About to hit the fan in the SBC

[saturneptune]

Ok well I can see the maturity level just dropped.

About to the level of your theology.

 

[SolaSaint]

Whatever the intent of these non-Cals, it sure has started a firestorm in here and I'm sure the Internet will be buzzing over this tomorrow and probably from some pulpits. To the teachers and Pastors here, are you planning on addressing this Sunday at your church?

 

[Winman]

Maybe you could disquise yourself as a pastor and become a Calminian double agent.

The issue is real.

Hence, know the divisiveness between Calvinists and non-Calvinists in the SBC does not originate from churches like Riverbend nor transparent, convictional Calvinists like Dr. Hargrave. Rather divisiveness between Calvinists and non-Calvinists stems in part from men with little to no integrity who attempt to sneak into churches unawares with a specific but unexpressed agenda to convert a non-Calvinist church to the "reformed" faith...a purpose to tear down the presupposed "humanistic faith" of those who do not embrace the "doctrines of grace" the way the "reformed" embrace them. In short, these men come in not to pastor the people and win the lost in the community. Instead, they come in to "reform" the church to Calvinism, a dishonest, godless tactic that all good men and women everywhere must continue to protest. And protest we will...

know again...

protest we will...

Today you are seeing this protest.

http://peterlumpkins.typepad.com/pe...-press-on-major-issues-by-peter-lumpkins.html

 

[TadQueasy]

About to the level of your theology.

:laugh: Now that right there is funny

 

[saturneptune]

The issue is real.



Today you are seeing this protest.

http://peterlumpkins.typepad.com/pe...-press-on-major-issues-by-peter-lumpkins.html

Yes, the issue is real. That is not the point. The point is each local church is in charge of how it handles it. In my church, cals and non-cals get along fine, and have for years. If the issue from the SBC became divisive, which it will not, a simple vote solves the problem. It is like the off switch on the TV.

 

[Grasshopper]

James White is not representative of all Calvinists. He is a hyper-calvinist like so many we see on this board. He is a joke and not to be taken seriously.

1. James White is not in the SBC.
2. mandym is either ignorant or a liar in calling James White a hyper-Calvinist.
3. James White will make the author of the article look like a 3rd grader tommorrow on the Dividing Line podcast.
4. no one on this board or those who signed the article would have the courage to call White tommorrow and challenge him.
5. Lot of tough guys on a message board not so many who go into public debate and face the man one on one.

 

[SolaSaint]

1. James White is not in the SBC.
2. mandym is either ignorant or a liar in calling James White a hyper-Calvinist.
3. James White will make the author of the article look like a 3rd grader tommorrow on the Dividing Line podcast.
4. no one on this board or those who signed the article would have the courage to call White tommorrow and challenge him.
5. Lot of tough guys on a message board not so many who go into public debate and face the man one on one.

well said Grasshopper. I'm set for James tomorrow on the Dividing line, can't wait.

 

[mandym]

1. James White is not in the SBC.

I never said he was and I don't care.

2. mandym is either ignorant or a liar in calling James White a hyper-Calvinist.

uh huh....

3. James White will make the author of the article look like a 3rd grader tommorrow on the Dividing Line podcast.

Not likely

4. no one on this board or those who signed the article would have the courage to call White tommorrow and challenge him.
5. Lot of tough guys on a message board not so many who go into public debate and face the man one on one.

So you want to make the "my guy is tougher than your guy argument. Really?

 

[Grasshopper]

So you want to make the "my guy is tougher than your guy argument. Really?

The Caner's had their chance but backed out despite having an agreement. Patterson, Allen and all those big mouths at Southwestern will name call White but won't man up and debate him on the issues. One side is willing to stand up in public and debate these issues and one side makes their case behind a keyboard. So yea, I'll make that argument.

 

[Winman]

1. James White is not in the SBC.
2. mandym is either ignorant or a liar in calling James White a hyper-Calvinist.
3. James White will make the author of the article look like a 3rd grader tommorrow on the Dividing Line podcast.
4. no one on this board or those who signed the article would have the courage to call White tommorrow and challenge him.
5. Lot of tough guys on a message board not so many who go into public debate and face the man one on one.

I think you missed the point, the debate is over.

 

[Tom Butler]

The reformed side is a very small minority.and i have seen a lot of younger men coming up reformed. If they ever became the majority it would split the convention.

