Abstract faith??

[The Biblicist]

You still aren't getting it, all these persons who doubt they are the elect believe Calvinism's doctrines to be true, that is the problem.

Listen to that video, what does the poor lady who is being tortured by doubt say?

"Dear Brother Don, I know that God will save his elect, and only his elect, but Mr. Fortner I'm terrified, that I'm not one of them, and I don't know what to do."

Does this lady believe Reformed/Calvinist doctrine? Absolutely, and that is the problem, she is worried that she is one of the poor unfortunate people God has passed by and that she will die in her sins.

Your friend also believes Calvinism, and that is also his problem, because he also cannot find assurance that God loves him and chose him, and that Jesus died for him.

The problem is not that he doesn't understand Calvinism, the problem is that he does. In fact, I submit he understands it much better than you.

No, you don't understand! I don't teach your version of Calvinism. Neither does my friend believe in your version of Calvinism.

We teach that election is not merely of the person but of the means as well and that election is known by how the gospel comes to a person in a life changing experience producing a new creation, true repentance or change from one direction to a totally different direction.

What has challenged my friend is not his initial salvation but his present void of experiencing God's presence in prayer. His doubts are about himself in regard to the lack of experiential awareness of God's presence rather than whether he was an elect or not. This type of problem transcends Calvinism but can be found among your own Arminian ranks - it is a common experiential problem that is generated by the PRESENT circumstances rather thant the PAST initial salvation experience.

What is amazing is your arrogance to presume omniscience in something you know nothing about but rather have taken a few words that I have stated but in a context that denies the very way you pervert them. That is what is amazing!

However, in struggling to express his experiential difficulty to you and others on the forum, I finally put a finger on it. So in spite of what you attempted to do, the Lord overruled your vicious attempts for the good of my friend.

 

[Winman]

Your story changes by the minute, this is what you said originally about your friend.

Tom, you are close to my question. However, suppose the man said "yes I have, and I confess my sins but as I face God in prayer all I have is a greater sense of my sinfulness without any assurance that God personally loves me or has redeemed me." When you ask if there is some unconfessed sin in his life and he says "no, I confess my sins and forsake them but yet I cannot perceive myself as God's personal object of love and forgivness although that is what I want more than anything!"

These are not the words of someone who believes themselves to be elect. This person is making it absolutely clear that they have no assurance that God loves them or has personally redeemed them.

He is saying he is not sure he is one of the elect. He does not know if God loves him, he does not know if Jesus died for him personally.

This is exactly what Piper and Patton wrote about.

You are completely changing your story now. Nobody is fooled by this.

 

[The Biblicist]

Your story changes by the minute, this is what you said originally about your friend.



These are not the words of someone who believes themselves to be elect. This person is making it absolutely clear that they have no assurance that God loves them or has personally redeemed them.

He is saying he is not sure he is one of the elect. He does not know if God loves him, he does not know if Jesus died for him personally.

This is exactly what Piper and Patton wrote about.

You are completely changing your story now. Nobody is fooled by this.

I speculated about many things it could be (his childhood lack of parental love, inability to relate). From the beginning I denied it was on a doctrinal level. From the beginning I asserted it was an experiential problem centered in his prayer life when he faced God alone. In that area of his life he could not sense the love of God or His presence which gave rise to the struggle to beleive he was the object of redemptive love. He never could deny God or any truth of God's Word but simply denied himself due to his experientical problem in his prayer life. So the problem is found in his prayer life as he comes to God and the root of his problem is experiential, lack of sensing God's presence and love, which in turn produced the inability to believe He was the object of God's redeeming love. Now that in a nutshell is the story I presented, althoug admittedly I was trying to work it out myself and that is why I brought it on line.

You enter the picture claiming you know the problem better than anyone else as though your were his closest friend and had first hand knowledge. Indeed, you know my friend so well, that you can charge me with misrepresentation of his real issues. Even more astounding, now you know the situation so thoroughly you can now accuse of me telling one story at the beginning and now changing the story at the end. Utterly amazing! When are we to gather to worship you?

