A few thoughts on abortion from former Extreme lead singer and lead singer of Van Halen (sort of), Gary Cherone:
http://www.rockforlife.org/gary
http://www.rockforlife.org/gary
-
Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.
Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!
Abortion
- Thread starter John Wells
- Start date
peaches-ohio
New Member
As a woman who has been married for 11 years, and am unable to have a child, abortion is especially depressing and offensive. When we have to save 20,000 to 30,000 dollars to adopt a baby because there are none for us to find, the "every child a wanted child" mantra by the pro choice people seems ridiculous. These children are wanted. There is even a waiting list for downs syndrome babies here in America. Sadly my brother's girlfriend had an abortion. I guess she would have rather killed her child than let us raise it.
Unfortunately, the topic of abortion has become a litmus test for Christianity. The truth is, there is a large of population of the Christian segment (though not the majority) that does not feel that all abortion is murder. I suppose it depends on what you believe about when life begins. The bible is silent on this topic. It does talk about it being before birth, but does not say where before birth. We know it's at least from six months on, because Elizabeth was six months pregnant with John the Baptist when the bible says "the baby" leapt in her womb.
Abortion is a tough topic, and many Christians are afraid to discuss the topic for fear of being branded heretics.
Abortion is a tough topic, and many Christians are afraid to discuss the topic for fear of being branded heretics.
Nicole's story was heart warming and a true story of survival and determination. God bless your son.
But...
Not all women can go through with a pregnancy for whatever their reasons. And they should have the same choice Nicole had in making her own decision instead of letting or having others make it for her. If the law can tell you not to abort, then it can tell you that you must abort when the other side gets control. It is best to leave the State out of it and work on the individual and why they shouldn't abort.
I wish that not one fetus would ever be aborted, but that is not the way humanity works. We have a choice and rights over our bodies. Even if bad choices where made etc, we still should have a right over what goes on with our body. The only time this should not be so is when one is imprisoned by the State.
So it shouldn't be about laws, it's should be about an individuals personal and spiritual belief about the situation. The church's position should be one of education on the subject, not voting on the subject. It is sometimes guilt and shame that creates some abortion situation...and who should we blame for that? The church's attitude about this subject needs to change.
But...
Not all women can go through with a pregnancy for whatever their reasons. And they should have the same choice Nicole had in making her own decision instead of letting or having others make it for her. If the law can tell you not to abort, then it can tell you that you must abort when the other side gets control. It is best to leave the State out of it and work on the individual and why they shouldn't abort.
Johnv, that isn't quite correct, the Bible is very clear that the death of a fetus is not considered murder nor is the fetus considered a living person. Therefore, it can't be murder.
I wish that not one fetus would ever be aborted, but that is not the way humanity works. We have a choice and rights over our bodies. Even if bad choices where made etc, we still should have a right over what goes on with our body. The only time this should not be so is when one is imprisoned by the State.
So it shouldn't be about laws, it's should be about an individuals personal and spiritual belief about the situation. The church's position should be one of education on the subject, not voting on the subject. It is sometimes guilt and shame that creates some abortion situation...and who should we blame for that? The church's attitude about this subject needs to change.
Robert J Hutton
New Member
Warm Christian greetings!
While it is good to try and persuade women not to have Abortions I would not advocate spending time, effort and money in campaigning to change the law so that Abortions are banned. I say this for the following reasons:
1) It would not stop women killing their children by having an Abortion. In Ireland it is virtually impossible to get an Abortion but it doesn't stop them. They simply get on a boat to mainland Britain and do it there. If Abortion was banned in one state in the US, they would get transport to another.
2) The time, money and effort spend on campaigning to change the law should be spent on sreading the Gospel. Let people's hearts be changed through converting to Christ and then their attitudes will change, eg on Abortion.
3) Even if you change the law people without Christ are still going to Hell. Would good would it do them to have a pro life position if they are not saved? Again, it is the Gospel they need.
I realise I am virtually inviting angry comments from some BB members but I strongly believe that our first priority is to spread the Gospel, everything else is a diversion from this.
