Abortion?

[Joseph_Botwinick]

Originally posted by TexasSky:
P.S. - The simple fact is - If life begins at conception (or even earlier when God deems it should become life) abortion is murder.

If life begins at birth, abortion isn't murder.

If life begins somewhere in between there, when a heart forms or when a brain forms, or whenever some development milestone in vitro happens, abortion is only murder if it happens after that fact.

I happen to believe that life begins when God determines it should, and that before a Mother ever knows she is pregnant, God has created life.

Do you have a point to make that actually has anything to do whatsoever with the topic of the thread?

Joseph Botwinick

 

[TexasSky]

[slang removed]

Excuse me Joseph, I read the topic of this thread as "Abortion?" I then read a lot of discussion on whether it was murder or not. So, wow, imagine how stupid it is of me to assume that the discussion might actually involve ~why~ some people call it murder, some don't, and how to prevent it when you think it is.

I didn't realize you just wanted to make a pretend-game of a very serious discussion. I'll let you go on with your hyptothetical games.

Have fun.

[ May 08, 2005, 10:11 PM: Message edited by: Dr. Bob ]

 

[Joseph_Botwinick]

Try staying on topic, and perhaps, even expanding your vision of what the pro-life movement could accomplish, and maybe you won't be so irrelevant to this discussion in your statements and you might even become more effective in your endeavors to end abortion. If you can't stay on topic and control your emotional, irrational responses, then please don't respond anymore.

Now,

Back to the original discussion:

1. Do you believe abortion is murder?

2. (TS, here is the hypothetical part. Let's see if you can understand the topic of the thread): If abortion were to be made illegal and recognized as murder, what do you think the punishment should be?


Joseph Botwinick

 

[TexasSky]

Joseph,

How has anything you have posted in this thread saved even one life?

It took years, and years and years, to stop partial birth abortions, but we didn't give up and we did stop them.

Yes, you are rude.
Yes, you are hateful.
No - you aren't very Christian in your responses.

I will no longer respond to you at all, as I truly feel that you are one of the most hateful persons I have ever encountered on a board that professes to be Christian.

 

[Joseph_Botwinick]

Originally posted by TexasSky:
Joseph,

How has anything you have posted in this thread saved even one life?

It took years, and years and years, to stop partial birth abortions, but we didn't give up and we did stop them.

Yes, you are rude.
Yes, you are hateful.
No - you aren't very Christian in your responses.

I will no longer respond to you at all, as I truly feel that you are one of the most hateful persons I have ever encountered on a board that professes to be Christian.

My life has instantly been enriched 4 fold by the promise of your silence. Please, keep your promise and stay quiet if you have nothing intelligent to say that is on topic.

As to PBA, I also worked hard to have that banned and was very happy when Bush signed the bill. That is part of the reason (not all of the reason) that I voted for him again. But, don't get too happy yet as I believe it was declared unconstitutional by some activist judge about a day or two after being signed by Bush. The fight is not over yet. If you don't want to participate in the thread, then go away.

Joseph Botwinick

 

[Joseph_Botwinick]

Originally posted by TexasSky:
Joseph,

How has anything you have posted in this thread saved even one life?

Same question back to you. As a matter of fact, how does the Welcome forum, Announcement forum, Bible Versions forum, Baptist History forum, Baptist Colleges Forum, Missions forum, Calvinism / Arminianism forum, Music Ministry forum, History Forum, Books forum, Computers forum, Clean Humor Forum, Homeschooling forum, Hobby forum, Sports forum, and Games forum save even one unborn life. Perhaps you are wasting your time on a discussion board that focuses so much space to stuff that is meaningless to you and doesn't save lives.

It took years, and years and years, to stop partial birth abortions, but we didn't give up and we did stop them.[/QUOTE]

And then you got overturned a few days later by a judge.

Yes, you are rude.
Yes, you are hateful.
No - you aren't very Christian in your responses. [/QUOTE]

You are a very judgmental hypocrite who cannot stay on topic with a very elitist better than thou attitude.

Joseph Botwinick

 

[GrannyGumbo]

My answer...