 

[The Biblicist]

I speculated about many things it could be (his childhood lack of parental love, inability to relate). From the beginning I denied it was on a doctrinal level. From the beginning I asserted it was an experiential problem centered in his prayer life when he faced God alone. In that area of his life he could not sense the love of God or His presence which gave rise to the struggle to beleive he was the object of redemptive love. He never could deny God or any truth of God's Word but simply denied himself due to his experientical problem in his prayer life. So the problem is found in his prayer life as he comes to God and the root of his problem is experiential, lack of sensing God's presence and love, which in turn produced the inability to believe He was the object of God's redeeming love. Now that in a nutshell is the story I presented, althoug admittedly I was trying to work it out myself and that is why I brought it on line.

You enter the picture claiming you know the problem better than anyone else as though your were his closest friend and had first hand knowledge. Indeed, you know my friend so well, that you can charge me with misrepresentation of his real issues. Even more astounding, now you know the situation so thoroughly you can now accuse of me telling one story at the beginning and now changing the story at the end. Utterly amazing! When are we to gather to worship you?

Yes, I will ask the moderator to shut down this thread as your hatred knows no bounds and nothing good can come in what you have to say or continuing to answer your rants.

 

[The Biblicist]

Yes, I will ask the moderator to shut down this thread as your hatred knows no bounds and nothing good can come in what you have to say or continuing to answer your rants.

BTW I will see my friend tomorrow at church and I will apply what I think may be the solution and see if that helps and will report to you. Yes, even for Winman's sake I will ask if this problem arose from any kind of struggle with the doctrine of unconditional election (even though he has never raised that)or is it related to a struggle of personal relationship that originated in his prayer life .

 

[agedman]

Biblicist,

I trust that God will attend to you desires in finding this friend in Christ.

Those who do not understand the truth of the Doctrines of Grace or that are so caught up in their own bias against that view are always going to come up with some humanistic rational for discrediting and demeaning.

God put it in your heart to care about a lost friend.

God didn't do that out of some passing fanciful wish, but to bring YOU to a point of experiencing some teachable moment.

If the friend becomes a believer in the process is not conditioned upon how YOU approach or some technique you might use to "win that person to Christ." It is solely upon the work of the Holy Spirit as the Word of God is delivered by you.

However, do not neglect that what YOU gain by experiencing this time is valuable just as any other teaching/experience that God uses to instruct His children.

 

[The Biblicist]

BTW I will see my friend tomorrow at church and I will apply what I think may be the solution and see if that helps and will report to you. Yes, even for Winman's sake I will ask if this problem arose from any kind of struggle with the doctrine of unconditional election (even though he has never raised that)or is it related to a struggle of personal relationship that originated in his prayer life .

Unfortunately the turn of events yesterday did not afford any opportunity to discuss this issue with my friend. The sensitive nature of the issue is not just something I can just barge into apart from proper circumstances.

 

[The Biblicist]

Unfortunately the turn of events yesterday did not afford any opportunity to discuss this issue with my friend. The sensitive nature of the issue is not just something I can just barge into apart from proper circumstances.

I have since had a chance to correspond with my friend and ask him directly and bluntly if the doctrine of unconditional election was the source/cause/issue that brought him to doubt his salvation. His answer was a definite no! Again, he repeated that it was due to his prayer life in connection with some things he had not previously shared with me. There were adverse circumstances continuing over a prolonged period of time that he could not reconcile in his own mind plus the silence of God in regard to his prayers.

I shared my thoughts on the reasons for the "silence" of God in the believer's life plus more importantly what are the evidences of a personal fellowship with God using 1 Jn. 1:1-7. I think this latter aspect helped him greatly and he seems to be on the mend or so it seems and so I hope.

 

[Winman]

plus more importantly what are the evidences of a personal fellowship with God

This is what they call a Freudian Slip. If you are having to give him evidence that he enjoys a personal fellowship with God, then he is not sure he is saved. He is not sure he is one of the elect or that he is regenerated.

You already let the cat out of the bag way back, and now you are trying to backpedal.

Too late.

 

[The Biblicist]

This is what they call a Freudian Slip. If you are having to give him evidence that he enjoys a personal fellowship with God, then he is not sure he is saved. He is not sure he is one of the elect or that he is regenerated.

You already let the cat out of the bag way back, and now you are trying to backpedal.

Too late.

My oh my! When I think a person could not stoop lower than he already has a new low occurs. I feel sorry for you.