According to Dave Hunt, It's a Good Thing That I was Arminian First...

[TCassidy]

Originally posted by Charles Meadows:
On the issue of traducianism I cannot agree. I adhere to the "creationist" stance.

What then do you do with Genesis 5:3 "And Adam lived an hundred and thirty years, and begat a son in his own likeness, after his image; and called his name Seth:"?

If, as long as sin nature is present we will sin, we can have no hope for salvation but that we be "drawn". If that drawing is foreknown, with some to be drawn and others not, then some individuals have no chance to ever be saved.

I don't know what conditions God has set for election, but I know that nothing good that I have done places me in a position to be worthy of salvation. I don't try to second guess God. I know that those He saves are those He plans to save and I will not deny Him His Sovereign right to do as He wishes.

The Calvinist cannot escape this fact.

Neither can the non-Calvinist.

The apparent injustice can be "righted" by appealing to God's wisdom, foreknowledge of the person's heart or otherwise - but the fact remains that these never had a chance to be saved.

And the same is true of any lost person.

I for one see that as inconsistent with what Jesus taught.

I believe Jesus was a great believer in the Sovereignty of God.

And since both Calvinism and Arminianism (I dislike "isms") have scriptures to back up their positions (in NT and OT) I see no clear mandate for a Calvinist interpretation to supervene, unless one feels compelled to force God into the framework he has determined.

I see no scriptural warrant for Arminianism. Either salvation is all of God or it is not. There is no middle ground.

 

[TCassidy]

Originally posted by Me4Him:
I understand that a soul can exist without God, as it will in hell, but what is required to "create a soul"??

A woman getting pregnant, I don't think so, If God doesn't give it a soul, it will be nothing but a "pile of dust", "dead at birth".

Genesis 5:3 "And Adam lived an hundred and thirty years, and begat a son in his own likeness, after his image; and called his name Seth:"

 

[Paul33]

Yes, they did have a chance to be saved. Jesus Christ died for the sins of the world. God desires that none perish.

But God is God. He cannot not know what creatures will do that he decides to create. His desire is that his fallen creatures not rebel as he draws them to himself. But if they do rebel, he can't help but foreknow it.

They had a choice in the mind of God, he creates the universe, and they act according to what he foreknew. He doesn't coerce their will, but they choose their fate. And God knew it before he created them.

 

[Paul33]

IMO, a soul exists at the moment of fertilization. We bear after our own kind. A zygote is a 100 % genetic human being. It stands to reason that a human being has a soul.

 

[Ray Berrian]

I believe the Bible as is written, but I must say that Biblical interpretation falls best within the Arminian framework.

Yes, we believe salvation is by God alone, by grace alone. Sinners cannot take themselves by their own bootstraps and even attempt to see the beatific vision of God in Heaven.

The only conduit that reaches the Being of God is a man or woman's faith in Christ. Hebrews 11:3 tells us that sinners must come to the Lord and without faith it is impossible to please Him.

Think clearly for one time. If faith was God's gift to sinners--they would not have find faith to believe in Jesus. He would have given it to your alleged elect sinners soon to be saints and they would not have to try to please Him by faith.

Faith is always a sinners response to the calling of the Holy Spirit to salvation in His Name and through His Being.

If the Lord were to hand out election to certain people all by Himself, free from human response the last part of Hebrews 11:6 would be a foolish thought.

'. . . and He (Jesus) is the rewarder of those who DILIGENTLY SEEK HIM.' This statement is galaxies away from John Calvin's thinking.

Dr. Berrian

 

[Monergist]

Originally posted by Timtoolman:
Sorry Mike, I see I qouted you and monergist also. I was refering to her comments about what you said. But feel free to lash out freely!

For the record, I'm not a her.

 

[Me4Him]

Originally posted by TCassidy:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Me4Him:
I understand that a soul can exist without God, as it will in hell, but what is required to "create a soul"??

A woman getting pregnant, I don't think so, If God doesn't give it a soul, it will be nothing but a "pile of dust", "dead at birth".

Genesis 5:3 "And Adam lived an hundred and thirty years, and begat a son in his own likeness, after his image; and called his name Seth:" </font>[/QUOTE]Did you miss the point that initally "Adam/Eve" were kept alive By Spirit, not blood??

After sinning, bood became the medium which kept their Bodies alive.

And, being sinners, "SEED AFTER THEIR OWN KIND", was all they could produce. "ORIGINAL SIN".

Ge 1:12 And the earth brought forth grass, and herb yielding seed after his kind, and the tree yielding fruit, whose seed was in itself, after his kind: and God saw that it was good.

Jesus was a "SEED" planted in the earth, and produced 'SEED AFTER HIS OWN KIND", Sons of God.

"A "TREE" (person) is know by their fruit".

God's "SEED" in man is "HIS SPRIIT", (Soul) and it is "PERFECT" until it "Conceives sin". (knowledge of sin)

Jas 1:14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.

15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.

Eze 18:20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die.

and the tree (Person) yielding fruit, (good/bad) whose seed was in itself, (soul) after his kind: (God's image)

 

[TCassidy]

I am sorry Me4Him but you are making absolutely no sense at all. The question is, "does God create each individual soul or is the creation of the soul a part of nature reproduction 'after its kind'?"

It has nothing at all to do with Ruckman's stupid "water in the veins" nonsense.

 

[Timtoolman]

[/qb][/QUOTE]For the record, I'm not a her. [/qb][/QUOTE]


Sorry, Monergist.

 

[Me4Him]

Originally posted by TCassidy:
I am sorry Me4Him but you are making absolutely no sense at all. The question is, "does God create each individual soul or is the creation of the soul a part of nature reproduction 'after its kind'?"

It has nothing at all to do with Ruckman's stupid "water in the veins" nonsense.

The Jews teach that there are "Four" levels of understanding to scripture, I can't names or spell them, but nevertheless,

The first level is the simple reading of scripture,

"in three days", 72 hours.

The second level is a little "deeper".

"in three days", 3000 years. (day=1000 years)

The "third and Fourth", are even deeper, of which I haven't arrived at, "YET",

But I do know they are there.

What so hard about understanding that it requires a "Spirit" (God) to give life to a "Spirit"?? (soul)

The second level is really simple once you start understanding it, and it's not "nonsense".

Other than seeing the name "Ruckman" posted here, I've never heard of the man before, I live way back in the woods.

 

[TCassidy]

All of this has nothing whatsoever to do with the fact that you have confused "soul" with "spirit." They are not the same thing.

 

[Pastor Larry]

The Jews teach that there are "Four" levels of understanding to scripture,

I don't think that was Jewish. I believe it came from Origen. In either case, that doesn't make it right.

 

[Me4Him]

Originally posted by TCassidy:
All of this has nothing whatsoever to do with the fact that you have confused "soul" with "spirit." They are not the same thing.

Ps 51:5 Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.

God made Man from "Dust" (flesh) and then told Satan he would "EAT DUST", God gave "FLESH" to Satan for his "BREAD OF LIFE" in the same sense that Jesus's body became our "Bread of life".

Ge 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

Ge 3:14 And the LORD God said unto the serpent, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life:

Jews kept the "purifying water" in "stone jars", because impurities could peneterate the pores of an "EARTHEN VESSEL" (dust/flesh) making it impossible to purify. (sinless)

Le 11:33 And every earthen vessel, whereinto any of them falleth, whatsoever is in it shall be unclean; and ye shall break it.


Man is born in the flesh, (in sin) but that "Soul" (Spirit) inside the flesh is as perfect as it's "Creator", until it eats of the tree of "knowledge of good and evil".
(age of accountablility)

Everything God creates is "PERFECT", he "NEVER" creates any "vessels fit for destruction", those are the results of "man's sin", not God.


Being saved is God "reclaiming" that soul his "breath of life" created.

Air/wind are the physical counterparts of "Spirit".

Ge 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

Ac 2:2 And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind,(Holy
Ghost)

Joh 3:8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

I'd suggest learning what the "Symbols" (physical counterparts, wind=spirit) represents.

 

[Me4Him]

Originally posted by Pastor Larry:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />The Jews teach that there are "Four" levels of understanding to scripture,

I don't think that was Jewish. I believe it came from Origen. In either case, that doesn't make it right. </font>[/QUOTE]1. P'shat
2. Remez
3. Drash
4. Sod

The "P'shat" is a simple understanding of Jesus returning from Egypt, However,

Remez

Matthew 2:15 - "Out of Egypt I called my son." This is a quote from Hosea 11:1 that Matthew is applying to Yeshua.