Kind regards
Robert J Hutton
While it is good to try and persuade women not to have Abortions I would not advocate spending time, effort and money in campaigning to change the law so that Abortions are banned. I say this for the following reasons:
1) It would not stop women killing their children by having an Abortion. In Ireland it is virtually impossible to get an Abortion but it doesn't stop them. They simply get on a boat to mainland Britain and do it there. If Abortion was banned in one state in the US, they would get transport to another.
2) The time, money and effort spend on campaigning to change the law should be spent on sreading the Gospel. Let people's hearts be changed through converting to Christ and then their attitudes will change, eg on Abortion.
3) Even if you change the law people without Christ are still going to Hell. Would good would it do them to have a pro life position if they are not saved? Again, it is the Gospel they need.
I realise I am virtually inviting angry comments from some BB members but I strongly believe that our first priority is to spread the Gospel, everything else is a diversion from this.
Kind regards
Robert J Hutton
Genesis 2:7
Then the LORD God formed man of dust from the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being.
Ezekiel 37:9
...Thus says the Lord GOD, "Come from the four winds, O breath, and breathe on these slain, that they come to life."'"
Job 27:3
For as long as life is in me, And the breath of God is in my nostrils,
Genesis 7:22
of all that was on the dry land, all in whose nostrils was the breath of the spirit of life, died.
Genesis 7:15
So they went into the ark to Noah, by twos of all flesh in which was the breath of life.
Acts 17:25
nor is He served by human hands, as though He needed anything, since He Himself gives to all people life and breath and all things;
Revelation 11:11
But after the three and a half days, the breath of life from God came into them, and they stood on their feet; and great fear fell upon those who were watching them.
Ecclesiastes 3:21
Who knows that the breath of man ascends upward and the breath of the beast descends downward to the earth?
Ezekiel 37:5
"Thus says the Lord GOD to these bones, 'Behold, I will cause Or spirit, and so throughout the breath to enter you that you may come to life.
Ezekiel 37:10
So I prophesied as He commanded me, and the breath came into them, and they came to life and stood on their feet, an exceedingly great army.
Job 12:10
In whose hand is the life of every living thing, And the breath of all mankind?
Isaiah 2:22
Stop regarding man, whose breath of life is in his nostrils; For why should he be esteemed?
Genesis 6:17
"Behold, I, even I am bringing the flood of water upon the earth, to destroy all flesh in which is the breath of life, from under heaven; everything that is on the earth shall perish.
Job 33:4
"The Spirit of God has made me, And the breath of the Almighty gives me life.
Job 7:7
"Remember that my life is but breath; My eye will not again see good.
Ezekiel 37:14
"I will put My [Or breath] Spirit within you and you will come to life, and I will place you on your own land. Then you will know that I, the LORD, have spoken and done it," declares the LORD.'"
Daniel 5:23
... But the God in whose hand are your life-breath and all your ways, you have not glorified.
Then the LORD God formed man of dust from the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being.
Ezekiel 37:9
...Thus says the Lord GOD, "Come from the four winds, O breath, and breathe on these slain, that they come to life."'"
Job 27:3
For as long as life is in me, And the breath of God is in my nostrils,
Genesis 7:22
of all that was on the dry land, all in whose nostrils was the breath of the spirit of life, died.
Genesis 7:15
So they went into the ark to Noah, by twos of all flesh in which was the breath of life.
Acts 17:25
nor is He served by human hands, as though He needed anything, since He Himself gives to all people life and breath and all things;
Revelation 11:11
But after the three and a half days, the breath of life from God came into them, and they stood on their feet; and great fear fell upon those who were watching them.
Ecclesiastes 3:21
Who knows that the breath of man ascends upward and the breath of the beast descends downward to the earth?
Ezekiel 37:5
"Thus says the Lord GOD to these bones, 'Behold, I will cause Or spirit, and so throughout the breath to enter you that you may come to life.
Ezekiel 37:10
So I prophesied as He commanded me, and the breath came into them, and they came to life and stood on their feet, an exceedingly great army.
Job 12:10
In whose hand is the life of every living thing, And the breath of all mankind?
