Abortion?

[Joseph_Botwinick]

Reviewing a conversation about abortion on a liberal board today led me to ask the following questions:

1. Do you believe abortion is murder?
2. If abortion were to be made illegal and recognized as murder, what do you think the punishment should be?

My answers would be as follows:

1. Yes, I believe abortion is murder.
2. If abortion were to be made illegal and recognized as murder, if someone was found guilty of performing one or having one done, I think they should be executed, just like any other murderer.

These opinions have been labeled as ignorant by the folks on the other board who also post here on this board. What say you?

Joseph Botwinick

 

[Liz Ward]

Agree. However number 2 won't happen and perhaps it is counter-productive to make any suggestion that it might. The pro-choice-to-kill lobby are already convinced (or claim they are) that pro-lifers want to ban all forms of contraception and to out women in jail for having miscarriages.

I'd have no problem with a system whereby the abortionist only was punished, but that punishment would be sevewre enough to make sure that none would risk performing illegal abortions. Several years in jail as a minimum ought to do the job, i would think.

Liz

 

[TCassidy]

Are there any exceptions? What about to save the life of the mother?

 

[Paul33]

For abortions outside of "saving the life of the mother, the punishment should be the same as for any other murder.

 

[Terry_Herrington]

Originally posted by TCassidy:
Are there any exceptions? What about to save the life of the mother?

To me, this exception would be acceptable. When my wife was delivering our son back in 1976, there was some complications. I told the doctor that if there was a choice to be made, he should choose my wife. Thank God, this decision did not have to be made.

 

[mareese]

1. I believe most abortions are murder.

2. Intent and circumstances would play into any possible law enforcement decisions.

I would favor the idea of regulated abortion for non-emergency cases in which a sub-section of the courthouse is set up to hear requests for such. Individual circumstances would be considered and permission would be granted based on those findings. Ideally, 99% would be refused, with those being granted based on age, method of conception, and extenuating circumstances.

Above and beyond that, parents should be forced to take responsibility for the actions of their children. For example, if a 15 year old is determined physically and mentally capable of carrying a child she has conceived from her own actions, the parents should legally bear the responsibility of supporting her child until she is of legal age, just as they are responsible for any other actions of their underage children. The decision for adoption, of course, would still be available.

For clarification purposes, an emergency in which a court decision would not be sought is any situation in which the life or future physical health of the mother is in danger, or the doctor determines that it will be should the pregnancy continue.

A non-emergency situation would be any situation other than the above.
An example of an abortion which may be approved would typically be children who are quite young, or pregnant as the result of incest and rape.

 

[Bob Krajcik]

I have worked in Pro-Life groups, and have been nominated for office in a local Pro-Life group (but declined the nomination). The point is, I have worked to combat the pro-choice agenda.

My opinion, there should be exception regarding abortion, but such exception is narrow in scope, and limited in application.

My understanding is Genesis 9:5-6 is valid yet today. Regarding punishment, do you think David should have had his life taken? He murdered the husband of Bathsheba. What about the child that was to die? 2Sam 12

 

[Artimaeus]

Abortion is the taking of a human life. All protections and decisions should be made based on this truth. Abortions that save the mother are justifiable homicides just like any other justifiable homicide. It is not an exception to the "abortion is murder" concept. That would be like saying that all killing is murder and therefore wrong. God ordered killing and it wasn't wrong, it would have been wrong NOT to kill.

 

[StefanM]

1. Most abortions are murders.

2. Punish the doctors, not the mothers. 10 years in prison plus a very large fine would probably do the trick.

 

[Joseph_Botwinick]

Originally posted by StefanM:
1. Most abortions are murders.

2. Punish the doctors, not the mothers. 10 years in prison plus a very large fine would probably do the trick.

1. I believe all abortions are murder.

2. Why not punish both since they are both complicit in the murder. If they commit murder, then they should pay the same price as a murderer...they should be executed.

Joseph Botwinick

 

[TCassidy]

Originally posted by Terry_Herrington:
To me, this exception would be acceptable. When my wife was delivering our son back in 1976, there was some complications. I told the doctor that if there was a choice to be made, he should choose my wife. Thank God, this decision did not have to be made.

I made exactly that decision in September, 1976. I had to choose between losing my wife or losing both of them. I chose to keep my wife. I have not regretted that choice once in the past 29 years.

 

[Karen]

Joseph,
Where would you stop though?
In the pro-life work I have done, most of the girls I urged to not get an abortion were urged into it by parents, boyfriends, or friends.
I disagree that the mother should face the death penalty. I know that "victim" terminology is often overdone, but the mothers in this situation really are victims, too.
In any case, talking about your mythical ideal, that will not happen (thankfully IMO) only takes attention away from what can be done.
Such as informed consent and parental notification laws, while we keep trying to overturn Roe v. Wade.

Karen

 

[Paul33]

If you punish the doctor, loss of license, jail time, etc., there won't be anyone left to do abortions.

If a woman seeks to kill her own child on her own through herbal remedies or other means and is discovered, she ought to be tried for murder/manslaughter.

 

[Joseph_Botwinick]

Originally posted by Karen:
Joseph,
Where would you stop though?
In the pro-life work I have done, most of the girls I urged to not get an abortion were urged into it by parents, boyfriends, or friends.
I disagree that the mother should face the death penalty. I know that "victim" terminology is often overdone, but the mothers in this situation really are victims, too.
In any case, talking about your mythical ideal, that will not happen (thankfully IMO) only takes attention away from what can be done.
Such as informed consent and parental notification laws, while we keep trying to overturn Roe v. Wade.