1. Yes, I believe ALL abortion is murder.
2. If abortion were to be made illegal and recognized as murder, if someone was found guilty of performing one or having one done, I think they should be executed, just like any other murderer. I think they should die anyhow, just like the little baby they murdered, or had murdered. And it IS a baby...when's the last time you heard someone ask, "oh, when's your fetus due?"

Everytime I'm out there on the streets, like yesterday, holding a pic of baby Malachi, it breaks my heart. Count his fingers, his toes, look at his nose, his mouth, tongue, the crumpled pieces of his life...then say he's not a baby. That picture preaches & the people hate it.

How many pastors preached a mother's day sermon on those mamas who have murdered their babies. Not many, I'm sure.

 

[Joseph_Botwinick]

Granny,

Thank you for your on topic response. I agree.

Joseph Botwinick

 

[StefanM]

What about an ectopic pregnancy? Would aborting life in that case be murder?

 

[Joseph_Botwinick]

I will have to think and pray about that. I will get back to you.

Joseph Botwinick

 

[Dr. Bob]

Abortion is murder. If outlawed, we have laws that proscribe penalties for murder.

If there is a clear choice - the mother will die if the ectopic pregnancy is not stopped, then the choice will always go with the viable life that is proven, i.e. the mother.

Caveat: Two personal friends have been told by doctors "you have uterine or cervical cancer; you will die if you don't abort the baby". That is NOT a true life/death issue. These friends carried to term, then went on to fight the cancer and are doing quite well. That is just a doctor's educated guess.

If however the baby's development WILL ABSOLUTELY cause the mother's death, I would vote on the side of the mother. Now THAT is rarer than rare.

 

[Terry_Herrington]

Originally posted by TCassidy:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Terry_Herrington:
To me, this exception would be acceptable. When my wife was delivering our son back in 1976, there was some complications. I told the doctor that if there was a choice to be made, he should choose my wife. Thank God, this decision did not have to be made.

I made exactly that decision in September, 1976. I had to choose between losing my wife or losing both of them. I chose to keep my wife. I have not regretted that choice once in the past 29 years. </font>[/QUOTE]Brother, my heart goes out to you. I am truly sorry that you had to make such a decision at all.

It is extremely easy to sit behind a computer and casually say what we would or would not do. However, when faced with these tough choices and the pressures they bring, it is often quiet another matter. I know that I always said I would not want my loved ones to have to depend on a machine for life-support. I was even adamant about just what I would do in such a situation. However, in 1994 after my mother had a massive stroke and was put on a ventilator, things became much more personal. One doctor said that she would never recover and that I should choose to turn the machine off. I angrily told him that that was my mother laying in that bed and that I would give here every opportunity to recover. Although she was finally able to breath on her own, she never regained consciousness and died ten months later. Looking back I see that the doctor was probably right, but I would make the same decision if I had to do it over again.

 

[TexasSky]

Most pro-life people would not condemn someone who chose for a mother to survive when a choice between mother and unborn child has to be made. Most abortions are not about that though.

I wouldn't want to kill those who have abortions anyway. I believe that when God said, "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone," he meant any sin. I think when said to forgive 70 times 7 he meant everyone. It is His place to judge the sinner. I would simply try my best to stop the sin.

 

[Rachel]

Originally posted by Dr. Bob:
Abortion is murder. If outlawed, we have laws that proscribe penalties for murder.

If there is a clear choice - the mother will die if the ectopic pregnancy is not stopped, then the choice will always go with the viable life that is proven, i.e. the mother.

Caveat: Two personal friends have been told by doctors "you have uterine or cervical cancer; you will die if you don't abort the baby". That is NOT a true life/death issue. These friends carried to term, then went on to fight the cancer and are doing quite well. That is just a doctor's educated guess.

If however the baby's development WILL ABSOLUTELY cause the mother's death, I would vote on the side of the mother. Now THAT is rarer than rare.

Yep, I agree.

 

[Bob Alkire]

Originally posted by TCassidy:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Terry_Herrington:
To me, this exception would be acceptable. When my wife was delivering our son back in 1976, there was some complications. I told the doctor that if there was a choice to be made, he should choose my wife. Thank God, this decision did not have to be made.

