, they not only continue to do these very things but also approve of those who practice them. (Rom 1:32 NIV)

How sad and tragic!

 

[Joseph_Botwinick]

AMEN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Pastor Larry]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by flyfree432:
If I took away a mothers choice to have an abortion i am a communist. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

It is communistic to take away one person's right to kill another? What has this thought process come to? There is a right to life ... there is no right to kill people without due warrant.

 

[Gina B]

A MOTHER'S choice to have an abortion. Interesting word usage.
Gina

 

[livin'intheword]

I'm sorry people. If it's a choice betweening offending another human, and offending GOD...guess who's gonna lose? Murder in any form, is wrong. God gave life and it is his and his alone to take away. You can not chose to allow someone to kill a baby, and then say " Sorry, they have that right to chose." I've always said that I'm pro-choice. BUT the choice comes BEFORE the baby. End of story. Now for the subject of "free will." There is no such thing. You have the will of your sinful nature, and you have the will of the Holy Spirt. It's up to you to listen to the spirt inside. If your will is really "free" you could do anything you wanted to. Will yourself to fly. Really, will yourself to fly. You can only do what is in your nature. I don't know about you, but I take comfort in the fact that I'm under control of the Holy Sprit that can do ALL things.

 

[Brother Adam]

Gina said: "
Adam, thank you for making that clear.
However, what I don't want you to do is come to a quick decision of what you beieve based on a few strong opinions that you've heard voiced here, just for the sake of agreement or because they sound good now. Take your time studying and learning and being led by the spirit instead of the opinions of others. I'm not AT ALL saying you're coming to the wrong one, just concerned that perhaps the basis could be the opinions instead of the facts.
Gina"

Dear Gina,

Thank you for your concearn. Actually I am aquantied with the horrors of abortion. I gave a couple of research presentations on it in high school (I rate my presentations based on how many people have to leave the room because they are sick to their stomachs- the more the better

)

Until Next Post, Adam

 

[Don]

We should make ALL abortions illegal; but people will still find a way to have abortions. This doesn't mean we should turn around and make them legal, or make excuses for them. It means that we can enact and enforce laws, but people will still follow their sinful, rebellious nature and sin against God anyway.

The FIRST thing that has to be done is show them how much they need God. If for some reason they refuse to acknowledge that, the next thing you can try is educating them as to what an embryo/fetus really is (not a blob of tissue or vestigial organ, as Planned Parenthood would have us believe).

And if that fails, there's not much we can do.

By all means, let's make abortions illegal, and enforce punishments for it. But let's also realize that without God working in and on them, most people aren't going to realize just how wrong abortion is.

 

[myreflection26]

The fact of the matter is women do a have choice, everyone has a choice but sadly we don't always make the right choices.

I personally believe that God is the ultimate chooser of my life and everyone else's but as of now any woman can walk into a clinic and abort a child. My biggest anger is towards the government who allows girls under 18 to walk in and have this done without concent of the parents. They can't drive till they are 16, they can't rent x rated movies or buy smokes or even drink till a certain age but its perfectly fine for them to walk into a clinic and do away with a child. amazing how they are presumed to not be old enough or capable enough to make the choice of raising a child but they hold all those qualities to make the choice of having an abortion on thier own.

The pregnancy center (not planned parenthood)
is there to help women to make good choices with thier unborn child and they give incentives to them such as offering food, clothing, basic essentials in helping a young lady realize that someone out there does care about them and thier baby and wants to see them succeed in life while raising a child.

Sue

 

[Nicole]

"Myreflection, or Sue" I loved your response and couldn't agree with you more. I admire the work you do at the pregnancy center! I myself am also adamantly opposed to abortion...I was diagnosed with brain cancer three years ago and even after being told that I would never be able to conceive again...somehow, I became pregnant last year. I hadn't cycled in four years so it was pretty amazing that I conceived. The doctors were very forceful in their opinions that I have an abortion or excuse me...as they put it "terminate the pregnancy" I refused and told them that I truly felt it was God's will for me to have this baby. They were certain that number one, I wouldn't be able to sustain the pregnancy but if somehow I did, then the baby would be seriously plagued by all sorts of problems. Their number one argument however was that the pregnancy would most likely cause the tumor in my brain to take a rapid growth spurt and ultimatly kill me. I prayed about it, my husband prayed about it and we decided that if God didn't want me to have the child then, HE would take it from me. I was at peace with that decision. Nevertheless, three months into it, my lungs failed (I have asthma) and I was hospitalized. They took the baby at 6 months, because I was going down hill and wouldn't have made it. I had two other children to think of and I did feel confident that while he would be small, I felt God would protect him. Praise the Lord, this tiny baby born three months early was PERFECTLY healthy..never had to be on a respirator, and weighed one ounce shy of four pounds!!! He's home and healthy as a horse! We named him SAM...A name with a lot of meaning to me...I think of this verse'I prayed for this child and the Lord gave me what I asked' and his initials stand for:
S-Such A - M-Miracle. Sorry to go on and on...but I think of my little miracle when I hear people talk about all the "reasons" they have for aborting. Although I believe you need to counsel these people with love, I wish there was some way to change their hearts and let them understand what they are doing!!!

 

[John Wells]

Nicole,

What a witness! God bless "Such-A-Miracle, you, your husband, and your entire family.