According to Dave Hunt, It's a Good Thing That I was Arminian First...

[ILUVLIGHT]

Hi ScottJ;
The opinion of a man isn't worth much unless he can prove them with scripture.
I don't happen to be in the Bible so you can't prove one of your accusations. You're just tooting your horn it don't mean anything
May Christ Shine His Light On Us All;
Mike

 

[Monergist]

Originally posted by ILUVLIGHT:
Talk about no substance your whole post is about how you feel or think and not about scripture.

Scripture Regarding God's Foreknowledge

Isaiah 42:9 The past events have indeed happened.
Now I declare new events;
I announce them to you before they occur."

Isaiah 44:7 Who, like Me, can announce [the future]? Let him say so and make a case before Me, since I have established an ancient people.
Let these gods declare the coming things,
and what will take place.

Isaiah 46:9-10
Remember what happened long ago,
for I am God, and there is no other;
[I am]God, and no one is like Me.
I declare the end from the beginning,
and from long ago what is not yet done,
saying: My plan will take place,
and I will do all My will.

Isaiah 48:3-6
I declared the past events long ago;
they came out of My mouth; I proclaimed them.
Suddenly I acted, and they occurred.
therefore I declared to you long ago;
I announced it to you before it occurred,
so you could not claim: My idol caused them;
my carved image and cast idol control them.
You have heard it. Observe it all.
Will you not acknowledge it?
From now on I will announce new things to you,
hidden things that you have not known.

Daniel 2:28-29
But there is a God in heaven who reveals mysteries, and He has let King Nebuchadnezzar know what will happen in the last days. Your dream and the visions [that came into] your mind [as you lay] in bed were these:
Your Majesty, while you were in your bed, thoughts came [to your mind] about what will happen in the future. The revealer of mysteries has let you know what will happen.

Isaiah 40:28 Do you not know?
Have you not heard?
Yahweh is the everlasting God,
the Creator of the whole earth.
He never grows faint or weary;
there is no limit to His understanding


Scripture Regarding God's Fore-Ordaining

Jeremiah 1:5 I chose you before I formed you in the womb;
I set you apart before you were born.
I appointed you a prophet to the nations.

Psalm 33:11 The counsel of the Lord stands forever,
the plans of His heart from generation to generation.

Proverbs 19:21 Many plans are in a man's heart,
but the Lord's decree will prevail

Scripture Regarding God's Unchanging

Numbers 23:19 God is not a man who lies,
or a son of man who changes His mind.
Does He speak and not act,
or promise and not fulfill?

1 Samuel 15:29 Furthermore, the Eternal One of Israel does not lie or change His mind, for He is not man who changes his mind."

Job 23:13 But He is unchangeable; who can oppose Him?
He does what He desires.

Psalm 119:89-91 Lord, Your word is forever;
it is firmly fixed in heaven.
Your faithfulness is for all generations;
You established the earth, and it stands firm.
They stand today in accordance with Your judgments,
for all things are Your servants.

Ecclesiastes 3:14
I know that all God does will last forever; there is no adding to it or taking from it. God works so that people will be in awe of Him.

Isaiah 31:2 But He also is wise and brings disaster.
He does not go back on what He says;
He will rise up against the house of wicked men
and against the allies of evildoers.

Malachi 3:6 "Because I, Yahweh, have not changed, you descendants of Jacob have not been destroyed.

Hebrews 6:17-18 Because God wanted to show His unchangeable purpose even more clearly to the heirs of the promise, He guaranteed it with an oath,
so that through two unchangeable things, in which it is impossible for God to lie, we who have fled for refuge might have strong encouragement to seize the hope set before us.

James 1:17 Every generous act and every perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of lights; with Him there is no variation or shadow cast by turning.

 

[TCassidy]

Originally posted by Charles Meadows:
I think Ray Berrian raised an interesting point. God created all men (given) and all men are sinful by nature (given).

Unfortunately your "given" is not a "given." God did not create all men sinful. In fact, in didn't create any men sinful. Adam was created innocent of any sin. Since his fall, we have all been born in sin. To accuse God of "creating all men sinful" is simply a blasphemous accusation.

If God predestines who is to be saved (the only way out of damnation) then who is truly to blame for the fate of the lost?

The scriptures say that the wages of sin is death. So it is the fault of the sinner. He sinned and his sins condemn him.

The answer given is "sin". But if the man's nature was sin to begin with he can do nothing else - because if he COULD do otherwise then he could in effect "save himself" by good conduct.

False assumption leading to a false conclusion. Man's nature was not sinful to begin with. Adam was not created in sin. On that one fact your whole position comes crashing down.

As such the logical end is that God (perhaps in His all-knowing wisdom) determined they they would be lost.

Your false a priori assumption coupled with your false logic have brought you to a blasphemous conclusion.

