Abstract faith??

[Winman]

If he was a calvinist, would not think like that at all, as non elect do not concern themselves with those kind of questions!

Nonsense, Calvinists are known for lack of assurance, prominent Calvinists like John Piper and R.C. Sproul have written on this problem. Look what Piper says and how closely it resembles this fellow's problem with belief;

The most agonizing problem about the assurance of salvation is not the problem of whether the objective facts of Christianity are true (God exists, Christ is God, Christ died for sinners, Christ rose from the dead, Christ saves forever all who believe, etc.). Those facts are the utterly crucial bedrock of our faith. But the really agonizing problem of assurance is whether I personally am saved by those facts.

This boils down to whether I have saving faith. What makes this agonizing - for many in the history of the church and today - is that there are people who think they have saving faith but don't. For example, in Matthew 7:21-23, Jesus says, "Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven. Many will say to Me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?' And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from me, you who practice lawlessness.'"

http://www.desiringgod.org/resource...onizing-problem-of-the-assurance-of-salvation

Piper is describing Biblicist's friend perfectly. He knows and believes all the facts, but he doubts if he has true saving faith. After all, Calvinism teaches that man is incapable of true saving faith. How is a man to know if he has been regenerated and graced with a genuine saving faith? This is a tremendous problem with Calvinists expressed over and over again.

Here is what another Calvinist writes and shows this same exact problem.

It may surprise you to know that just about every contact I have had with people who are doubting their salvation are Calvinistic in their theology. In other words, they believe in unconditional election. These are the ones who believe in perseverance of the saints. These are the ones that believe that we cannot lose our salvation! Yet these are the ones who are doubting their faith the most.

Their issue has to do with their election. Are they truly among the elect? If they are, they believe their faith will persevere until the end. But if they are not, there is no hope. But how are they to know for sure whether they are elect? Maybe their faith is a stated faith? Maybe it is false. The gentleman I talked to today was so riddled with doubt, he was having thoughts of suicide. “How do I know my faith is an elect faith?” He wanted assurance so badly, but felt that his Calvinistic theology prevented him from ever having such assurance.

http://www.reclaimingthemind.org/blog/2013/05/doubting-calvinists/

Again, when you have been taught repeatedly that man is incapable of faith, then no man can know when he has genuine saving faith. This problem is seen over and over again in Calvinism and Reformed theology.

You cannot know if you have faith in this system, or if it is real. Perhaps you are simply self deluded, perhaps you have convinced yourself you have real faith but do not.

So, don't tell me Calvinists do not suffer from this problem, I know better. And a few honest Calvinsts like Piper and Patton openly confess this problem.

 

[Yeshua1]

Nonsense, Calvinists are known for lack of assurance, prominent Calvinists like John Piper and R.C. Sproul have written on this problem. Look what Piper says and how closely it resembles this fellow's problem with belief;



http://www.desiringgod.org/resource...onizing-problem-of-the-assurance-of-salvation

Piper is describing Biblicist's friend perfectly. He knows and believes all the facts, but he doubts if he has true saving faith. After all, Calvinism teaches that man is incapable of true saving faith. How is a man to know if he has been regenerated and graced with a genuine saving faith? This is a tremendous problem with Calvinists expressed over and over again.

Here is what another Calvinist writes and shows this same exact problem.



http://www.reclaimingthemind.org/blog/2013/05/doubting-calvinists/

Again, when you have been taught repeatedly that man is incapable of faith, then no man can know when he has genuine saving faith. This problem is seen over and over again in Calvinism and Reformed theology.

You cannot know if you have faith in this system, or if it is real. Perhaps you are simply self deluded, perhaps you have convinced yourself you have real faith but do not.

So, don't tell me Calvinists do not suffer from this problem, I know better. And a few honest Calvinsts like Piper and Patton openly confess this problem.

they would have doubts and concerns about what they believe and hold to as chrsitians, but NOT concerned that they hold to jesus as lord, belive the bible, yet are also non elect!

 

[Winman]

they would have doubts and concerns about what they believe and hold to as chrsitians, but NOT concerned that they hold to jesus as lord, belive the bible, yet are also non elect!

Glad you think you know what others think, but Piper and Patton said that many Calvinists doubt if they are elect and if they have true saving faith.

