Abraham Lincoln

[ChurchBoy]

Originally posted by KenH:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by I Am Blessed 16:
I can't believe we're still fighting the Civil War!

First off, it wasn't a civil war. A civil war is when two opposing forces are trying to control the same government. The CSA was not trying to take over the federal government but had seceded from it.

Second, I will deal with it as I see fit, Sue.

My favorite bumpersticker:

Yankees 1
Rebels 0
(Halftime) </font>[/QUOTE]KenH,

Do you want to see a second "Civil War" occur? If that does happen I will fight for my state (California!!!).

 

[andy]

Dear Jude and Helen, It is not for me to judge who goes to heaven or hell. I was simply saying that according to the biography by herndon Lincoln never became a Christian. If the biography is right than Lincoln is in Hell right now. This, of course, does not mean that the biography is right it could be wrong. D James Kennedy preached a sermon that said that Lincoln was a Christian. If that sermon was right than Lincoln is in heaven. Jude you said you wanted me to make a list who I think will be in Heaven and Hell according to the Bible. Well, here it is:
1) Thomas Jefferson--Hell
2) Elvis Presley--Heaven. He trusted Christ as young boy in a Assembly of God revival.
3) Britney Spears--Heaven. She trusted Christ in a southern Baptist church as a young girl.
4) Bill Clinton--Heaven. He accepted Christ in a southern Baptist Church.
5) Jimmy Carter--Heaven. He says he accepts Jesus Christ.
6) George Bush Sr--Hell. Unsaved modernist anglican.
7) George Bush Jr. Heaven. He says he accepts Jesus Christ.
8) Harry Truman--I do not know. He was raised a Baptist but never heard his testimony. He would cuss like a longshoreman.
9) John Wayne--Heaven. Accepted Jesus in old age.
10) Jack Hyles--Heaven. Accepted Jesus. He was the biggest jerk in the history of the fundamental baptists.
11) Charles Spurgeon--Heaven. My favorite preacher.
12) Mother Theresea. Heaven. She loved Jesus. She is in Heaven right now looking down on many unsaved Baptists who are burning in Hell.
13) Steve Mcqueen--Heaven. Accepted Jesus.
14) Benjamin Franklin--Hell. Refused to accept Christ at a George Whitefield revival.
15) John F. Kennedy--Hell. Unsaved Catholic.
16) Steve Allen--Hell. Wrote a book attacking Christianity.
17) Walt Disney--Hell.
18) Sigmund Freud--Hell.
19) Lincoln--Heaven or Hell. It depends which books or sermons you read.
20) Jimi Hendrix--Hell.
21) Sammy Davis Jr--Hell.
22) John Gotti--Hell.
23) Al Capone--Hell.
24) Carl Sagan--Hell.
25) Dave Thomas--Heaven. The founder of Wendy's accepted Christ.
26) Ronald Reagan--Heaven. He never set foot in Church when he was in Hollywood but accepted Jesus in old age.
27) Ava Gardner--I do not know but she sure was a beauty.

 

[Johnv]

Just goes to show ya that you shouldn't judge a person's salvation. The previous post is an example of that.

It lists JFK as going to Hell, even though he was well known as a devout Catholic, but it lists John Wayne as goiong to Heaven (John Wayne converted to Catholicism right before he died.

It lists Mother Theresa as heaven, something the staunch anti-catholics will disagree with. It also list Steve Allen as Hell, even though Steve Allen was a Christian. I attended an event where he was the pulpit guest, and he attested to his Christian faith. He also lists Sammy Davis Jr as Hell (presumably because of his Jewish faith) even though he publicly supported Christian missions and many Christian ministries. Some report that he espoused a deep belief in Jesus while aos remaining a Jew.

It just goes to show you that a person's opinions about someone's salvation are just that: opinions. Leave it up to God, folks. We'll probably be surprised when we get to heaven, and come to find that most of the people on the aforementioned "list" may be there, and we'll probably ask "how'd YOU get here???" to which the reply will be "same way you did".

 

[KenH]

Originally posted by ChurchBoy:
Do you want to see a second "Civil War" occur?

Another War Between the States? Nah. The Yankees would have nukes this time and Atlanta would be obliterated again.

 

[Daniel David]

Wow, another bitter southerner that has to try and make his case for the loser South, ha ha.

The South were nothing but a bunch of rag tag, terrorist, libertarians who hated having an authority over their head. The South started it, but the North crushed them like scum.

 

[KenH]

Wow, another stuck up Unionist that has to try and make his case for the arrogant North, ha ha.

The North was nothing but a bunch of highfalutin, pillaging, tyrants who loved tariffs and controlling the South economically. The Yankees invaded the CSA and, unfortunately, won but look at how well the South is doing now economically and at all of the rusted out factories in the the old Rust Belt up north and how no one can become president now without winning a whole bunch of the the South's electoral votes...so maybe in the long run the South did win.

 

[Daniel David]

If that makes you feel better...

 

[KenH]

Same to ya, bud.