Ho 11:1 When Israel was a child, then I loved him, and called my son out of Egypt.


If we were to insist on a literal exegesis only and researched the quote, we would have to accuse Matthew of improperly using Scripture, as Hosea is clearly speaking of the nation of Israel, and not the Messiah. Matthew however, is hinting (remez) at the relationship between Israel and the Messiah, in this and other verses he uses.

Mt 2:13 And when they were departed, behold, the angel of the Lord appeareth to Joseph in a dream, saying, Arise, and take the young child and his mother, and flee into Egypt, and be thou there until I bring thee.

Mt 2:14 When he arose, he took the young child and his mother by night, and departed into Egypt:

15 And was there until the death of Herod: that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying, Out of Egypt have I called my son.

Larry, anything I post/can't prove, I'll "preface" it with "I believe" or "I think".

 

[TCassidy]

You are still confusing soul and spirit. They are not the same thing.

 

[Pastor Larry]

Larry, anything I post/can't prove, I'll "preface" it with "I believe" or "I think".

You certainly can't prove the theological positions you have been arguing for, but you didn't preface any of them with anything. Your whole thing about symbols is incorrect. It "can't be proven" for obvious reasons.

If we were to insist on a literal exegesis only and researched the quote, we would have to accuse Matthew of improperly using Scripture, as Hosea is clearly speaking of the nation of Israel, and not the Messiah. Matthew however, is hinting (remez) at the relationship between Israel and the Messiah, in this and other verses he uses.

Actually what Matthew did was use an illustration of something. That has nothing to do with any deeper meaning of any sort.

 

[ILUVLIGHT]

Hi Timtoolman;

Sorry Mike, I see I qouted you and monergist also. I was refering to her comments about what you said. But feel free to lash out freely!

Okay here goes who's (snip)? I really didn't think that Monergist was a her. He certainly doesn't post like a her.

Just kidding you Tim at least I know that I'm not the only one here who has ever typed something wrong. Don't worry about it it's no big deal. This is still just a debate not a war.

May Christ Shine His Light On Us All;
Mike

 

[Ray Berrian]

ILUVLIGHT,

For the benefit of Calvinists God should have written it in bold print in Greek the words,

'WHAT IF GOD . . . .'

The Word sure does not say that the Lord operates in this autocratic mode.

Ray

 

[Me4Him]

Originally posted by Pastor Larry:
[QB] </font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Larry, anything I post/can't prove, I'll "preface" it with "I believe" or "I think".

You certainly can't prove the theological positions you have been arguing for, but you didn't preface any of them with anything. Your whole thing about symbols is incorrect. It "can't be proven" for obvious reasons.
</font>[/QUOTE]Stop sucking "AIR" into your body, and see how long you'll live.

Refuse to take in God's "SPIRIT", and see how long you'll live.

"EVERYTHING" in this world, and it's "Systems", (how we do things) are all "CARBON COPIES" of the "SPIRITUAL".

The "Natural light" (Sun) wasn't created until the "Fourth day", want to guess what day Jesus, the "spiritual light" came into the world??

As Jesus is the Head of his bride, Church,
Man is the head of his bride, Wife.

And why do we use a "SEVEN DAY" week??

"six days shall thy work, but the sabbath (7th) shall be a "day of rest". (Mill reign, day=1000 years)

Man plants a seed for "natural bread"
God planted a seed for "Spiritual bread".

Did you know that when that "Old serpent", Satan, is bound up during the Mill Reign, snakes here on earth won't bite, and "LIONS" won't "EAT FLESH", but "Straw".

Isa 11:7 And the cow and the bear shall feed; their young ones shall lie down together: and the lion shall eat straw like the ox.

8 And the sucking child shall play on the hole of the asp, and the weaned child shall put his hand on the cockatrice' den.

9 They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain: for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the LORD, as the waters cover the sea.

1Pe 5:8 Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour:

The "Spiritual" is manifested here in the "physical world" in more ways than you can imagine.

 

[ILUVLIGHT]

Hi Ray;
Rom 9:22 What if God, willing to show his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

Funny how an proposed idea gets turned in to fact.

I just thank God that I don't have to make scripture fit my doctrine. That my doctrine comes from God's word.
May Christ Shine His Light On Us All;
Mike