About Hebrews' warning: Do not draw back to perdition

[Martin Marprelate]

The evidence of salvation is not needed to know we are saved.

O Boy!
I Cor. 6:9. 'Do you not know that the unrighteous will not enter the kingdom of God? DO NOT BE DECEIVED!' It looks like we've got another deceived person come on the forum. That's OK. You'll feel right at home here.

God is the judge of whether we have accepted His gift.

He certainly is! "Many will say to Me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name and done may wonders in Your name?' And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you [N.B. not, "I knew you once and then forgot about you"]; depart from Me, all you who practise lawlessness!'" (Matthew 7:22-23).

Now if some mom got saved, and started to be a better mom, and have more love and start to learn things, we could have some preacher say she had no fruit. Maybe she got tired of the church and the baloney and didn't have time for it or something, so some hypocrite says she 'departed'.

'...Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as is the manner of some.....' (Hebrews 10:25).
'They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out that it might be made manifest, that none of them were of us' (1 John 2:19). Leaving a church because you get tired of it, or because you think it's baloney, or because you don't have time for it is, to put it mildly, not a great evidence of salvation.

 

[dad1]

O Boy!
I Cor. 6:9. 'Do you not know that the unrighteous will not enter the kingdom of God? DO NOT BE DECEIVED!' It looks like we've got another deceived person come on the forum. That's OK. You'll feel right at home here.

The unrighteous are the unsaved. Not the sinning saints. We are righteous because Jesus makes us that way! Not because we 'keep ourselves in some church or keep ourselves saved and sinless'!

He certainly is! "Many will say to Me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name and done may wonders in Your name?' And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you [N.B. not, "I knew you once and then forgot about you"]; depart from Me, all you who practise lawlessness!'" (Matthew 7:22-23).

None of those folks were saved. The only unpardonable sin is to reject Jesus and His salvation and Holy Spirit.

'...Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as is the manner of some.....'

(Hebrews 10:25).

In this day and age that would likely not involve the church system! If it did, it would not mean weekly rites of repetition and ceremony.

'They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out that it might be made manifest, that none of them were of us'

(1 John 2:19). Leaving a church because you get tired of it, or because you think it's baloney, or because you don't have time for it is, to put it mildly, not a great evidence of salvation.

Going to church is not a great evidence either! If some insincere spies were faking it and among the persecuted early believers, yes, when they leave it is because they were never sincere. That does not apply to believers. Period.

 

[Internet Theologian]

The unrighteous are the unsaved. Not the sinning saints. We are righteous because Jesus makes us that way! Not because we 'keep ourselves in some church or keep ourselves saved and sinless'!

You're missing the forest for the trees. The epistle is written to believers in the church (1 Corinthians) as a warning to those who would live in a lifestyle of sin and expect eternal life. He does not want anyone to be deceived. Perhaps this would be those in the presence of the Lord in Matthew 7:21ff.

Also no one is saying we keep ourselves saved, your merely showing your inability to distinguish between evidence of conversion and works salvation. And yes, there are much Scriptures that show there are evidences of true conversion, and evidences of false conversion.

None of those folks were saved.

Agree there...

The only unpardonable sin is to reject Jesus and His salvation and Holy Spirit.

Not really. There are some going to hell who never rejected either as they are already under condemnation; John 3:17; Ephesians 2:3.

In this day and age that would likely not involve the church system! If it did, it would not mean weekly rites of repetition and ceremony.

This is how you treat the passage in Hebrews?

Going to church is not a great evidence either! If some insincere spies were faking it and among the persecuted early believers, yes, when they leave it is because they were never sincere. That does not apply to believers. Period.

No one said it applies to believers - you're too busy conflating things to listen to the Word of God and presuppose what others are thinking and believe. This is why you come up with straw man arguments.

 

[dad1]

You're missing the forest for the trees. The epistle is written to believers in the church (1 Corinthians) as a warning to those who would live in a lifestyle of sin and expect eternal life. He does not want anyone to be deceived. Perhaps this would be those in the presence of the Lord in Matthew 7:21ff.

The same folks who had a guy that was having sex with his mother if I recall. The so called lifestyle of sin is a a phrase that is a haven for cranks and religious fanatics to try to judge others for little sins! The harlot was saved by Jesus. The tax collector. The bible is full of sinful men and their deeds. The sin is to reject Jesus. God judges our works after that not you. Yes spies who were insincere would have been among believers! That doesn't mean that believers or saved folks were not really saved.

Also no one is saying we keep ourselves saved, your merely showing your inability to distinguish between evidence of conversion and works salvation. And yes, there are much Scriptures that show there are evidences of true conversion, and evidences of false conversion.

No there are not. The saved are always saved, and those with not so great works get not so great rewards.

Not really. There are some going to hell who never rejected either as they are already under condemnation; John 3:17; Ephesians 2:3.

No having condemnation does not mean going to hell! No more than having depresion, or doubts, or fears of the enemy does. We are not to fall into his condemnation trip.