 

[ChurchBoy]

Now, Now, children, please behave...It's time to kiss and make up

 

[dianetavegia]

This has to be the most immature name calling thread I've ever seen. I sure hope the group that makes fun of Christian's doesn't see this one and quote y'all. Makes the grown-ups here look bad!

Diane

 

[I Am Blessed 24]

3. Show grace to the other posters. When someone disagrees with you, discuss it; but be slow to offend, and eager to get into the Word and find the answers. Remember, when discussing passionate issues, it is easy to go too far and offend. Further, if we are "earnestly contending for the faith" it would be unrealistic not to expect at times to be misunderstood or even ridiculed. But please note that your words can sometimes be harsh if used in the wrong way. The anger of man worketh not the righteousness of God.

4. Personal attacks will not be tolerated. The board has an edit button enabled. We encourage you to use it and edit your own words. Moderators and Administrators will be visibly proactive in dealing with potentially offensive situations. Posts of a violent or threatening nature, either implicitly or explicitly, will be deleted, and the poster's membership revoked. We encourage personal problems with other members be resolved privately via email or personal messaging.

Everyone here should be aware of these posting rules. You all had to agree to abide by them when you joined the Baptist Board.

North or South.....we are all Christians and should treat each other as what we are...Brothers and Sisters in Christ.

§ue

 

[rsr]

Andy, I think your list of the "saved" and unsaved is entirely out of line. Yes, by their fruits you shall know them, but God is the ultimate arbiter of these things, not you or I. To speculate is bad form and divisive. It also reveals your soteriological biases.

BTW: While I agree there is not a shred of evidence that Lincoln considered himself a "Christian," (though he became more convinced in the sovereignty of God as the Civil War progressed) it's not wise to base too much on Herndon. After all, Herndon published after Lincoln's death, and he had every incentive to embellish. His story about Lincoln's contraction of syphillis, for example, was picked up by Gore Vidal but is generally discounted.

 

[No Deceit]

Helen stated,

Are all governments instituted by God? Of course not! But all are allowed by Him. The only government He ever instituted was the old theocracy of Israel. He uses all governments

I agree with several things you wrote, but I let me point out some error in what you wrote. All governments are from God, be it evil or benevolent.

Romans 13
1 Let every soul be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and the authorities that exist are appointed by God.

Daniel 4

17"This decision is by the decree of the watchers,
        And the sentence by the word of the holy ones,
        In order that the living may know
        That the Most High rules in the kingdom of men,
        Gives it to whomever He will,
        And sets over it the lowest of men.

Romans 9:
17For the Scripture says to the Pharaoh, "For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I may show My power in you, and that My name may be declared in all the earth."

The above verses should make it clear who sets up kingdoms and governments. The examples given were of evil governmnets. I would also suggest you read Daniel, because it is clear that God set up the kingdom of Babylon. Nebuchadnezzar did not understand this truth either and was driven from men to eat grass because of this lack of understanding.

Not only that but God rules over these same kingdoms.

2 Chronicles 20
5Then Jehoshaphat stood in the assembly of Judah and Jerusalem, in the house of the LORD, before the new court, 6and said: "O LORD God of our fathers, are You not God in heaven, and do You not rule over all the kingdoms of the nations, and in Your hand is there not power and might, so that no one is able to withstand You? 7Are You not our God, who drove out the inhabitants of this land before Your people Israel, and gave it to the descendants of Abraham Your friend forever

The answer is yes!

As far as his spiritual state was concerned, unless the book has come up with something new, Lincoln's references to God in his public life indicate he was Christian all along, although, as with all of us, only God can know the true condition of the heart.

I would not be so easily taken in by the use of God in people's speeches. Many of our leaders have envoked God in their writings and speeches. Did Lincoln die a believer, that I can not say for sure. I could only hope, but most of humanity does not believe in the true God of the Bible let alone leaders of nations.

God does reveal what kind of people He saves.

1 Corinthians 1
27But God has chosen the foolish things of the world to put to shame the wise, and God has chosen the weak things of the world to put to shame the things which are mighty; 28and the base things of the world and the things which are despised God has chosen, and the things which are not, to bring to nothing the things that are, 29that no flesh should glory in His presence.

The Bible warns us not to judge, or we also will be judged as we have judged.

Well, the Judgment that Christ spoke of in Matthew 7 was hypocritcal judgment, and not righteousness judgment which true believers are to do.

John 7
24Do not judge according to appearance, but judge with righteous judgment."

1 Corinthians 5:
12For what have I to do with judging those also who are outside? Do you not judge those who are inside? 13But those who are outside God judges. Therefore "put away from yourselves the evil person."

May the Lord give you His truth Helen.

In His love,
al soto
A True Church

 

[Jude]

Britney Spears is a Christian because she 'gave her heart to Jesus' as a child? If I EVER needed a proof-text for discounting OSAS, SHE would be it! Your list though, kinda scares me. Of course, with people like Hitler, we can assume these kind are NOT in heaven. But others, well, I'll leave them to God...whether they 'professed' Christ or not.

 

[Barnabas H.]