But what do they know compared to you?

 

[The Biblicist]

Perhaps he is convinced that he is not one of the elect and that he is doomed to damnation. If he believes the scriptures then he knows that most people will not be saved.

This is the problem with Calvinism and Reformed Theology, you cannot tell this person with certainty that Jesus loves him personally and personally died for him. Thus, no one can have real assurance.

Telling him to believe is no use, because he may believe he is incapable of faith. This is the teaching. If he believes faith is a gift, he must wait and hope God gives him this miraculous gift. How will he know when he has this gift? And he knows he cannot work up this confidence from within himself.

This fellow needs to hear for a certainty that God loves him and that Jesus died for him personally.

You can do nothing for him.

You guys (van and you) have so much hatred in you for the truth that you cannot even respond to anything without turning it into an attack on Calvinism. I told you that that is not an issue with him and yet you keep insisting it is.

I have not mentioned Calvinism or any Arminism in this OP and yet you feel you must hijack the OP due to your own hatred of the truth. That is pitiful!

 

[Winman]

You guys (van and you) have so much hatred in you for the truth that you cannot even respond to anything without turning it into an attack on Calvinism. I told you that that is not an issue with him and yet you keep insisting it is.

I have not mentioned Calvinism or any Arminism in this OP and yet you feel you must hijack the OP due to your own hatred of the truth. That is pitiful!

It is reality. Did your read what Calvinist C. Michael Patton wrote?

It may surprise you to know that just about every contact I have had with people who are doubting their salvation are Calvinistic in their theology. In other words, they believe in unconditional election. These are the ones who believe in perseverance of the saints. These are the ones that believe that we cannot lose our salvation! Yet these are the ones who are doubting their faith the most.

Their issue has to do with their election. Are they truly among the elect? If they are, they believe their faith will persevere until the end. But if they are not, there is no hope. But how are they to know for sure whether they are elect? Maybe their faith is a stated faith? Maybe it is false. The gentleman I talked to today was so riddled with doubt, he was having thoughts of suicide. “How do I know my faith is an elect faith?” He wanted assurance so badly, but felt that his Calvinistic theology prevented him from ever having such assurance.

This fellow is a Calvinist himself, I provided a link to his site so you can see for yourself. He said that just about every person whom he has had contact with that doubts their salvation is Calvinistic in theology.

You can stick your head in the sand and deny reality, but when you teach people that God only loves some people, and that no man has the ability to believe unless God regenerates him, then people (at least thoughtful ones) are going to ask if they happen to be one of the fortunate persons that God has elected. If people are told repeatedly that it is impossible for the unregenerate man to have a genuine saving faith, then thoughtful people are going to desire to know they have a "real" faith. And of course, those who take the scriptures most seriously are going to worry the most.

I do not doubt that Mr. Patton's friend is suicidal. It would be terrifying to believe in hell and not be certain that you are one of the elect with true saving faith.

Read both articles again. It is not that these persons doubt that Jesus died for sins and rose from the dead, it is that they are not certain Jesus died for them personally, and that they do not have true saving faith.

Get mad all you want, I have simply told you the truth.

You will probably have a moderator shut the thread down now, I have noticed this is what Calvinists do when they do not like the direction a thread is going.

 

[The Biblicist]

It is reality. Did your read what Calvinist C. Michael Patton wrote?



This fellow is a Calvinist himself, I provided a link to his site so you can see for yourself. He said that just about every person whom he has had contact with that doubts their salvation is Calvinistic in theology.

You can stick your head in the sand and deny reality, but when you teach people that God only loves some people, and that no man has the ability to believe unless God regenerates him, then people (at least thoughtful ones) are going to ask if they happen to be one of the fortunate persons that God has elected. If people are told repeatedly that it is impossible for the unregenerate man to have a genuine saving faith, then thoughtful people are going to desire to know they have a "real" faith. And of course, those who take the scriptures most seriously are going to worry the most.

I do not doubt that Mr. Patton's friend is suicidal. It would be terrifying to believe in hell and not be certain that you are one of the elect with true saving faith.

Read both articles again. It is not that these persons doubt that Jesus died for sins and rose from the dead, it is that they are not certain Jesus died for them personally, and that they do not have true saving faith.

