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Accuracy and Precision

Craigbythesea

Well-Known Member
QuickeningSpirit writes,

The statement of the nas"v" that the word is tried in a furnace on the earth does not determine the furnace, but does indicate the location. That is a direct contradiction to scripture, God hasn't placed His Word on the earth to be tried in any furnace, but His Word is forever settled in Heaven. Uh, guess where that furnace is He used to purify His Word? Uh, that word "settled" means a little more than just coming to rest.
Your statement in the first sentence in the above paragraph is fictitious. The NAS“B” does not state that the words of the LORD are tried in a furnace, nor does it even suggest that they are. It says that they are pure, just as the KJ“V” does, and compares them, just as the KJ“V” does, with silver that has been refined in a furnace. The KJ“V” is at fault here, for it says that silver is “purified” in a furnace when the more accurate word is “refined” as in the NAS“B.”

Your statement in the second sentence in the above paragraph is also fictitious. There is no contradiction to the Scripture in this verse in the NASB. Your supposed contradiction is based solely on the false statement that you made in your first sentence.

Your question in the third sentence in the above paragraph is based solely on the fictitious information in your first two sentences, and is therefore meaningless. And the KJV does not say that God used a furnace to purify His Word; it COMPARES the Word with silver that has been purified in a furnace. No where in the Bible does it say that silver is purified in a furnace in heaven, but it does say that silver is refined in a furnace on the earth. You have radically misread both the KJ“V” and the NAS“B.” If you would read both of these translations very carefully, you would know for yourself that the NASB is the more accurate translation and that it is easier to read—exactly the combination that we all need in a translation of the Bible.

Your statement in the fourth sentence in the above paragraph is irrelevant. Psalm 119:89, "For ever, O LORD, thy word is settled in heaven," does not say anything at all about any TRANSLATION of the Word of God; it speaks only about the actual Word of God. Please be more careful when you read the Bible.



Psa 12:6. The words of the LORD are pure words; As silver tried in a furnace on the earth, refined seven times.
Psa 12:7. You, O LORD, will keep them; You will preserve him from this generation forever.
NASB, 1995 Update

Psa 12:6 The words of the LORD are pure words: as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times.
Psa 12:7 Thou shalt keep them, O LORD, thou shalt preserve them from this generation for ever.
KJV
 
I hope this isn't the effort to show us your intelligence

------------------------------------------------------------------------
No, I have an I.Q. of 195, a Ph.D. in linguistics from Stanford, a Th.D. from Princeton, and I am fluent in 14 languages including English, but I still don’t know the early 17th century meaning of half of the words in this list even though I have read through the KJV 50 or 60 times. How many of the words in this list do you know the early 17th century meaning of?
------------------------------------------------------------------------


Craig, in spite of your awe inspiring intelligence, (at least, I'm in awe), you must be a slow learner if you have read through the KJB 40 or 50 times, looked up the words to the point that you wore out the pages of your dictionary, and still don't know the meanings of these words.

Maybe you should try these easier ones found in such updates as the NKJV, NIV. The nasb is actually harder than either of these two.


Words in the New King James Version

Those who criticize the King James Bible as being too hard to understand should consider giving this vocabulary test to their children, or even take it themselves. Try giving a definition of these words and see if you would get a passing score.

The vocabulary of the New King James Version, along with some "helpful hints".