Isaiah 2:22
Stop regarding man, whose breath of life is in his nostrils; For why should he be esteemed?
Genesis 6:17
"Behold, I, even I am bringing the flood of water upon the earth, to destroy all flesh in which is the breath of life, from under heaven; everything that is on the earth shall perish.
Job 33:4
"The Spirit of God has made me, And the breath of the Almighty gives me life.
Job 7:7
"Remember that my life is but breath; My eye will not again see good.
Ezekiel 37:14
"I will put My [Or breath] Spirit within you and you will come to life, and I will place you on your own land. Then you will know that I, the LORD, have spoken and done it," declares the LORD.'"
Daniel 5:23
... But the God in whose hand are your life-breath and all your ways, you have not glorified.
Kathleen and I were at a concert when she was 7 months pregnant, and our baby was jumping all over the place, due to the noise I guess. (Becase she heard the noise and reacted) When she was born, she was moving her arms and had a VERY suprised look on her face, before her first breath.
She was ALIVE. In thge womb, and out.
Post-it, you are wrong. Abortion is evil, and it makes me very sad that ANY self-proffessed child of God could see it any other way.
She was ALIVE. In thge womb, and out.
Post-it, you are wrong. Abortion is evil, and it makes me very sad that ANY self-proffessed child of God could see it any other way.
I didn't say it, the Bible did. So I'm not wrong, This verse clearly allows the death via murder of a fetus with no punishment by the State or God.
Can you show me where I'm wrong, and believe me, I want to be wrong on this, but I can reason just as well as the next guy and I can't see any other interpretation.
Here is another instance where time and science has mandated that we change what constitutes sin. While abortion is not considered a sin in the Bible, time and Medicine has changed that situation. We can assist a 6 month old fetus to live outside the womb. It now should be considered a sin to abort after this period and with some other exceptions below.
I believe life begins at about 6 months reasoning that is the period it can survive outside the womb. Abortion after this time should be considered murder and under a "self defense" reason I agree that abortions after the 6 month period are not murder when the life of the woman is at risk at a rate greater than the normal percentage. However, in the case of rape, then an abortion at any time should be allowed since there is always a small percentage of death associated with giving birth and the mother had no choice in getting into a life threating situation of having a child.
At the age that an entity can breath, it is considered to be a life or come to life according to the Bible. 6 months is the key number.
[ August 03, 2002, 02:16 PM: Message edited by: post-it ]
Genesis 25:23 And the LORD said unto her, Two nations are in thy womb
Psalm 139:13 For thou hast possessed my reins: thou hast covered me in my mother’s womb.
Judges 13:5 ...for the child shall be a Nazarite unto God from the womb
Job 31:15 Did not he that made me in the womb make him?
Psalms 58:3 The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies.
Isaiah 48:8 ...for I knew that thou wouldest deal very treacherously, and wast called a transgressor from the womb.
Jeremiah 1:5 Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.
Luke 1:41 And it came to pass, that, when Elisabeth heard the salutation of Mary, the babe leaped in her womb; and Elisabeth was filled with the Holy Ghost:
PostIt, there's also plenty of scriptural evidence recognizing us before we drew our first breath of oxygen....
Psalm 139:13 For thou hast possessed my reins: thou hast covered me in my mother’s womb.
Judges 13:5 ...for the child shall be a Nazarite unto God from the womb
Job 31:15 Did not he that made me in the womb make him?
Psalms 58:3 The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies.
Isaiah 48:8 ...for I knew that thou wouldest deal very treacherously, and wast called a transgressor from the womb.
Jeremiah 1:5 Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.
Luke 1:41 And it came to pass, that, when Elisabeth heard the salutation of Mary, the babe leaped in her womb; and Elisabeth was filled with the Holy Ghost:
PostIt, there's also plenty of scriptural evidence recognizing us before we drew our first breath of oxygen....
Well now, we have a choice, post-it...
If it is not alive, is it dead? No... it is a functioning system reproducing its own cells with its own DNA, exhibiting all the required signs of life.
Can it then be killed? Yes, it can. It can be forced to stop functioning.
