You are not immersed in a symbol. There is no such thing as a "dry" baptism.
Christianity 101.
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Acts 10 - Cornelius - Question - Continued
- Thread starter LaGrange
- Start date
You are not immersed in a symbol. There is no such thing as a "dry" baptism.
Christianity 101.
...except for all those pesky verses which states baptism IS essential in order to have eternal life...
- You must be baptized to be saved. - Mark 16:16
- It is the normative means by which God brings people to newness of life - Romans 6:4.
- It means the old life and person has died in baptism and is made new, born again. - John 3:5
- It forgives sins. - Acts 2:38
- It washes sin away. - Acts 22:16
- It regenerates. - Titus 3:4-7
- In it we are buried and united us to Christ, and frees us from sin. - Romans 6:1-10
- It was typified in the Israelites crossing the Red Sea - 1 Corinthians 10:1-4
- It is how we become clothed with Christ. - Gal 3:26-27
- And yes, "saves" us. 1 Peter 3:21
37818
Well-Known Member
You are making things up.
You deny believer's immersion and what it actually means.
37818
Well-Known Member
No such Holy Scriptures. Or you would cite one.
Last edited:
These things in my post ---> 1 Peter 3:21
...are hyperlinks to Holy Scriptures. Try clicking on one.
There are ten of them in my post.
It is you who are denying baptism actually does something. This again strikes me odd that you care about the method of baptism given you do not actually believe baptism does that which Scripture states it does.
37818
Well-Known Member
The believer's immersion saves the believer as an anti-type of how Noah and his family were saved by flood, ". . .(not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ: . . ." So what was Noah and his family saved from by the flood?
37818
Well-Known Member
Nowhere in the word of God is belever's immersion a required means of eternal life.
Hi Everyone,
I thought it would be ok to answer this post here because it is about Baptism. I didn’t answer this very well because the thread was going to close and I didn’t have time to answer. This post was done on the first thread (Acts 10 - Cornelius - Question, post #135).
Here it is:
AustinC:
The word baptizo means "to dip" or "to immerse." It was a common word and did not have to be water. Baptism often is speaking of the Christians immersion into Christ. Paul's verse in Galatians 2:20 gets at the idea when he says he has been crucified with Christ nevertheless he lives. The Spirit immersed us into Christ, never to be removed from that plunge. Our sinful soul was made pure by the immersion into Christ by the Holy Spirit. The water baptism of the local church is a baptism into covenant with God, not a saving baptism as your church so unfortunately teaches.
Gal 2:19-20 ….with Christ I am nailed to the cross. 20 And I live, now not I: but Christ liveth in me. And that I live now in the flesh: I live in the faith of the Son of God, who loved me and delivered himself for me. (DRV)
Gal 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me. (KJV)
My Comment: The KJV cross references tie Gal 2:20 to Rom 6:6, Rom 6:11, Heb 9:14, Luke 20:38, Rom 14:7, Rom 8:37, Gal 1:4. My passage guide also includes Mark 10:38-39. Rom 6:6 and Rom 6:11 are directly tied to water baptism (Rom 6:3-4). So is Heb 9:14 because Heb 9:15 speaks of the Promise of Eternal Inheritance (see “heirs of life everlasting” through Water Baptism - 1 Pet 3:20-22). Luke 20:38 is tied to Rom 6:10 which is about Water Baptism (Rom 6:3-4). Rom 14:7 is tied to 1 Cor 6:19 which, in context, the whole chapter is about being Water Baptized ( 1 Cor 6:11). Mark 10:38-39 is all about Baptism described as by Immersion in death. Fr Lapide said Christ was immersed and drowned in death. Drowned sounds like water. The question is: How are we immersed in Christ’s death? Water Baptism. That’s why Mark 10:38-39 is tied to Gal 2:20 and Gal 2:20 is tied to Rom 6:6 and Rom 6:11 which is tied to water baptism (Rom 6:3-4). Another hint I saw was Mark 10:1 because it says Christ went “beyond the Jordan” and then began teaching about Baptism into His death. Of course, the Jordan is where Christ was Water Baptized (Matt 3:13,16). Also, in the Exodus, the jews crossed the Jordan to enter into the Promised Land (Joshua 3:15-17). The Promised Land signifies heaven. So it all fits together. Remember: There is only one Baptism and not a baptism of water and another baptism into Christ’s death and another baptism into the Spirit and another baptism into a covenant with God (Eph 4:5, 1 John 5:8).