Abase, abashed, abode, adhere, admonish, adversity, aground, algum, alienate, alighting, allays, allotment, alloy, aloof, alms, amend, amiss, annihilated, anise, antitype, arbitrate, apprehended, archives, armlets, ascertain, asps, attire, austere, backbite, banishment, baths (not to get clean), bdellium, befalls, beggarly, begetting, behemoth, belial, beseech, betrothal, beveled, birthstools, bittern, bleat, booty (not modern slang), borne, breach, brandished (not drunk), bray, bristling, buffet (not a restaurant), buckler (not a belt), bulrush, (not a stampede), burnished, butress (not a chair), calamus, caldron, capital (not a city), carcasses, carnally, carrion (not luggage), cassia, caulkers, centurion (not a 100 years), chalcedony, chalkstones, chaste (not pursued by a runner), chasten, (not related to previous chaste), chrysolite, chrysoprase, circumspect, cistern (not feminine of brethren), citadel, citron, clamor, cleft, cloven (not a spice), commission (not money), commonwealth (not shared money), compound (not a barracks), concede , compulsory, conciliation, concubine (not a tractor), congealed, contemptuously, confederacy (not the South), contingents (not same as large land masses), corban, coriander, countenance (not adding up ants), couriers (not an hordourve), covert, crags, crescents, crest (not the top of a hill), cropped (not food), cubit, custodian (not the one who cleans the school halls), curds, dainties (not effeminate), dandled, daubed, dappled, dayspring, denarii, deposed (not relaxing after a foto op), deride (not same as dismount), despoiled (not really, really rotten), diadem, diffuses (not to disarm a bomb), dilapidation (not the act of standing up), dispensation, disrepute, dissipation, diviner (not a grape grower), docile, dragnet (not a detective drama), dregs, drachmas, dropsy (not clumsiness), dross, dryshod, eczema (God bless you), edict, edification, elaborate, embellish, emitted, enigma, enmity, entrails (not a short cut), envoy, eventide, epistle, ephod, exorcise (not jogging), expiration (not a date on a carton of milk), faction, fallow, famish, fare (not average and not money), fatlings (not piglets), feigned (not passed out), festal, fetched, fidelity (not good sound), figurehead (not a statue of a head), filly, flanges, foreskin, fostered, fowlers (not a baseball term), fuller (not less empty), furlongs (not cat tails), gad, garland, garrison, gaunt, gecko, graven, Hellenists, hew (not a man's name), homers (not baseball), hoopoe (not a garden tool), immutability, indignant, insolence, insubordination, intervene, itinerant, jackdaw, jeopardy (a TV show, but what does it mean?), jubilation, kors (not a brand of beer), laden, lamentations, laud (not Boston pronunciation of lard), lusty, mail (not a letter), mammon, matrix (other than the movie), mattock (not a TV lawyer show), mercenaries, mina (not a type of bird), mite (not a bed bug), moorings, nativity, offal (not terrible), offscouring (not dandruff), omnipotent, onager (Job 39:5 - you won't believe this one!) oracle, pangs, papyrus (not a fruit), paramours, parapet(not a dog and a cat), penitents, perdition, phylacteries, pilfering, pillage, pims, pins (not like needles or bowling- has to do with a chariot), pinions (not a type of nut), plaited (not dishes), platitudes, potentate, potsherd, poultice (not chickens), Praetorium (not a place to pray), prattler, principality, prodigal, proconsul, prognosticators (not people who put things off till later), propitiation, pslatery, prow, pulverize, pyre, quadrans, quiver (not to shake), rampart (not a piece of a truck), ravenous, ravished, raze (not to lift up), reconciliation, recount (not to double check your arithmetic), rend, renown, reprisal, retinue, rifled (does not have to do with guns), rivulets, rogue, salute ( does not have to do with the army), satiate, satraps, scruples, sepulcher, shamefaced, shards, Sheol, shod, shuttle (not a type of bus or spaceship), siegeworks, sistrums (not an affectionate term for your sisters), skiff, soothsayer, spelt (not anything to do with spelling words), straits (not the opposite of crookeds), superfluous, supplanted, tamarisk, tares, tarries, temperate, terebinth, terrestrial, tetrarch, throng (not a skimpy bathing suit), timbrel, tittle (not the name of a book), tresses, usury, vagabond, vassal, vehement, vermilion, verdure, verity, vestments, waifs, wane, wanton (not desiring something), warp (not to bend), wend, wield, winebibber, woof (not a dog or stereo), wrought.

NIV Vocabulary Test


Ask your son or daughter if they can define these words. It is highly unlikely that most high school students would get a passing grade on such a vocabulary test. In fact, you too would probably not pass it. Try it and see how you do.