Karen

Everyone complicit in murdering the child should be executed. The abortion doctor could not do it without the "mother's" consent. She is not a victim. She is one of the murderers.

Joseph Botwinick

 

[TexasSky]

I think we need to approach this one step at a time. During a Sunday School class a woman who is the Assistant Principal of a High School shared with us an issue that came up at her school.

A young girl came to her, begging her to "hide" her from her father. The girl was from a divorced home. The parents had joint custody, with each parent having full parental rights. The girl was pregnant, and wanted to have the child. The father was determined that she would have an abortion because he believed she was too young to give birth. The mother felt the child should make her own decision.

According to court orders, if the father wanted to pick up the child, the school would be violation of the law if they denied him, even though the child did not want to go with him, and even though they knew he was advocating a medical procedure the child and the mother objected to.

The VP's answer was to release the child to the mother first. Under those terms, if the mother violated the visitation/custody arrangement, it was between them and not the school.

This story was shared with us last year, and it has haunted me ever since. How can any woman, minor or not, be forced INTO an abortion??!!

 

[Joseph_Botwinick]

The premise of this hypothetical thread is that abortion is recognized by our government as murder, and therefore, illegal. Your story has nothing really to do with the thread. If the parents facilitate the murder, then they are equally guilty and should be executed. If the parents force the murder upon the girl, then the girl truly is one of the victims. It isn't too hard to work out a little common sense if you really try.

Joseph Botwinick

 

[Pennsylvania Jim]

If you accept legalized murder, forcing someone to commit it is realtively minor.

Sad, isn't it?

 

[TexasSky]

Joseph,

Why do you always show such hatred and rudeness?

I've worked years to stop abortion. In fact, I worked to stop it back when Roe vs Wade first came up.

In the many years I've worked in this area, one thing I discovered was that people like you, by choosing NOT to pay attention to the small battles in this field we CAN win, have allowed abortions to happen that COULD have been prevented.

By saying, "It doesn't matter if that child is a victim, we need to stop all murder," you have basically ignored the fact that you have a VERY good legal chance of getting laws passed to prevent ANYONE from a forced abortion, and therefore cutting down on other abortions.

This doesn't mean you stop trying to end abortion totally. It means that WHILE you work on that, you chip away at the mass murder.

One of the major "excuses" for abortion today is that "unwanted children are better off dead." Yet, I see, time and time again, people like you vote DOWN laws designed to make adoption easier-and-cheaper, and abortion harder-and-more-expensive because they say, "We want all or nothing."

Well, I want all, but I want SOMETHING while I'm waiting for ALL.

I want to save as many lives as I can in any WAY I can. I'm sorry you don't see that as important.

 

[TexasSky]

P.S. - The simple fact is - If life begins at conception (or even earlier when God deems it should become life) abortion is murder.

If life begins at birth, abortion isn't murder.

If life begins somewhere in between there, when a heart forms or when a brain forms, or whenever some development milestone in vitro happens, abortion is only murder if it happens after that fact.

I happen to believe that life begins when God determines it should, and that before a Mother ever knows she is pregnant, God has created life.

 

[Joseph_Botwinick]

Originally posted by TexasSky:
Joseph,

Why do you always show such hatred and rudeness?

No hatred or rudeness. Just my opinion. Why did you just smear me for no reason?

I've worked years to stop abortion. In fact, I worked to stop it back when Roe vs Wade first came up.

In the many years I've worked in this area, one thing I discovered was that people like you, by choosing NOT to pay attention to the small battles in this field we CAN win, have allowed abortions to happen that COULD have been prevented.[/QUOTE]

Yes, I see your way seems to have worked really well so far. Anyway, I recognize all to well to change things incrementally. That is, however, not what this thread is all about.

By saying, "It doesn't matter if that child is a victim, we need to stop all murder," you have basically ignored the fact that you have a VERY good legal chance of getting laws passed to prevent ANYONE from a forced abortion, and therefore cutting down on other abortions. [/QUOTE]

I never said any such thing. I didn't say it didn't matter that the child is a victim. I said that if the child willingly participates in the murder, they are not victims at all, but murderers themselves and should be treated as such. If the girl is forced to have an abortion, then she is a victim. Did you even read what I wrote?

This doesn't mean you stop trying to end abortion totally. It means that WHILE you work on that, you chip away at the mass murder. [/QUOTE]

Agreed. But again, this has absolutely nothing to do with the topic of this thread. Why don't you try going back and actually reading the thread?

One of the major "excuses" for abortion today is that "unwanted children are better off dead." Yet, I see, time and time again, people like you vote DOWN laws designed to make adoption easier-and-cheaper, and abortion harder-and-more-expensive because they say, "We want all or nothing." [/QUOTE]

That was a really stupid statement you just made based on total ignorance about where I stand politically and what I support and do not support politically. It also has nothing to do with the topic of this thread. Why don't you go back and read the original post again REALLY CAREFULLY and then try responding? Can you not even hypothetically imagine an ideal society where abortion is recognized as murder by the government and therefore, illegal for the sake of this discussion? If not, I would say that your vision is too small and probably is a good indicator as to why you have made so little of a difference with all you claim you have done for the pro-life movement. Wise up.

Well, I want all, but I want SOMETHING while I'm waiting for ALL.

I want to save as many lives as I can in any WAY I can. I'm sorry you don't see that as important. [/QUOTE]

Again, another stupid statement based totally on ignorance. Now, go back and read the whole thread and try to respond again on topic.

Joseph Botwinick