I thought it would be ok to answer this post here because it is about Baptism. I didn’t answer this very well because the thread was going to close and I didn’t have time to answer. This post was done on the first thread (Acts 10 - Cornelius - Question, post #135).
Here it is:
AustinC:
The word baptizo means "to dip" or "to immerse." It was a common word and did not have to be water. Baptism often is speaking of the Christians immersion into Christ. Paul's verse in Galatians 2:20 gets at the idea when he says he has been crucified with Christ nevertheless he lives. The Spirit immersed us into Christ, never to be removed from that plunge. Our sinful soul was made pure by the immersion into Christ by the Holy Spirit. The water baptism of the local church is a baptism into covenant with God, not a saving baptism as your church so unfortunately teaches.
Gal 2:19-20 ….with Christ I am nailed to the cross. 20 And I live, now not I: but Christ liveth in me. And that I live now in the flesh: I live in the faith of the Son of God, who loved me and delivered himself for me. (DRV)
Gal 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me. (KJV)
My Comment: The KJV cross references tie Gal 2:20 to Rom 6:6, Rom 6:11, Heb 9:14, Luke 20:38, Rom 14:7, Rom 8:37, Gal 1:4. My passage guide also includes Mark 10:38-39. Rom 6:6 and Rom 6:11 are directly tied to water baptism (Rom 6:3-4). So is Heb 9:14 because Heb 9:15 speaks of the Promise of Eternal Inheritance (see “heirs of life everlasting” through Water Baptism - 1 Pet 3:20-22). Luke 20:38 is tied to Rom 6:10 which is about Water Baptism (Rom 6:3-4). Rom 14:7 is tied to 1 Cor 6:19 which, in context, the whole chapter is about being Water Baptized ( 1 Cor 6:11). Mark 10:38-39 is all about Baptism described as by Immersion in death. Fr Lapide said Christ was immersed and drowned in death. Drowned sounds like water. The question is: How are we immersed in Christ’s death? Water Baptism. That’s why Mark 10:38-39 is tied to Gal 2:20 and Gal 2:20 is tied to Rom 6:6 and Rom 6:11 which is tied to water baptism (Rom 6:3-4). Another hint I saw was Mark 10:1 because it says Christ went “beyond the Jordan” and then began teaching about Baptism into His death. Of course, the Jordan is where Christ was Water Baptized (Matt 3:13,16). Also, in the Exodus, the jews crossed the Jordan to enter into the Promised Land (Joshua 3:15-17). The Promised Land signifies heaven. So it all fits together. Remember: There is only one Baptism and not a baptism of water and another baptism into Christ’s death and another baptism into the Spirit and another baptism into a covenant with God (Eph 4:5, 1 John 5:8).
Hi Everyone,
I wanted to answer one possible objection. If someone were to critique my last post (#49), they would probably make the argument that Rom 6:3-4 doesn’t mention “Water”. It mentions Baptism but not water. The argument would be that, well, Baptism doesn’t necessarily mean Baptism with “Water” because Rom 6:3-4 says we are “Baptized in His death”.
The Short Answer
Matt 3:16 And Jesus being baptized, forthwith came out of the water: and lo, the heavens were opened to him: and he saw the Spirit of God descending as a dove, and coming upon him.
Matt 3:16 tells the whole story. At The Baptism of Jesus three things were present: The Water, The Word (Jesus Christ) and the Spirit. Also, the “Heavens were opened”. All three of these define Baptism. You cannot go by the “definition” or the “greek term” Baptism alone because all it means is a “physical washing”. The “term” Baptism defines the OT Types (1 Cor 10:2,11). You must now go by the NT fulfillment of the definition of Baptism which includes the Water (the physical washing), but also the Word and the Spirit (Matt 3:16, Matt 28:19). Baptism became a sacrament (bestowed Grace) when Christ was Baptized in the Jordan (Matt 3:13,16).