Get mad all you want, I have simply told you the truth.

You will probably have a moderator shut the thread down now, I have noticed this is what Calvinists do when they do not like the direction a thread is going.

You really have a personal issue. I told you this was not his problem or he would have told me that. I told you the nature of his problem and it is not doctrinal. Why do you insist on insinuating I am lying and worst of all attempt to use this to promote your own hatred? It is hard to believe that someone can have so much hatred in them that they will use anything imaginable to vent it.

 

[Iconoclast]

You really have a personal issue. I told you this was not his problem or he would have told me that. I told you the nature of his problem and it is not doctrinal. Why do you insist on insinuating I am lying and worst of all attempt to use this to promote your own hatred? It is hard to believe that someone can have so much hatred in them that they will use anything imaginable to vent it.

yes...sad....:thumbs::wavey:

 

[Winman]

You really have a personal issue. I told you this was not his problem or he would have told me that. I told you the nature of his problem and it is not doctrinal. Why do you insist on insinuating I am lying and worst of all attempt to use this to promote your own hatred? It is hard to believe that someone can have so much hatred in them that they will use anything imaginable to vent it.

This is what you said;

I know this person. He has no doubts about the truth nor does he deny the truth or distort the truth but simply does not regard himself as the object of that truth even though he defends that truth. He even seems to rejoice in the truth. He tells me that he knows and understands and believes the truth but cannot experientially relate to it when he faces God in prayer. Instead he tells me that when he prays he feels like David when David said that his sins were continually before him. His attitude and life express Christlikeness in every other way. He is very humble person but without personal confidence that he is the object of God's redemptive love?

This is exactly what Piper and Patton were describing in those articles. Many persons have no problem believing that Jesus is the Son of God who died on the cross for sins and rose from the dead.

But they are not sure they are the elect. They are not sure they are one of the fortunate persons that God loves and has chosen.

The guy is telling you the problem straight to your face, but it is going right over your head because you refuse to listen to anyone.

This is the downfall of Calvinism. If God does not love every person, and if Jesus did not die for every person, then no person can know with an absolute certainty that they are the elect and Jesus died for them.

Just because you never doubt means nothing. Other folks are far more thoughtful than you. If you really took your doctrine to it's logical end as these persons have, you would be filled with doubt too.

But you are too self assured for that, nobody can tell you a thing.

 

[Winman]

Listen to just the first few moments of this sermon by a Calvinist preacher. Heartbreaking.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g8LVubU0Oto

You do not even understand your own doctrine.

 

[The Biblicist]

This is what you said;



This is exactly what Piper and Patton were describing in those articles. Many persons have no problem believing that Jesus is the Son of God who died on the cross for sins and rose from the dead.

But they are not sure they are the elect. They are not sure they are one of the fortunate persons that God loves and has chosen.

The guy is telling you the problem straight to your face, but it is going right over your head because you refuse to listen to anyone.

This is the downfall of Calvinism. If God does not love every person, and if Jesus did not die for every person, then no person can know with an absolute certainty that they are the elect and Jesus died for them.

Just because you never doubt means nothing. Other folks are far more thoughtful than you. If you really took your doctrine to it's logical end as these persons have, you would be filled with doubt too.

But you are too self assured for that, nobody can tell you a thing.

You twist my words to mean something I never intended just to vent your wicked hatred. You are one sick mental case.

 

[Winman]

You twist my words to mean something I never intended just to vent your wicked hatred. You are one sick mental case.

I am not twisting your words whatsoever. Look again at what you have said;

I have tried everything I know but I have never really dealt with this kind of situation before in all my years of ministry. He simply seems to be without personal confidence that he is the object of God's redemptive love and that creates a misery factor inside of him as he expresses it.

You say quite clearly that your friend lacks "personal confidence that he is the object of God's redemptive love"

That is not difficult to understand, he lacks confidence that he is one of the elect. And the sad part is, if you are honest concerning your doctrine, you cannot help him. Oh, perhaps he is wrong, perhaps he is elect, but you cannot guarantee it, and there is a good chance he is not elect in your system.

That's just the way it is in Calvinism, you are elect, or you are not, and there is nothing you or anybody else can do about it.