I'm curious why you think the convention would split if the Reformed becomes a majority, when it has not split when the Reformed are in the minority? I see no evidence that Calvinists are planning a takeover. And I have no idea how we could do it.

 

[mandym]

The Caner's had their chance but backed out despite having an agreement. Patterson, Allen and all those big mouths at Southwestern will name call White but won't man up and debate him on the issues. One side is willing to stand up in public and debate these issues and one side makes their case behind a keyboard. So yea, I'll make that argument.

And who is it that cares about this?

 

[mandym]

I'm curious why you think the convention would split if the Reformed becomes a majority, when it has not split when the Reformed are in the minority? I see no evidence that Calvinists are planning a takeover. And I have no idea how we could do it.

There is no doubt that there is always this underlying tension between the two. As has been said it is always the elephant in the room in mixed circles. The squeaky wheels on the reformed side tend to be in your face. We see it on this board. There is a large church in Tennessee that split because a reformed pastor came in without revealing that he was reformed and began pushing change in the church in short order. The current pastor has been able to restore the peace and unity but not before it ran off two other pastors and tore the church apart.

This is what the tension will eventually lead to.

 

[Tom Butler]

James White is not representative of all Calvinists. He is a hyper-calvinist like so many we see on this board. He is a joke and not to be taken seriously.

James White is not a hyper-Calvinist. Do you actually know what a hyper-Calvinist is? Another name is Hardshells. Do you know what they believe?

 

[Tom Butler]

And often under cover and sneaky.

Could you cite one or more churches where this has happened?

 

[mandym]

Could you cite one or more churches where this has happened?

Just stating the state is as close as I am going to get. This is the second time I have heard of this and I mentioned the one I did because I have spoken to people directly involved.

 

[Tom Butler]

Here's the initial reaction from Tom Ascol of the Founders:
http://blog.founders.org/2012/05/statement-of-traditional-southern.html

 

[OldRegular]

1. The author of the first book by a Southern Baptist on theology was by John Dagg who believed the Biblical Doctrine of Grace.

2. The founders of the first Southern Baptist Seminary believed the Biblical Doctrine of Grace; Boyce, Broadus, and Manly.

3. One of the more widely referenced books on theology was by the yankee Baptist, Strong who also believed the Biblical Doctrine of Grace.

4. Grudem who wrote a widely used text on theology also believes the Biblical Doctrine of Grace!

 

[saturneptune]

There is no doubt that there is always this underlying tension between the two. As has been said it is always the elephant in the room in mixed circles. The squeaky wheels on the reformed side tend to be in your face. We see it on this board. There is a large church in Tennessee that split because a reformed pastor came in without revealing that he was reformed and began pushing change in the church in short order. The current pastor has been able to restore the peace and unity but not before it ran off two other pastors and tore the church apart.

This is what the tension will eventually lead to.

You have no idea what you are talking about. There is no tension in my church, or any other church locally I know of. Tension between the two in a local church, if it does exist, points to a lack of proper leadership. Do you have any idea what the term leadership means?

People with this mindset are bound to create problems where none exist. If you cannot start an arugment, you will create a strawman and argue with him.

Our church does not tolerate this type of nonsense, from its pastor, deacons, or members. If the SBC becomes divisive in our church, then the SBC will be a faded memory.

 

[OldRegular]

Why do the Calvinists care about this? They want to be part of the SBC, but the SBC doesn't want to be part of them.

Why don't all the Calvinists just start their own association?

I don't know about you, but I don't stay where I am not wanted.

You don't hear of non-Calvinist pastors trying to get inside a Reformed Church and change it, but it is very common to hear of Calvinists who come into previously non-Calvinistic churches and try to introduce Calvinism. Why?

Why do Calvinists need the SBC anyway?

I believe I can solve your problem Winman. Southern Baptists generally believe that God calls a man to preach. Perhaps these who believe the Biblical Doctrine of Grace are following the instructions that God gives to Timothy through the Apostle Paul, to wit:

2 Timothy 4:1-8
1. I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;
2. Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine.
3. For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;
4. And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.
5. But watch thou in all things, endure afflictions, do the work of an evangelist, make full proof of thy ministry.
6. For I am now ready to be offered, and the time of my departure is at hand.
7. I have fought a good fight, I have finished my course, I have kept the faith:
8. Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing.