Featured Abstract faith??

Nonsense, Calvinists are known for lack of assurance, prominent Calvinists like John Piper and R.C. Sproul have written on this problem. Look what Piper says and how closely it resembles this fellow's problem with belief;

http://www.desiringgod.org/resource...onizing-problem-of-the-assurance-of-salvation

Piper is describing Biblicist's friend perfectly. He knows and believes all the facts, but he doubts if he has true saving faith. After all, Calvinism teaches that man is incapable of true saving faith. How is a man to know if he has been regenerated and graced with a genuine saving faith? This is a tremendous problem with Calvinists expressed over and over again.

Here is what another Calvinist writes and shows this same exact problem.

http://www.reclaimingthemind.org/blog/2013/05/doubting-calvinists/

Again, when you have been taught repeatedly that man is incapable of faith, then no man can know when he has genuine saving faith. This problem is seen over and over again in Calvinism and Reformed theology.

You cannot know if you have faith in this system, or if it is real. Perhaps you are simply self deluded, perhaps you have convinced yourself you have real faith but do not.

So, don't tell me Calvinists do not suffer from this problem, I know better. And a few honest Calvinsts like Piper and Patton openly confess this problem.

 

they would have doubts and concerns about what they believe and hold to as chrsitians, but NOT concerned that they hold to jesus as lord, belive the bible, yet are also non elect!

 

Glad you think you know what others think, but Piper and Patton said that many Calvinists doubt if they are elect and if they have true saving faith.

But what do they know compared to you?

 

It is reality. Did your read what Calvinist C. Michael Patton wrote?

This fellow is a Calvinist himself, I provided a link to his site so you can see for yourself. He said that just about every person whom he has had contact with that doubts their salvation is Calvinistic in theology.

You can stick your head in the sand and deny reality, but when you teach people that God only loves some people, and that no man has the ability to believe unless God regenerates him, then people (at least thoughtful ones) are going to ask if they happen to be one of the fortunate persons that God has elected. If people are told repeatedly that it is impossible for the unregenerate man to have a genuine saving faith, then thoughtful people are going to desire to know they have a "real" faith. And of course, those who take the scriptures most seriously are going to worry the most.

I do not doubt that Mr. Patton's friend is suicidal. It would be terrifying to believe in hell and not be certain that you are one of the elect with true saving faith.

Read both articles again. It is not that these persons doubt that Jesus died for sins and rose from the dead, it is that they are not certain Jesus died for them personally, and that they do not have true saving faith.

Get mad all you want, I have simply told you the truth.

You will probably have a moderator shut the thread down now, I have noticed this is what Calvinists do when they do not like the direction a thread is going.

 

yes...sad....:thumbs::wavey:

 

This is what you said;

This is exactly what Piper and Patton were describing in those articles. Many persons have no problem believing that Jesus is the Son of God who died on the cross for sins and rose from the dead.

But they are not sure they are the elect. They are not sure they are one of the fortunate persons that God loves and has chosen.

The guy is telling you the problem straight to your face, but it is going right over your head because you refuse to listen to anyone.

This is the downfall of Calvinism. If God does not love every person, and if Jesus did not die for every person, then no person can know with an absolute certainty that they are the elect and Jesus died for them.

Just because you never doubt means nothing. Other folks are far more thoughtful than you. If you really took your doctrine to it's logical end as these persons have, you would be filled with doubt too.

But you are too self assured for that, nobody can tell you a thing.

 

Listen to just the first few moments of this sermon by a Calvinist preacher. Heartbreaking.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g8LVubU0Oto

You do not even understand your own doctrine.

 

I am not twisting your words whatsoever. Look again at what you have said;

You say quite clearly that your friend lacks "personal confidence that he is the object of God's redemptive love"

That is not difficult to understand, he lacks confidence that he is one of the elect. And the sad part is, if you are honest concerning your doctrine, you cannot help him. Oh, perhaps he is wrong, perhaps he is elect, but you cannot guarantee it, and there is a good chance he is not elect in your system.

That's just the way it is in Calvinism, you are elect, or you are not, and there is nothing you or anybody else can do about it.

What is truly sad, is that all of this is a lie. God does love him, and Jesus did die for him. I could look him right in the eye and tell him that, you cannot.

I don't expect you to listen.

Get your friend's permission and PM his e-mail address to me, I will show him lots of scripture that shows Jesus loves him. I will also show him scripture that proves he is able to believe.

But you aren't going to help him.

 

This is not about you. Yes, you deny it is doctrinal, but even a child could easily see it is.

You and your other Calvinists have repeatedly told this fellow that God only loves a few select persons and passes by the rest, leaving them to perish in their sins. He believes you, and he is worried he is one of those unfortunate persons God has passed by.

How can you help him? Can you guarantee he is elect? NO! You don't even know you are elect if truth be told.

When he tries to work up confidence he cannot, it is a vicious cycle of doubt. The more he tries to assure himself he might be elect, the more aware of his doubt he becomes. You think I don't understand, but I do.

It is you that does not understand.

See if your friend will give me his e-mail. I will talk to him. I have helped several people here on BB with this in the past unknown to you.

 

You have not been able to help your friend. You cannot.

Ask him if I can talk to him through e-mail.

You think you are so smart, you refuse to listen to anybody. You quote yourself over and over. Truth is, you might be the most ignorant person here at BB.

I showed you articles from prominent Calvinists. They were honest enough to admit this serious problem in Calvinism. I showed you a video from a Calvinist pastor describing a women living in absolute torture because she worries if she is elect or not...

But will you listen? NO.

 

You still aren't getting it, all these persons who doubt they are the elect believe Calvinism's doctrines to be true, that is the problem.

Listen to that video, what does the poor lady who is being tortured by doubt say?

"Dear Brother Don, I know that God will save his elect, and only his elect, but Mr. Fortner I'm terrified, that I'm not one of them, and I don't know what to do."

Does this lady believe Reformed/Calvinist doctrine? Absolutely, and that is the problem, she is worried that she is one of the poor unfortunate people God has passed by and that she will die in her sins.

Your friend also believes Calvinism, and that is also his problem, because he also cannot find assurance that God loves him and chose him, and that Jesus died for him.

The problem is not that he doesn't understand Calvinism, the problem is that he does. In fact, I submit he understands it much better than you.