So Berrian has a good point!

Neither of you has a good point. Both of you demonstrate a terrible lack of understanding of not only soteriology but anthropology and harmatology as well!

People by nature like to organize things, comparing and contrasting them, as a means of learning. Calvinism ( as we know it today, which I DO agree is a reasonable representation of what Calvin HIMSELF believed) is an internally consistent logical paradigm in which to contextualize man's relationship with God.

Well, actually the 5 points were formulated 55 years after Calvin died.

Can we define God in a system?

Systematic Theology does not define God in a system.

It seems to me that God gave us all free will because He wanted a people who chose Him.

If you believe that God gave all men, including lost sinners, a will that is free, and not in bondage to the law of sin and death, then you don't believe what the bible teaches.

If our salvation (those of us who are saved by grace) was predetermined then why the whole scheme of history?

We don't know why God saves who He saves and does not save those who He does not save, and I for one will not question the Wisdom and Will of God.

And the idea that free will means open theism? Is God once again limited by our logic?

Your's does seem to be!

 

[Monergist]

Originally posted by ILUVLIGHT:
If you found Dave Hunt to be blasphemous it's only because the truth hurts.

I find Dave Hunt's words to be blasephemous because they attack the very character of God.

 

[Charles Meadows]

Tsk. Tsk.

Your less than irenic tone does not well serve this debate.

Anyway...

You don't think we were created with sinful nature? You and I have the ability to lead 100% sinless lives? Either we do or we do not have the ability to live without sinning.

If we are conceived in sin then whose choice is it that we perish? Without Jesus we WILL perish in sin. If we have no choice ourselves then has not God created us for reprobation? Although the original reformers specifically addressed and denied this corollary observation it IS a demonstrable flaw in the Calvinist system.

And my position is blasphemous? Not any more than your system that attempts to put God in a box.

Regarding Calvin - I am aware of the Synod of Dort. I assume you are aware of the positions of R.T. Kendall and Norman Geisler, and other more rational experts like Curt Daniel. There is obviously some disagreement as to Calvin's position on the atonement. I don't plan to debate that here.

Calvinism is a rational system which is internally valid - but that doesn't make it any more valid than any other human theological construct.

 

[Ray Berrian]

Paul33,

Some Christians backslide and still have the Spirit of God though their focus is on themselves and worldly things.

Ephesians 4:30, if I remember correctly, says that we are not the 'grieve the Holy Spirit.'

Also, in Philippians 1:6 we are 'sealed to the Day of Redemption' even though some Christians do backslide in their life of faith with Christ.

Ray

 

[Scott J]

Originally posted by ILUVLIGHT:
Hi ScottJ;
The opinion of a man isn't worth much unless he can prove them with scripture.
I don't happen to be in the Bible so you can't prove one of your accusations. You're just tooting your horn it don't mean anything
May Christ Shine His Light On Us All;
Mike

The only accusation I made was that you had created a false dichotomy between God's plan and His Sovereignty- If you can term that an accusation. I would call it a simple statement of fact.

Beyond that, I asked questions. An actual answer would have been nice.

 

[Charles Meadows]

I guess I should add, in terms of the title of the thread, that I disagree with almost everything Dave Hunt has written - I do not espouse his position.

 

[ILUVLIGHT]

Hi Monergist;
Not one verse to prove your position.
Proof positive that God created us perfect.
Jer 18:4 And the vessel that he made of clay was marred in the hand of the potter: so he made it again another vessel, as seemed good to the potter to make it.
Proof positive that God can and does mold us and shape us as we grow according to our choices.
Jer 18:6 O house of Israel, cannot I do with you as this potter? saith the LORD. Behold, as the clay is in the potter's hand, so are ye in mine hand, O house of Israel.
Jer 18:8 If that nation, against whom I have pronounced, turn from their evil, I will repent of the evil that I thought to do unto them.

The decision is yours my friend we have all been chosen

Rom 11:11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.

We were purchased by the blood of Christ we were not preowned.

Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

When are Calvinist going to learn that they deny God's word when they Claim Jn.3:16 isn't for the whole world, but just the elect. As if the elect were a seperate group. There is no non elect. We either all elected by the blood of Christ or none were purchased by the blood of Christ..
Calvinism is Catholicism reformed. If man isn't saved it's his own fault because he rejected the truth.
May Christ Shine His Light On Us All;
Mike

 

[Me4Him]

Originally posted by Monergist:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Me4Him:

Knowing what choices people will make before they make them and chosing accordingly, is not predestinating them to make that choice.

Its a great misconception among non-calvinists that this argument somehow gets them off the hook with the whole foreknowledge/predestination/free-will thing. But it doesn't.