No one said it applies to believers - you're too busy conflating things to listen to the Word of God and presuppose what others are thinking and believe. This is why you come up with straw man arguments.

That means nothing. Some preacher can claim half the folks in his building are not really saved. Not really believers. Soon as they sin...or get caught that is..that confirms it in their minds! Absurd.

 

[Browner]

s

Leaving a church because you get tired of it, or because you think it's baloney, or because you don't have time for it is, to put it mildly, not a great evidence of salvation.

Yes, IF the Lord actually placed one in a particular assembly,
he/she should never leave ... unless the Lord okays the move!

However, perhaps spiritual truths such as this one
have only been revealed to Spirit-filled believers ...
and by this I mean those who have baptized with the Holy Spirit,
which is Jesus' anointing upon certain believers for some kind of
God-ordained ministry (as opposed to the normative man-ordained).

It has been the many man-ordained types that discontinued
God's method of evangelising (and conducting church meetings).
Yes, these people throughout history have been/are the cessationists!
These have been spiritually deceived by Satan via church leaders.

 

[revmwc]

s
Yes, IF the Lord actually placed one in a particular assembly,
he/she should never leave ... unless the Lord okays the move!

However, perhaps spiritual truths such as this one
have only been revealed to Spirit-filled believers ...
and by this I mean those who have baptized with the Holy Spirit,
which is Jesus' anointing upon certain believers for some kind of
God-ordained ministry (as opposed to the normative man-ordained).

It has been the many man-ordained types that discontinued
God's method of evangelising (and conducting church meetings).
Yes, these people throughout history have been/are the cessationists!
These have been spiritually deceived by Satan via church leaders.

Define Spirit filled! For Paul commanded us all to be Filled With Sporit, meaning we control being filled woth the Spirit, so how do we control it?

 

[Browner]

Define Spirit filled! For Paul commanded us all to be Filled With Sporit, meaning we control being filled woth the Spirit, so how do we control it?

IMO, the inability of dumbed-down American believers to be able to
think critically is the main reason for the condition of their churches.
(Please google this business of dumbing-down for an understanding.)

Paul commanded that ALL believers SEEK this total filling of the Spirit.
Pentecostals describe it as being filled to overflowing (as running over).
We are talking about "the baptism with the Holy Spirit" anointing,
which has absolutely NOTHING to do with receiving the Spirit
at the point of the beginning of the salvation process!

Any "control" believers have is only via exercising
their free will to accomplish something worthwhile.
Throughout Scripture, God has always insisted on
the mutual co-operation between Himself and man.

No one-time righteousness, salvation, etc. which lasts forever!

 

[revmwc]

IMO, the inability of dumbed-down American believers to be able to
think critically is the main reason for the condition of their churches.
(Please google this business of dumbing-down for an understanding.)

Paul commanded that ALL believers SEEK this total filling of the Spirit.
Pentecostals describe it as being filled to overflowing (as running over).
We are talking about "the baptism with the Holy Spirit" anointing,
which has absolutely NOTHING to do with receiving the Spirit
at the point of the beginning of the salvation process!

Any "control" believers have is only via exercising
their free will to accomplish something worthwhile.
Throughout Scripture, God has always insisted on
the mutual co-operation between Himself and man.

No one-time righteousness, salvation, etc. which lasts forever!

Baptism of the Holy Spirit occurs at salvation and is not a separate event. We are dipped in the Holy Spirit when He comes and indwells us. That is the Baptism, at the same time we are indwelt we are also filled by the Holy Spirit. That is He fully controls us and when does His control of stop? When we son after salvation, we become controlled by sin, the old nature. How do we get the filling back we confess our sin and the Spirit takes back control.

 

[TCassidy]

Hmmmmm. The indwelling/filling of the Holy Spirit is not synonymous with the baptism of the Holy Spirit.

Indwelling/filling is the Holy Spirit in you.

Baptism is you in the Holy Spirit.

Completely different things.

 

[revmwc]

Hmmmmm. The indwelling/filling of the Holy Spirit is not synonymous with the baptism of the Holy Spirit.

Indwelling/filling is the Holy Spirit in you.

Baptism is you in the Holy Spirit.

Completely different things.

The indwelling of the Spirit is not synonymous with the filling. We are indwelt with the Spirit at Salvation and Paul makes it clear we remain indwelt.
1 Corinthians 3:
16 "Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?
17 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are."

1 Corinthians 6:
19 "What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?
20 For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's."

The Holy Spirit indwells every single believer and when we sin we defile the temple of the Holy Spirit which is our body.

But Paul's gives us a command,
Ephesians 5:
17 "Wherefore be ye not unwise, but understanding what the will of the Lord is.
18 And be not drunk with wine, wherein is excess; but be filled with the Spirit;
19 Speaking to yourselves in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody in your heart to the Lord;"

Be filled with the Spirit that is a command and we told not to be drunk with wine to excess, that not to allow sin to control but to allow the Spirit to control.