Is it perhaps not a human? No... it is a human. It is not an ostrich or a fern, certainly. It has human DNA unique and separate from the mother's.
This "thing" in the womb of a woman, then, is a living human being. There is no other possible definition for it biologically.
And to kill another human being with premeditation of purpose is murder.
To kill another human being totally by accident is manslaughter.
And there are various degrees in between.
Abortion is premeditated, planned, termination of a human life. Otherwise defined as murder.
This is how you quoted the Exodus passage:
"And if men struggle with each other and strike a woman with child so that she has a miscarriage, yet there is no further injury, he shall surely be fined as the woman's husband may demand of him; and he shall pay as the judges decide. But if there is any further injury, then you shall appoint as a penalty life for life." (Exodus 21:22-23)
I don't know what translation you are reading, but the Hebrew indicates a premature delivery, which is not a miscarriage because the latter term indicates the death of the child. But that is why there is the term "no further injury"! That is referring to the child. If it is born alive and there is no further injury, then the man who hurt the woman will pay as the woman's husband directs. IF, however, there is 'further injury' then it will be life for life! In other words, if the child dies, the man also must die for killing the child.
I do suggest you get a better translation and a Concordance or two...
Here it is in the King James:
If men strive, and hurt a woman whith child, so that her fruit depart [from her], and yet no mischief follow: he shall be surely punished, according as the woman's husband will lay upon him; and he shall pay as the judges [determine].
And if [any] mischief follow, then thou shalt give life for life..
and in the NIV:
If men who are fighting hit a pregnant woman and she gives birth prematurely but there is no serious injury, the offender must be fined whatever the woman's husband demands adn the court allows. But if there is serious injury, you are to take life for life...
If it is not alive, is it dead? No... it is a functioning system reproducing its own cells with its own DNA, exhibiting all the required signs of life.
Can it then be killed? Yes, it can. It can be forced to stop functioning.
Is it perhaps not a human? No... it is a human. It is not an ostrich or a fern, certainly. It has human DNA unique and separate from the mother's.
This "thing" in the womb of a woman, then, is a living human being. There is no other possible definition for it biologically.
And to kill another human being with premeditation of purpose is murder.
To kill another human being totally by accident is manslaughter.
And there are various degrees in between.
Abortion is premeditated, planned, termination of a human life. Otherwise defined as murder.
This is how you quoted the Exodus passage:
"And if men struggle with each other and strike a woman with child so that she has a miscarriage, yet there is no further injury, he shall surely be fined as the woman's husband may demand of him; and he shall pay as the judges decide. But if there is any further injury, then you shall appoint as a penalty life for life." (Exodus 21:22-23)
I don't know what translation you are reading, but the Hebrew indicates a premature delivery, which is not a miscarriage because the latter term indicates the death of the child. But that is why there is the term "no further injury"! That is referring to the child. If it is born alive and there is no further injury, then the man who hurt the woman will pay as the woman's husband directs. IF, however, there is 'further injury' then it will be life for life! In other words, if the child dies, the man also must die for killing the child.
I do suggest you get a better translation and a Concordance or two...
Here it is in the King James:
If men strive, and hurt a woman whith child, so that her fruit depart [from her], and yet no mischief follow: he shall be surely punished, according as the woman's husband will lay upon him; and he shall pay as the judges [determine].
And if [any] mischief follow, then thou shalt give life for life..
and in the NIV:
If men who are fighting hit a pregnant woman and she gives birth prematurely but there is no serious injury, the offender must be fined whatever the woman's husband demands adn the court allows. But if there is serious injury, you are to take life for life...
I totally agree with Helen, here. In fact, I explained that exact passage on another thread about abortion.
I know that many pro-choice groups like to use that passage as a "proof" that Christians are wrong about abortion being murder. Lots of people can quote it, but not everyone hides the Word in their heart and uses it like a double-edged sword.
As a side note (not necessarily about abortion)...
The twisting of God's Word is a very effective ploy of the devil.
He did it to Eve.
He did it to Jesus.
And he does it to people all over the world, every day.