Words found in the NIV.

abashed, abominable, abutted, acclaim, adder, adhere, admonishing, advocate, alcove, algum, allocate, allots, ally, aloes, appease, ardent, armlets, arrayed, astir, atonement, awl, banishment, battlements, behemoth, belial, bereaves, betrothed, bier, blighted, booty, brayed, breaching, breakers, buffeted, burnished, calamus, capital (not a city), carnelian, carrion, centurions, chasm, chronic, chrysolite, cistern, citadel, citron, clefts, cohorts, colonnades, complacency, coney, concession, congealed, conjure, contrite, convocations, crest, cors, curds, dandled, dappled, debauchery, decimated, deluged, denarii, depose, derides, despoil, dire,dispossess, disrepute, dissipation, distill, dissuade, divination, dragnet, dropsy, duplicity, earthenware, ebony, emasculate, emission, encroach, enmity, enthralled, entreaty, ephod, epicurean, ewe, excrement, exodus, factions, felled, festal, fettered, figurehead, filigree, flagstaff, fomenting, forded, fowler, gadfly, galled, gird, gauntness, gecko, gloating, goiim, harrowing, haunt, hearld, henna, homers, hoopoe, ignoble, impaled, implore, incur, indignant, insatiable, insolence, intact, invoked, jambs, joists, jowls, lairs, lamentation, leviathan, libations, loins, magi, manifold, maritime, mattocks, maxims, mina, misdemeanor, mother-of-pearl, mustering, myrtles, naive, naught, Negev, Nephilim, nettles, nocturnal, nomad, notorious, Nubians, oblivion, obsolete, odious, offal, omer, oracles, overweening, parapet, parchments, pavilion, peals (noun, not the verb), perjurers, perpetuate, pestilence, pinions, phylacteries, plumage, pomp, porphyry, portent, potsherd, proconsul, propriety, poultice, Praetorium, pretext, profligate, promiscuity, provincial, providence, qualm, quarries, quivers (noun, not verb), ramparts, ransacked, ratified, ravish, rabble, rawboned, relish (not for hotdogs), recoils, recount, refrain, relent, rend, reposes, reprimanded, reputed, retinue, retorted, retribution, rifts, roebucks, rue, sachet, satraps, sated, shipwrights, siegeworks, sinews, sistrums, sledges, smelted, somber, soothsayer, sovereignty, spelt, stadia, stench, stipulation, sullen, tamarisk, tanner, temperate, tether, tetrarch, terebinth, thresher, throes, thronged, tiaras, tinder, tracts, transcends, tresses, turbulent, tyrannical, unscathed, unrelenting, usury, vassal, vaunts, vehemently, verdant, vexed, wadi, wanton, warranted, wield, winnowing and wrenched.

It is funny that I can put together the phrase from the KJB which says; “The very sad green giant was hungry” and in the NIV it would be: "The overweening dejected verdant Nephilim was famished."

So you see, the modern versions also have many words that are hard to be understood.

Will Kinney
 

skanwmatos

New Member
D. A. Waite, Jr., has written a study he calls Six Bible Versions Compared on Readability--A Comparison of the KJB, NKJV, ASV, RSV, NRSV, and NIV. He took the first chapter of every book in the Bible, from Genesis through Revelation and compared the six versions of the Bible mentioned above. In this sampling, the KJV, over all, has a "Flesch Grade Level" of from 6.1 to 8.6. The NIV, on the other hand, has a "Flesch Grade Level" of from 6.1 to 11.0!!

You can purchase two such studies,

OP2486 277 $27.50 Reading Ease of the King James Bible--Six Versions Compared Waite, Mr. D. A., Jr. BFT C13C3C

PB2671 84 $5.00 The Comparative Readability of the Authorized Version--7 Versions Waite, Mr. D. A., Jr. BFT C13C3C

at : http://www.biblefortoday.org/BFT_Catalog/category_C13a-c.htm
 

BrianT

New Member
Originally posted by skanwmatos:
In this sampling, the KJV, over all, has a "Flesch Grade Level" of from 6.1 to 8.6. The NIV, on the other hand, has a "Flesch Grade Level" of from 6.1 to 11.0!!
Waite's research is deliberately skewed. The "rules" he used for input. The genealogy of Matt 1, because it uses commas in the NIV instead of semi-colons like the KJV, is evaluated by the system to be a gigantic run-on sentence, which results in an astronomical "Flesch Grade Level" (according to the system, not even university professors would be able to able to read Matt 1 in the NIV), which in turn pulls the NIV's average *way* up. However, my grade 3 daughter has no problems with Matt 1 in the NIV. Until tests are redone taking things like this into account, Waite's "research" is both trash and deceptive.
 