An interesting list andy. I'd like to ask what is your margin for errors? After all, since you and I are not God, we couldn't possibly see the heart of a person - therefore, we cannot judge if the person is saved or not. The only thing we can do is test, examine (Bible words) the fruits of those people. But (with the exception of those departed) where do we stand compared to God who has no limitations in time and space, and He can see 5-10 years ahead - of which we cannot. The Bible says, "So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing the word of God" (Romans 10:17). So, we ought not to underestimate the Word of God in reaching the unsaved (in the case of George Bush Sr., you quoted, for example). Just a thought.

 

[Helen]

Hi, No Deceit and thank you for your post. I understand what you are point out about God establishing governments. But I hope you understand what I also was trying to point out. There is only one time when God Himself directly set up a governmental system, laws and all. That was old Israel. That is the point I was trying to make. I am not disputing that there is any government set up apart from His knowledge or permissive will, or that He has not used people, unbelievers included, to further His work. My point was that of all the governments on earth which He has allowed and worked with, there is only one He personally established. I'm probably using the wrong words, but I think folks will get the gist of what I am trying to say.

Regarding judgment, yes we are to judge actions, but we never dare judge the heart or even the eternal destiny of someone. Only God knows the heart.

We have to judge actions, and we have to treat people, for the most part, in accord with their words and actions. But the deepest part of a man, his heart, is a matter for God, not us, to decide about.

To Andy -- Reagan's not even dead yet! In the meantime, your list shows both the futility of trying to get little children to make a decision for Christ (I have one daughter who 'accepted' Christ fourteen or fifteen times before she was eight because it got her SS teachers and Awana teachers so happy and they gave her candy and stuff! She was also the daughter who was deepest into rebellion as a teenager!), and the inability of any of us to judge another's heart or final destiny. We can have pretty good guesses about some, such as Hitler, but to figure Mother Teresa is in heaven, for instance, is something I would doubt. Her goal was to help Buddhists become better Buddhists, Hindus become better Hindus, etc., so they would be happy at the point of death. Her goal was to make death comfortable, physically and mentally for those in her care, not to try to help them regarding their final eternal destiny in terms of the Bible.

So how does God judge her? We'll have to see.

Lincoln? Men a hundred years ago were a little more blunt about their beliefs or lack of them. Lincoln made what seem to be sincere and continual references to God and his dependence on Him, so let's see if he's in heaven or not instead of trying to assign him on the basis of our own somewhat limited knowledge and abilities in this area!

 

[skanwmatos]

Originally posted by andy:
26) Ronald Reagan--Heaven. He never set foot in Church when he was in Hollywood but accepted Jesus in old age.

Ronald Reagan grew up in Dixon Illinois where he attended First Christian Church at the corner of 2nd Street and Hennepin Avenue. He graduated from Eureka College, Eureka, Illinois. Eureka College is a church owned school (Christian Church - Disciples of Christ).

During his Hollywood years he attended services at (and was a member of) Bel-Air Presbyterian Church, Bel-Air, California. He also frequented the "Church of the Open Door" which was pastored by J. Vernon McGee.

When asked what his "religion" was, he would often respond, "a born-again Christian." When he was attacked in a debate with Walter Mondale in 1984 regarding his not attending church services in Washington (due to the security concerns of the Secret Service after the assassination attempt that almost killed him) he replied to Mondale, "I miss going to church, but I think the Lord understands."

 

[andy]

Dear Jude, Here is one of my favorite bible verses: I John 1;7 "...the blood of Jesus Christ his son cleanses us from ALL sin." The sins of the worst sinner who ever lived are pardoned through the blood and death of Christ. If Britney Spears is sincere in her faith in Christ than she will go to Heaven when she dies. She may have her works burned up at the judgement seat of Christ but she will still go to heaven according to dispensationalist teaching.

 

[Tractster]

Originally posted by Dr. Bob Griffin:
With a name like mine (Robert E Lee Griffin, Jr) everyone knows where my sympathies reside.

It is sad that Lincoln has ben deified in most of our Christian Schools as the fourth member of the trinity. Or fifth, after Washington. Or maybe sixth, after Reagan!!

Hmmm.... I wonder is D.James Kennedy is guilty of this deification thing.

Roscoe

 

[Johnv]

Originally posted by Tractster:
Hmmm.... I wonder is D.James Kennedy is guilty of this deification thing.

That would be a staunch "yes". I don't recall anything he's said about Lincoln, but I remember years ago watching his telecast, when he was speaking on Thomas Jefferson. He had said that any accusations that Thomas Jefferson had sexual relations with Sally Hemmings were false, and implied that such accusations were an attempt by liberals to discredit the Christianity of our founding fathers. It was a year or two later that descendents of Jefferson/Hemmings were identified via DNA. Kennedy has since changed his tune, and this year, stated that Jefferson was indeed a Christian nominally, but that the question as to whether he had been transformed by the Holy Spirit cannot be answered difinitively one way or the other.

Now don't get me wrong, I think D James Kennedy is a great speaker and teacher. But he did contribute to the deification of our Founding Fathers, and Framers of the Constitution.