It's one of his best tools. And the reason it works so well, is that many people who like to "argue" the Bible and use it to defend their personal beliefs don't know it well enough to even quote it correctly, let alone discuss it with reason and conviction. A valuable lesson to us all.
Peace-
YSIC
Scarlett O.
<><
I know that many pro-choice groups like to use that passage as a "proof" that Christians are wrong about abortion being murder. Lots of people can quote it, but not everyone hides the Word in their heart and uses it like a double-edged sword.
As a side note (not necessarily about abortion)...
The twisting of God's Word is a very effective ploy of the devil.
He did it to Eve.
He did it to Jesus.
And he does it to people all over the world, every day.
It's one of his best tools. And the reason it works so well, is that many people who like to "argue" the Bible and use it to defend their personal beliefs don't know it well enough to even quote it correctly, let alone discuss it with reason and conviction. A valuable lesson to us all.
Peace-
YSIC
Scarlett O.
<><
Your little finger argument is one of the silliest arguments I have ever read on this subject. Your little finger is not a unique organism with its own DNA. An unborn child is, from the moment of conception.
I can only suppose you never studied biology to think that an unborn child is part of the mother. That could not be farther from the truth! In a strictly functional sense, it is more like a parasite! Totally separate and yet living off of another organism. The distinct uniqueness of the child is the reason the mother gets morning sick! It is the reason some children are born with Rh problems. It is the reason mothers can give birth to sons!
Your argument, sir, is an argument of complete ignorance where the biology of the situation is concerned.
And if 'breathing' is your definition of a child living, what about the blue babies? Those that are born refusing to breathe for a bit? Do they suddenly become 'alive' because they finally take that first breath? Or were they alive before that and then dying if they DON'T take that first breath?
I'm really hoping you can see how far into left field your logic is where this is concerned.
I can only suppose you never studied biology to think that an unborn child is part of the mother. That could not be farther from the truth! In a strictly functional sense, it is more like a parasite! Totally separate and yet living off of another organism. The distinct uniqueness of the child is the reason the mother gets morning sick! It is the reason some children are born with Rh problems. It is the reason mothers can give birth to sons!
Your argument, sir, is an argument of complete ignorance where the biology of the situation is concerned.
Babies at 6 months generally cannot breathe on their own but without modern technology die, as Jacqueline Kennedy's third child did, of hyaline membrane disease. And you said at "about" the sixth month into term. How close is "about"? 5 1/2 months? Are you aware that dream patterns are already showing up in their brain waves before three months? Are you aware they react to painful stimuli before then?
And if 'breathing' is your definition of a child living, what about the blue babies? Those that are born refusing to breathe for a bit? Do they suddenly become 'alive' because they finally take that first breath? Or were they alive before that and then dying if they DON'T take that first breath?
I'm really hoping you can see how far into left field your logic is where this is concerned.
My 12 day old son at 22 weeks gestation:
http://members.truepath.com/fubc/Baby.gif
Lookes pretty human to me.
http://members.truepath.com/fubc/Baby.gif
Lookes pretty human to me.
Not applicable to the question. Adam was created an adult.
N/A
Note the two distinct statements joined by a conjunction.
N/A. This still has nothing to do with an unborn child.
It appears that no unborn children went into the ark... but you've proven nothing else.
Life and breath are again seen as distinct from one another.
Unborn babies don't require resurrecting... they are already alive.
...and so on and so on.
I hope this is one of those instances where you have posted things that you don't agree with just to gain insight. Otherwise, you have once again twisted scripture badly out of context.
My finger's DNA was derived from my Body's DNA, a fetus' DNA was derived from the mother and Father's DNA. Same thing!
If the fetus could be removed and placed in another woman and it could continue living then I could agree with this point, but since it can't it can only mean it is part of the mothers body, separate only in that it can be at some future date... 6 months.
That is why I said earlier (top of the page) that with "medical" help they can breath at 6 months thus they are considered alive, it doesn't matter how the breath is being taken, it is just that it is breathing that is the difference between something that is living and something that is alive.
[ August 04, 2002, 04:35 AM: Message edited by: post-it ]