TC

Active Member
Site Supporter
Nice try Will, but wrong again. Most of the words are used today and are easily understood. Many are also in the KJV. So, if they are hard to understand in the NKJV or NIV, then they are also hard to understand in the KJV.
 

ScottEmerson

Active Member
Okay, so I knew literally all of those words. Place a list of KJV words up there, and I'd miss at least half of them, since their definition has completely changed. I'm not going to tell you my IQ, but I did take English classes in college.
 

robycop3

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Originally posted by QuickeningSpirit:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Craigbythesea:
Psa 12:6 The words of the LORD are pure words: as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times.
Psa 12:7 Thou shalt keep them, O LORD, thou shalt preserve them from this generation for ever.
KJV

Psa 12:6. The words of the LORD are pure words; As silver tried in a furnace on the earth, refined seven times.
Psa 12:7. You, O LORD, will keep them; You will preserve him from this generation forever.
NASB, 1995 Update

Praise God! His truth shall remain truth forever!


Scott,

Thank you for your posts. I enjoyed reading them. Keep up the good work!
Uh, you'd better pay closer attention to the Bible. The nas"v" uses the word "refined" indicating the works of men, allowing bits and pieces of error to slip through, remember, man is fallable, God is not. That is why I know the nas"v" is NOT the Word of God.

The statement of the nas"v" that the word is tried in a furnace on the earth does not determine the furnace, but does indicate the location. That is a direct contradiction to scripture, God hasn't placed His Word on the earth to be tried in any furnace, but His Word is forever settled in Heaven. Uh, guess where that furnace is He used to purify His Word? Uh, that word "settled" means a little more than just coming to rest.

The nas"v" confuses the passage by affilating the works of men in a place designed by men, and them saying the Lord preserved what man has refined, when from the "beginning" it was not so.

Yall keep trying to refine the Word and God has it purified seven times already. You really should consider what "seven times" indicates according to Jewish custom, uh, it means PERFECT! PURE!, not refined, man can only refine silver to a .999 purity, God has taken care of that .001 of dross. So let's not "add" dross to the KJB by saying the nas"v" is it's equivelent, when even to the least of us it's not hid.

You guys really crack me up!
laugh.gif
laugh.gif
laugh.gif
</font>[/QUOTE]Well, you really DID crack up on this one, Sir!

I'm a steelworker, and I worked as a cop only to have a job while I was laid off. I ran an electric arc furnace for a number of years, and in refinert terminology, "try" is to melt down a quantity of metal for the purpose of purifying it and making it into the target alloy. It was in the English terminology of 1611 in the same definitions it has today.

But the kicker is this: david was COMPARING God's words to a heat of silver purified 7 times, which even in those days would be pure silver indeed.(Most heats of silver were only purified twice in those days if it were from ore, and only once if it were a known silver item being melted.) This silver was probably the purest tangible thing known to David, and he wished to emphasize the purity of God's words. David was a prophet as well as a king anointed at God's command, & a man after God's own heart, and he knew how pure God's words are. GOD'S WORDS WERE PURE WHEN HE SAID THEM; they were NOT refined nor in need of purification.

Why can't people, especially KJVOs, pay attention to what the KJV says in this verse-that God's words are **AS**pure as silver that HAD ALREADY BEEN REFINED 7 times ?
 

Precepts

New Member
Ah, so you don't know either? Maybe the Hebrew would help?
Ah, when some one petitions for an answer they usually put it in question form. Hint:"?" :eek:

If one wouldn't just snatch verses out and post them, it would help to know the context, you think"?"
laugh.gif
 

Ed Edwards

<img src=/Ed.gif>
Originally posted by QuickeningSpirit:
Ah, when some one petitions for an answer they usually put it in question form. Hint:"?" :eek:

If one wouldn't just snatch verses out and post them, it would help to know the context, you think"?"
laugh.gif
Yep, context
can tell a lot.