Assume for a moment that you are correct in stating that God merely "predestined" according to what choices man would make. By His foreknowing what choices would be made, the choices are unalterable. Which goes right back to the whole objection to predestination; that predetermined choices cannot be real choices.

So I ask you, if God foreknew all the choices that you made today, which of those choices could you have made differently from what already He foreknew? Did you feel like a robot when you made them? </font>[/QUOTE]If I use your "logic", then Adam didn't have a choice in the Garden, therefore, Adam isn't responsible for sin being in the world, sin is the results of "God's predestination".

Do you agree with that??

Ro 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

Ro 5:18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment

came upon all men to condemnation;

even so by the righteousness of one the free gift

came upon all men unto justification of life.


The choices are NOT unalterable.

If Adam/EVE had not sinned, the "Future" would have been much different.

How do I get you to understand that "YOUR" future is determined by your choices, of which God, in his foreknowledge, "ADJUSTED" your future according to your choice. (saved you)

The future of the world "IS NOT" the choice of God, he isn't willing for any to perish, but only a few find the way and many perish, clearly, "God's will" isn't being "ENFORCED" and "Man's will" (not God's) is leading "MAN" to his destruction, in spite of Salvation being offered to ALL.

 

[ILUVLIGHT]

Hi ScottJ;

Beyond that, I asked questions. An actual answer would have been nice.

You asked;

So are you saying God in fact does not foreknow who will be saved and lost according to your brand of arminianism? Are you arguing for open theism?

Whether God knows or not, doesn't in anyway unalterably predestine anyone to Salvation or destruction. I'm aware that this position is what your trying to prove and will not be able to. I do not presume to know what God does know and neither do you out side of the scriptures.
I resent the implication of your question of whether or not I am this or that. I am a born again Christian and do not have to live up to your expectations. I do not deny the omniscience of God. I do not agree that we can know God before we exist personally. This is what you are claiming with Calvinism view of God's presumed foreknowing of man. You seem to believe that because God knows it this makes it unalterable yet you have no idea of what God knows. Yes God see's the beginning from the end and knows all things. As to whether or not someone gets saved, His knowledge is not known by us and this is where you make the mistake. No where in scripture does it say that you will be or won't be. It just presents the offer of the gift. If you do not take the gift that is your decision. God has already chosen that Salvation be offered to the Gentiles.
Rom 11:11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.

That's doesn't say just a few pre select few but just says gentiles meaning everyone one of us.
Election is not a guarantee of Salvation only faith is the guarantee. The only true elect are the saved anyway.

May Christ Shine His Light On Us All;
Mike

 

[Me4Him]

I "think" it might be helpful if we know the difference between "born in sin" and "being a sinner".

Before Adam/Eve sinned, they were kept alive by "SPIRIT", no blood, after sin, "Blood" became the medium by which the "Flesh" survives. This fleshly body is the "sin" we're conceived/born in.

If we're willing to "shed the blood" of our "old man" and live "After the spirit", (by spirit) Jesus will some day restore us back to the pre-fall condition of Adam/Eve.

"Flesh and Blood" can't inherit heaven, however "Flesh and bone" can, as Jesus told the disciple to "handle me", and we shall be "like him".

"Being a sinner" requires the "knowledge of good and evil".

Ge 2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it:

When Adam/Eve sinned, their "eyes" were opened to that knowledge.

Ge 3:7 And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they were naked;

Joh 9:41 Jesus said unto them, If ye were blind, ye should have no sin: but now ye say, We see; therefore your sin remaineth.

This is why "Baptist" teach the "AGE OF ACCOUNTABILITY".

Being born into a "body of sin" and "being a sinner" is quite different.

I've even heard that some babies were "predestined to hell", obviously, they didn't have an understanding of what I've just posted.

 

[TCassidy]

Originally posted by Charles Meadows:
You don't think we were created with sinful nature? You and I have the ability to lead 100% sinless lives? Either we do or we do not have the ability to live without sinning.

You seem to be confused regarding origin of the individual soul. I suggest you do a study on Traducianism. If you do you will find that (1) God's breathing into man the breath of life is not said to be repeated after Adam (Gen. 2:7); (2) Adam begat a son in his own likeness (Gen. 5:3); (3) God's resting (Gen. 2:2 - 3) suggests no fresh acts of creation ex nihilo; and (4) original sin affects the whole man, including the soul.

If we are conceived in sin then whose choice is it that we perish?

Ours, because we choose to sin.

Without Jesus we WILL perish in sin.

Obviously.

If we have no choice ourselves then has not God created us for reprobation?

No, God created Adam in innocence. All the rest of us were created via traducianism.

Although the original reformers specifically addressed and denied this corollary observation it IS a demonstrable flaw in the Calvinist system.

No flaw at all for your Creationist position is shown by the above references to be false.