What is truly sad, is that all of this is a lie. God does love him, and Jesus did die for him. I could look him right in the eye and tell him that, you cannot.

I don't expect you to listen.

Get your friend's permission and PM his e-mail address to me, I will show him lots of scripture that shows Jesus loves him. I will also show him scripture that proves he is able to believe.

But you aren't going to help him.

 

[The Biblicist]

You twist my words to mean something I never intended just to vent your wicked hatred. You are one sick mental case.

One thing is sure on this forum. A person cannot open themselves up or bring up personal sensitive issues without it being used to personally assault our own person and beliefs. Yet Van and Winman claim to be the true defenders of God's love. If this is their kind of love or the kind of love they claim represents God then who needs that kind of love because it is the same kind offered by Satan and the enemies of God.

So brethren don't dare open any personal or sensitive issues or you will be torn asunder by their kind of "love." If this is brotherly love then please spare me as I get the same from the world.

 

[The Biblicist]

I am not twisting your words whatsoever. Look again at what you have said;



You are one sick individual. Now you are trying to tell me what I meant by the words I said when I had already clearly denied it was a doctrinal issue. YOu twist my words, call me a liar and claim to be omniscience as you know this person and you know my mind and what I meant. You are one sick individual.

 

[The Biblicist]

I am not twisting your words whatsoever. Look again at what you have said;



You are one sick individual. Now you are trying to tell me what I meant by the words I said when I had already clearly denied it was a doctrinal issue. YOu twist my words, call me a liar and claim to be omniscience as you know this person and you know my mind and what I meant. You are one sick individual.

This is utterly amazing. I open an OP to seek counsel for a person struggling. I clearly state it is not anything to do with doctrine and especially not election as this person has told me what it is, it is an emotional, feeling type thing and yet Winman and Van twist my words, call me a liar just to vent their own hatred. If that is a token of their brotherly love, then God delivers us from such people. This forum has turned into a hate fest where every opportunity is taken to rip and tear and devour others. I don't think I would ever stoop that low if Van or Winman opened up and asked for advice about a sensitive matter with their friends, at least I hope I would not stoop that low to turn it agains them and attack them. This is pathetic!

 

[Winman]

You are one sick individual. Now you are trying to tell me what I meant by the words I said when I had already clearly denied it was a doctrinal issue. YOu twist my words, call me a liar and claim to be omniscience as you know this person and you know my mind and what I meant. You are one sick individual.

This is not about you. Yes, you deny it is doctrinal, but even a child could easily see it is.

You and your other Calvinists have repeatedly told this fellow that God only loves a few select persons and passes by the rest, leaving them to perish in their sins. He believes you, and he is worried he is one of those unfortunate persons God has passed by.

How can you help him? Can you guarantee he is elect? NO! You don't even know you are elect if truth be told.

When he tries to work up confidence he cannot, it is a vicious cycle of doubt. The more he tries to assure himself he might be elect, the more aware of his doubt he becomes. You think I don't understand, but I do.

It is you that does not understand.

See if your friend will give me his e-mail. I will talk to him. I have helped several people here on BB with this in the past unknown to you.

 

[The Biblicist]

This is not about you. Yes, you deny it is doctrinal, but even a child could easily see it is.

You and your other Calvinists have repeatedly told this fellow that God only loves a few select persons and passes by the rest, leaving them to perish in their sins. He believes you, and he is worried he is one of those unfortunate persons God has passed by.

How can you help him? Can you guarantee he is elect? NO! You don't even know you are elect if truth be told.

When he tries to work up confidence he cannot, it is a vicious cycle of doubt. The more he tries to assure himself he might be elect, the more aware of his doubt he becomes. You think I don't understand, but I do.

It is you that does not understand.

See if your friend will give me his e-mail. I will talk to him. I have helped several people here on BB with this in the past unknown to you.

you are a very sick, and I mean a very mentally sick individual. You need to seek some counseling.

 

[Winman]

you are a very sick, and I mean a very mentally sick individual. You need to seek some counseling.

You have not been able to help your friend. You cannot.

Ask him if I can talk to him through e-mail.

You think you are so smart, you refuse to listen to anybody. You quote yourself over and over. Truth is, you might be the most ignorant person here at BB.