Nu 31:50 (nKJV):

Therefore we have brought an offering for the Lord,
what every man found of ornaments of gold:
armlets and bracelets and signet rings and earrings
and necklaces, to make atonement for ourselves before the Lord.

From the context: armlet = like a bracelet but worn
on the upper arm.

From the dictionary: confirmed.

Yes, my "child" wants an armlet for each arm
(and some bracelets also ;) )

wave.gif
 

Precepts

New Member
it speaks only about the actual Word of God.
Then it would speak in English the KJB.
You will preserve him from this generation forever.
"him"? Who is this "him"?

Psalms 12:5 For the oppression of the poor, for the sighing of the needy, now will I arise, saith the LORD; I will set him in safety from him that puffeth at him.
6 The words of the LORD are pure words: as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times.
7 Thou shalt keep them, O LORD, thou shalt preserve them from this generation for ever.
8 The wicked walk on every side, when the vilest men are exalted.

When did "him" singular, jump to "them" plural?

If this isn't the words preserved, then why does the writer say "them"? and you say "him"?

"Words" is plural, "him" is singular. Besides, the wicked are the main characters of the passage, so the "words" are preserved,"them", not "him".

But now we do have the problem with the gender being masculine, not male. Not really a problem when you take John 1:1,2 to reference the light given to this passage.

Jesus is The Word, we as his disciples are little words, written epistles known and read by all men. We are the "poor and needy" aforementioned in verse 5, but preserved in Jesus, He who became poor so that we should be made rich. We also are tried in this "furnace" of the planet earth.

To divide the passage as in the opposing condition denotes error. There is no "error" in the Word of God/KJB, you should rely on the Spirit of God who will guide you into all truth. Know this, that all the Word of God is in perfect, pure, unchanging harmony. I cannot say that about the nas"v", nor have you shown the harmony by your contradicting terminology.

The "words"? Pure.Preserved. The "poor and needy"? Pure. Preserved. You see the harmony? If not you should ask the Lord to remove the scales of blindness from your eyes and throw that
" nas"" v "" " away.

Of course when you apply those same old corrupt mss you'll come up with the same old corrupt text.
 

Precepts

New Member
It is funny that I can put together the phrase from the KJB which says; “The very sad green giant was hungry” and in the NIV it would be: "The overweening dejected verdant Nephilim was famished."
Mr. Kinney?
laugh.gif
laugh.gif
That was great!
 

Craigbythesea

Well-Known Member
Originally posted by QuickeningSpirit:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Craigbythesea:
C. H. Spurgeon had this to say:

"It seems odd, that certain men who talk so much of what the Holy Spirit reveals to themselves, should think so little of what he has revealed to others."

The King James Bible Only gang does not have a monopoly on the Holy Spirit.

The King James Bible does not have a monopoly on accuracy.

Sorry you attempt to deify Spurgeon, but he too can be wrong, gifted yes, wrong on some points as well. </font>[/QUOTE]Distortion, distortion, distortion!!!

Where in my post did I attempt to deify Spurgeon?
 

Precepts

New Member
This silver was probably the purest tangible thing known to David, and he wished to emphasize the purity of God's words.
Cranston, you just kicked plenary and verbal inspiration out the door.

David "wished"? :rolleyes:
 

robycop3

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Originally posted by BrianT:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by skanwmatos:
In this sampling, the KJV, over all, has a "Flesch Grade Level" of from 6.1 to 8.6. The NIV, on the other hand, has a "Flesch Grade Level" of from 6.1 to 11.0!!
Waite's research is deliberately skewed. The "rules" he used for input. The genealogy of Matt 1, because it uses commas in the NIV instead of semi-colons like the KJV, is evaluated by the system to be a gigantic run-on sentence, which results in an astronomical "Flesch Grade Level" (according to the system, not even university professors would be able to able to read Matt 1 in the NIV), which in turn pulls the NIV's average *way* up. However, my grade 3 daughter has no problems with Matt 1 in the NIV. Until tests are redone taking things like this into account, Waite's "research" is both trash and deceptive. </font>[/QUOTE]There's a simple test that the average KJVO wouldn't wanna try in the presence of an impartial judge: simply choose a book & chapter at random, then hand one average 5th grader a KJV and another one an or NKJV with the chosen chapter bookmarked, ask each one to read it, & when they're finished, ask'em if they remember any words they didn't understand, and ask'em what the chapter was all about.
 