And my position is blasphemous? Not any more than your system that attempts to put God in a box.

My God is not in a box, and I lack the ability, power, and desire to put Him there.

Regarding Calvin - I am aware of the Synod of Dort. I assume you are aware of the positions of R.T. Kendall and Norman Geisler, and other more rational experts like Curt Daniel. There is obviously some disagreement as to Calvin's position on the atonement. I don't plan to debate that here.

Which would, of course, be irrelevant anyway.

Calvinism is a rational system which is internally valid - but that doesn't make it any more valid than any other human theological construct.

Particular redemption is a biblical system direct from God, through His word.

 

[Charles Meadows]

DocC

original sin affects the whole man, including the soul.

You're not advocating traducianism are you?

One need not, as Turretin pointed out, see the soul as physically descended from the parents, (and thus originally from Adam and Eve) in order to see original

And you did not answer my question. Are we capable of living without sin? Is it permitted by our nature?

DocC #2

 

[TCassidy]

Originally posted by Charles Meadows:
You're not advocating traducianism are you?

Yes.

Are we capable of living without sin? Is it permitted by our nature?

No. As long as the sin nature is present we will sin.

 

[Me4Him]

Originally posted by TCassidy:
You seem to be confused regarding origin of the individual soul. I suggest you do a study on Traducianism. If you do you will find that (1) God's breathing into man the breath of life is not said to be repeated after Adam (Gen. 2:7); (2) Adam begat a son in his own likeness (Gen. 5:3); (3) God's resting (Gen. 2:2 - 3) suggests no fresh acts of creation ex nihilo; and (4) original sin affects the whole man, including the soul.

Flesh has life through "blood/Air".

Our "Soul" is a "Spirit", and only God can give life to a "Spirit".

Our soul, being the "breath of God" will live as long as God lives, this is why we have "Eternity" facing us.

Man may "recreate" any/all parts of the Body, but he will never be able to "breathe life" into the "PILE OF DUST" that makes man.

The "shedding of blood" will restore our "resurrected bodies" back to that "pile of dust" kept alive by "SPIRIT", as it was originally created.

Eze 18:20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die.

Flesh dies regardless of the "Soul's" condition, but for the soul to sin, it must posses the "knowledge of good and evil".

 

[TCassidy]

Originally posted by Me4Him:
Our "Soul" is a "Spirit", and only God can give life to a "Spirit".

You have confused "soul" and "spirit." The soul (Hebrew "nephesh" and Greek "psuche") is defined as the "will, intellect, and emotions." Those are functions of the flesh.

The "spirit" (Hebrew "ruwach" Greek "pneuma") which is defined as "the disposition or influence which fills and governs the soul."

They are not the same thing.

 

[Charles Meadows]

DocC,

On the issue of traducianism I cannot agree. I adhere to the "creationist" stance.

If, as long as sin nature is present we will sin, we can have no hope for salvation but that we be "drawn". If that drawing is foreknown, with some to be drawn and others not, then some individuals have no chance to ever be saved.

The Calvinist cannot escape this fact. The apparent injustice can be "righted" by appealing to God's wisdom, foreknowledge of the person's heart or otherwise - but the fact remains that these never had a chance to be saved.

I for one see that as inconsistent with what Jesus taught. And since both Calvinism and Arminianism (I dislike "isms") have scriptures to back up their positions (in NT and OT) I see no clear mandate for a Calvinist interpretation to supervene, unless one feels compelled to force God into the framework he has determined.

 

[Timtoolman]

Originally posted by ILUVLIGHT:
Hi Tim;
If I'm confused! then look carefully at your post at the top of the page.
First it says in you own words originally posted by monergist. Then what I said is presented. Seems your the one confused monergist didn't say what I said. By the way who's snip?
Your post is barely readable the way you have it arranged. If you would like a clearer reply be clearer in your post.
May Christ Shine His Light On Us All;
Mike

Sorry Mike, I see I qouted you and monergist also. I was refering to her comments about what you said. But feel free to lash out freely!

Tim

 

[Me4Him]

Originally posted by TCassidy:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Me4Him:
Our "Soul" is a "Spirit", and only God can give life to a "Spirit".

You have confused "soul" and "spirit." The soul (Hebrew "nephesh" and Greek "psuche") is defined as the "will, intellect, and emotions." Those are functions of the flesh.

The "spirit" (Hebrew "ruwach" Greek "pneuma") which is defined as "the disposition or influence which fills and governs the soul."

They are not the same thing. </font>[/QUOTE]Ge 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

I understand that a soul can exist without God, as it will in hell, but what is required to "create a soul"??

A woman getting pregnant, I don't think so, If God doesn't give it a soul, it will be nothing but a "pile of dust", "dead at birth".

Joh 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit (breath of God) is spirit. (soul)