They are not synonymous.

Colossians 1:
8 "Who also declared unto us your love in the Spirit.
9 For this cause we also, since the day we heard it, do not cease to pray for you, and to desire that ye might be filled with the knowledge of his will in all wisdom and spiritual understanding;
10 That ye might walk worthy of the Lord unto all pleasing, being fruitful in every good work, and increasing in the knowledge of God;"

Paul and his companions prayed that the Colossian believers would continue in their Spiritual walk and one can only have a Spiritual walk when they are filled with the Spirit. He already we can defile the temple by walking in sin and yet the Spirit still indwells us but then he commands in Ephesians 5:18 that we be filled with the spirit and prays that the Colossian believers would continue a walk worthy of the lord and that walk can only be with the filling of the Spirit.

As to the Baptism of the Spirit we see the seven one things Paul gives to us in,
Ephesians 4:
4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;
5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,
6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

One body of those born again believers, One Spirit the Holy Spirit, One hope in Jesus Christ, One Lord the Lord Jesus, One Faith in which One Baptism The Baptism of the Holy Spirit, One God and Father of all.

 

[TCassidy]

They are not synonymous.

Yeah, that's what I said.

 

[revmwc]

Yeah, that's what I said.

So we agree on a point, filling and indwelling are not synonymous

 

[TCassidy]

So we agree on a point

That's one!

 

[JonC]

That's one!

Agreeing to agree.... that's two. You guys are on a roll. Laugh

 

[dad1]

The indwelling of the Spirit is not synonymous with the filling. We are indwelt with the Spirit at Salvation and Paul makes it clear we remain indwelt.
1 Corinthians 3:
16 "Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?
17 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are."

1 Corinthians 6:
19 "What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?
20 For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's."

The Holy Spirit indwells every single believer and when we sin we defile the temple of the Holy Spirit which is our body.

But Paul's gives us a command,
Ephesians 5:
17 "Wherefore be ye not unwise, but understanding what the will of the Lord is.
18 And be not drunk with wine, wherein is excess; but be filled with the Spirit;
19 Speaking to yourselves in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody in your heart to the Lord;"

Be filled with the Spirit that is a command and we told not to be drunk with wine to excess, that not to allow sin to control but to allow the Spirit to control.

They are not synonymous.

Colossians 1:
8 "Who also declared unto us your love in the Spirit.
9 For this cause we also, since the day we heard it, do not cease to pray for you, and to desire that ye might be filled with the knowledge of his will in all wisdom and spiritual understanding;
10 That ye might walk worthy of the Lord unto all pleasing, being fruitful in every good work, and increasing in the knowledge of God;"

Paul and his companions prayed that the Colossian believers would continue in their Spiritual walk and one can only have a Spiritual walk when they are filled with the Spirit. He already we can defile the temple by walking in sin and yet the Spirit still indwells us but then he commands in Ephesians 5:18 that we be filled with the spirit and prays that the Colossian believers would continue a walk worthy of the lord and that walk can only be with the filling of the Spirit.

As to the Baptism of the Spirit we see the seven one things Paul gives to us in,
Ephesians 4:
4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;
5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,
6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

One body of those born again believers, One Spirit the Holy Spirit, One hope in Jesus Christ, One Lord the Lord Jesus, One Faith in which One Baptism The Baptism of the Holy Spirit, One God and Father of all.

Trying to figure out what you are trying to say? Does all this mean you agree the saved still remain saved even if the blow it?

 

[revmwc]

Trying to figure out what you are trying to say? Does all this mean you agree the saved still remain saved even if the blow it?

Yes once saved always saved because the indwelling Spirit never leaves us.

 

[TCassidy]

Trying to figure out what you are trying to say? Does all this mean you agree the saved still remain saved even if the blow it?

No. I pointed out that the filling and the baptism of the Holy Spirit are two different things.

He agreed. He just never seems to use 3 words when 3000 are available. He seems to think the rest of the forum will be impressed with his cut and paste skills.

 

[Iconoclast]

Trying to figure out what you are trying to say? Does all this mean you agree the saved still remain saved even if the blow it?

Who saved them?
Did God save them, or did they save themselves?

 

[Internet Theologian]

The same folks who had a guy that was having sex with his mother if I recall. The so called lifestyle of sin is a a phrase that is a haven for cranks and religious fanatics to try to judge others for little sins! .

Oh, I see, it's not really biblical, it's just cranks and religious fanatics that do this. Rolleyes

Must be what Paul and John were, as Paul mentions this practice of sin, and that those who do such will not enter the kingdom (written as a warning to actual professing believers in churches) and the apostle John also does this in his epistle of 1 John, also written to believers to warn them.

Now, do tell us all which "little sins" Christ bore to Calvary.

 

[Internet Theologian]

No there are not. The saved are always saved, and those with not so great works get not so great rewards.

So you're saying there are no Scriptures that show evidence of true conversion and of false? Correct?