I made exactly that decision in September, 1976. I had to choose between losing my wife or losing both of them. I chose to keep my wife. I have not regretted that choice once in the past 29 years. </font>[/QUOTE]Each case is different and I know that. On 11/21/64 I made a decision with my wife that we would try and keep both of them and God gave us our wish. Our daughter was born 5 week early and alot of great care by good doctors and God's grace most of all and she has been a blessing.
I also have a 10 year old who her mother was going to abort if my wife and I didn't take her child at birth.

 

[Dr. Bob]

Our CareNet Christian pregnancy center just moved into new facilities and got its ultra sound program running. (Supplied by Focus on the Family to many clinics across America). After weeks of qualifying testing, etc, the first "real" ultra sound was held this week.

The girl and her mom came in and looked at the screen, and asked why they were moving the probe in little jerks. Nurse said, "That is the heartbeating of your baby".

The young girl was absolutely speechless and is now involved in the program. The reality of the preciousness of life overwhelmed her and made her change her mind.

Just shared in our church service today and thought it would encourage you all that we ARE winning the battle, one life at a time.

 

[Rachel]

By Dr. Bob----Just shared in our church service today and thought it would encourage you all that we ARE winning the battle, one life at a time.

That is very encouraging, what you and Texas said earlier.

 

[Liz Ward]

Originally posted by TexasSky:
This story was shared with us last year, and it has haunted me ever since. How can any woman, minor or not, be forced INTO an abortion??!!

It happens all the time. Just hang out on some abortion recovery lists (keeping one's mouth shut is the difficult part about that!) and you'll see lots of similar stories. I heard one just recently involving, wait for it, a BAPTIST PASTOR pushing his daughter into an abortion.

A couple of others stick in the memory: one involved a boyfriend threatening to "hunt down your whore ass and do the job myself if i have to" on the grounds that he already had one child to support (by another woman). This woman was so distressed that the killing facility actually offered to put her out the back door and call the police(!). Another involved a man, with three children by his first wife, telling his second wife that, OK it was her decision, but please couldn't she see sense - he already had three children to support and didn't want another at his time of life. She had her baby killed and her husband couldn't understand why she wasn't getting enthusiastic about buying Christmas presents for his children who were living with his first wife and visiting over Christmas. This one only used emotional pressure and she could have stood up to him, but often it IS physical. Violence against women actually goes UP when they are pregnant, it isn't difficult to work out why

Liz

 

[Gold Dragon]

Originally posted by Joseph_Botwinick:
1. Do you believe abortion is murder?
2. If abortion were to be made illegal and recognized as murder, what do you think the punishment should be?

1. Yes I believe abortion is murder.

Regarding the appropriate punishment, one thing to keep in mind is that in our current legal systems, there are degrees of murder.

First Degree : Premeditated intent
Second Degree : "Heat of the moment", "adequate provocation"
Third Degree : Involuntary Manslaughter

In Canada, we also have a classification called infanticide which is a mother killing her baby while recovering from birth and in a disturbed state of mind. It comes with a maximum penalty of 5 years.

So if abortion were illegal here, the mother would likely be charged with infanticide and the doctor would probably get first degree murder.

I'm not saying that is the appropriate punishment, but that is the likely situation we would have right now.

 

[Baptist in Richmond]

Reviewing a conversation about abortion on a liberal board today led me to ask the following questions:

1. Do you believe abortion is murder?
2. If abortion were to be made illegal and recognized as murder, what do you think the punishment should be?

1. Personally, I believe that abortion is murder.
2. Well, abortion is never going to be made illegal, but if it were, I would imagine that the penalty would be defined by those who would overturn it. I am against the death penalty, so I would not support the execution of those who would break the law.

But abortion is never going to be overturned, so I guess that it won't matter.

BTW, could we all tone it down a little? Here's a great tip: before you post, click on the "Preview Post" button and think about what you have written. Not everyone who is reading this board is a Believer - think about that before you write.

Regards to all of you,

BiR