I showed you articles from prominent Calvinists. They were honest enough to admit this serious problem in Calvinism. I showed you a video from a Calvinist pastor describing a women living in absolute torture because she worries if she is elect or not...

But will you listen? NO.

 

[The Biblicist]

You have not been able to help your friend. You cannot.

Ask him if I can talk to him through e-mail.

You think you are so smart, you refuse to listen to anybody. You quote yourself over and over. Truth is, you might be the most ignorant person here at BB.

I showed you articles from prominent Calvinists. They were honest enough to admit this serious problem in Calvinism. I showed you a video from a Calvinist pastor describing a women living in absolute torture because she worries if she is elect or not...

But will you listen? NO.

You are one sick individual! One ignorant individual as well. One of the most important things in counseling anyone is to first listen to them and let them tell you what is bothering them instead of telling them what is wrong with them. He plainly told me what his problem was and it has nothing to do with whether he doubts or fears he is not one of God's elect or not. If that was his problem he would have said so as he understands the doctrine. The doctrine has no relationship to his problem. His problem is on the experiential rather than doctrinal level. He feels like he is speaking to himself when he prays and does not have any sense/awareness of God's presence.

Are you going to tell us that you have never had the same experiential problem in your own life? When I was an Arminian like you I knew Arminian believers who hated the doctrine of unconditional election that expressed the same experiential difficulties.

You are so proud and cocky and think you know it all when you don't know a single thing about this person or his problem. You just want to use it as a platform to attack, gouge and vent your hated. If you can't deal with problem as defined then have the decency to remove yourself from this thead and show a little Christian "love" for others instead of stooping to this level of pride and egotism.

 

[Winman]

You are one sick individual! One ignorant individual as well. One of the most important things in counseling anyone is to first listen to them and let them tell you what is bothering them instead of telling them what is wrong with them. He plainly told me what his problem was and it has nothing to do with whether he doubts or fears he is not one of God's elect or not. If that was his problem he would have said so as he understands the doctrine. The doctrine has no relationship to his problem. His problem is on the experiential rather than doctrinal level. He feels like he is speaking to himself when he prays and does not have any sense/awareness of God's presence.

Are you going to tell us that you have never had the same experiential problem in your own life? When I was an Arminian like you I knew Arminian believers who hated the doctrine of unconditional election that expressed the same experiential difficulties.

You are so proud and cocky and think you know it all when you don't know a single thing about this person or his problem. You just want to use it as a platform to attack, gouge and vent your hated. If you can't deal with problem as defined then have the decency to remove yourself from this thead and show a little Christian "love" for others instead of stooping to this level of pride and egotism.

You still aren't getting it, all these persons who doubt they are the elect believe Calvinism's doctrines to be true, that is the problem.

Listen to that video, what does the poor lady who is being tortured by doubt say?

"Dear Brother Don, I know that God will save his elect, and only his elect, but Mr. Fortner I'm terrified, that I'm not one of them, and I don't know what to do."

Does this lady believe Reformed/Calvinist doctrine? Absolutely, and that is the problem, she is worried that she is one of the poor unfortunate people God has passed by and that she will die in her sins.

Your friend also believes Calvinism, and that is also his problem, because he also cannot find assurance that God loves him and chose him, and that Jesus died for him.

The problem is not that he doesn't understand Calvinism, the problem is that he does. In fact, I submit he understands it much better than you.

 

[The Biblicist]

I want to thank those posters who sincerely attempted to help my friend and offered their advice. Through this interaction I think I have put my finger on problem and the solution. The solution was something known to me all along but simply never connected it with his problem.

I heard an old Pastor preach on the "silences of God" and how God used silence and withdrew from His people at times and what practical effects it has upon a child of God.

The silence of God is designed to make us introspective. The scriptures do exhort us to make our calling and election sure. In every case the child of God comes out stronger and if this is his experience he will come out of it stronger because it is designed to make him dig deeper into himself and to challenge his personal relationship with God. Job went through such an experience where heaven was as brass and he felt all alone without God. At first he did not accuse God. Later he did challenge the wisdom of God in experientially deserting him even though he never really deserted him. In it all the never forsook God even though it seemed to him that God forsook him.

This is the one thing I find encouraging in my friend, he cannot forsake God even though he believes experientially God has forsaken him.