Originally posted by robycop3:
There's a simple test that the average KJVO wouldn't wanna try in the presence of an impartial judge: simply choose a book & chapter at random, then hand one average 5th grader a KJV and another one an or NKJV with the chosen chapter bookmarked, ask each one to read it, & when they're finished, ask'em if they remember any words they didn't understand, and ask'em what the chapter was all about.
that's right. that was the topic of an Ed.D. dissertation by Gail Linam in Dallas, n the results were devastating for the KJB, for both church campus kids n the bused kids.

check this out: http://www.post1.com/home/amarillo/Linam93.htm
 

Precepts

New Member
Originally posted by Ed Edwards:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by QuickeningSpirit:
Ah, when some one petitions for an answer they usually put it in question form. Hint:"?" :eek:

If one wouldn't just snatch verses out and post them, it would help to know the context, you think"?"
laugh.gif
Yep, context
can tell a lot.

Nu 31:50 (nKJV):

Therefore we have brought an offering for the Lord,
what every man found of ornaments of gold:
armlets and bracelets and signet rings and earrings
and necklaces, to make atonement for ourselves before the Lord.

From the context: armlet = like a bracelet but worn
on the upper arm.

From the dictionary: confirmed.

Yes, my "child" wants an armlet for each arm
(and some bracelets also ;) )

wave.gif
</font>[/QUOTE]Ed, now go back to the KJB and explain what "tablets" are? The context is "jewels" so the "tablets" are some sort of jewel, "amrlets" as you described, maybe?

But then the "braclets"? The are two distinct pieces of jewelry mentioned in the KJB: bracelets and tablets.

In Genesis we find the "bracelets" are for the hands, but that would go along with the hands being the forepart of the arm about 6" above the wrist and including the fingers, but "tablets" may just not be "armlets" as you described, but armlets the arms passed through as in a breastplate or in a coat of mail: "which, according to the Targum of Jonathan, were ornaments that hung down between the breasts"

Hmmm? Here's a nice juicy "steak" for you mv advoctaes, jump on it! :rolleyes:
 

Craigbythesea

Well-Known Member
Maybe you should try these easier ones found in such updates as the NKJV, NIV. The nasb is actually harder than either of these two.
Will,

You are right. All good translations of the Bible have many words in them that are not in the day to day vocabulary of most people, even Christians, indeed, even very well educated Christians. One reason for this is that there are many words in the Hebrew and Greek testaments that for which there are no equivalents in day to day to English. Personally, I don't like the NIV. I like the NKJV, but I freely admit that I have not read the whole thing like I have the KJV and the NASB.

I like the NASB better than the KJV mostly because of the very precise manner in which it translates Greek verbs, bringing out detailed meaning that is missing in many other Bible translations, including the KJV.

One example that most Bible readers are not familiar with is the Greek Historic Present Tense. I do not know of a single place in the KJV New Testament where it distinguishes between the Greek Present Tense and the Greek Historic Present Tense. Do you? I can cite many examples in the NASB New Testament were it distinguishes between these two tenses.
 

Precepts

New Member
Where in my post did I attempt to deify Spurgeon?
You posted Spurgeon's remarks as the rule and governing authority over spiritual matters. I find his statement rather arrogant and full of self flattery to think himself a sort of judge in the matter. Seems it had more "blade" than "shield".

I find the Bible to be the rule and governing authority in all affairs of life. Spurgeon: gifted, but not worthy of elevation above the common man.

Don't get me wrong, I often see what CHS has to say concerning a passage, but I also find him wrong part of the time. I never have found God to be wrong, I have tried Him at times, but always to find Him Right!

My little anecdote: Until you prove God right, you'll always be wrong.

Ricky Underwood, quotes allowed by permission.
 
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