The Long Answer
We need both 3:16’s:
John 3:16 and Matt 3:16
(Believe and Baptism)
Baptism of Jesus = Matt 3:16
Matt 3:16 And Jesus being baptized, forthwith came out of the water: and lo, the heavens were opened to him: and he saw the Spirit of God descending as a dove, and coming upon him.
The Greek word for “Baptism” in Matt 3:16 = the Greek word for “Baptism” in Rom 6:3-4. (Strong’s #907)
The Greek word for “Water” in Matt 3:16 = the Greek word for “Water” in Eph 5:26 (Laver of Water)(Strong’s #5204)
The Greek word for “Water” in Matt 3:16 = the Greek word for “Water” in John 19:34 (Strong’s #5204)
Eph 5:26 Laver (washing) of Water
Titus 3:5 Laver (washing) of Regeneration
(These verses show that Baptism with Water produces Regeneration)
The same Greek word (Strong’s #907) for baptism used in Matt 3:16 is used in Gal 3:27, Mark 10:38, Mark 16:16, Acts 2:38, Acts 10:47-48, Acts 22:16, Rom 6:3, Gal 3:27 (Gal 3:27 is not far from Gal 2:20). This ties Water Baptism (Matt 3:16) to Rom 6:3-4. Also, “Water” used in Matt 3:16 is the same “Water” used in Eph 5:26 (Laver of Water)(Strong’s #5204) and it is also the same “Water” that flowed from Christ’s side (John 19:34). It was REAL water and this Water had “Power” because it is the same Water that flowed from Christ’s side while on the cross.
Baptism always includes Water
Baptism always includes water. It’s true that Rom 6:3-4 doesn’t mention “Water” but it doesn’t have to because, by definition, Baptism includes Water. Baptism means to “Wash” (Strong’s #907). If You say Baptism doesn’t always include water it is probably because you are not thinking about all the “Causes” of Baptism (see below). Christ made Baptism a Sacrament when He plunged into the Jordan (Matt 3:16) according to Aquinas (STh., III q.39 a.1). At that point, Baptism became more than just a term (a physical washing). Baptism became a Sacrament which means it became an instrument of grace . All the “Causes” of Baptism were present when Christ was baptized: The Water, the Word and the Spirit (1 John 5:7-8) and the “Heavens were opened” (Matt 3:16) which is an “Effect” of Baptism. What this means is that by the instrument of “Water” (Baptism), these things happened. This means these things didn’t happen separate from the “Water”. ALL of these elements combined, define the Sacrament of Baptism. Rom 6:3-4 describes the “Meritorious Cause” of Baptism (Trent) which is Jesus Christ who, by His death (Rom 6:3-4, John 19:34) and Resurrection (Rom 6:4, Matt 27:53), opened the gates of heaven (Mark 16:19, Acts 1:2). The “Instrumental Cause” of Baptism is the “Water and the Word” (Eph 5:26).
I don’t think you would call the Baptism of Jesus just an ordinance when you consider the “heavens were opened” and the “spirit came down” (Matt 3:16). The separation of Water from the Spirit is THE MISTAKE. You could say we are immersed in the Spirit or immersed in Christ but these are “Causes” and “Effects” of the instrument of Water Baptism. You cannot separate immersion of the Spirit or the immersion of Christ from the Water (1 John 5:8, Eph 4:5) because Christ showed us that Water Baptism is the way (Matt 3:16).
Many denominations Baptize two of more times even though scripture teaches against it (Eph 4:5). They say they have been “Baptized into Christ” or “Immersed in the Spirit” or whatever, but THEN Baptize with Water as an Ordinance. That’s because they separate the Water from the Spirit in error. We don’t say there is a Baptism of Water (Purification), a Baptism into Christ’s death, a Baptism into Christ’s resurrection, a Baptism in the Spirit, a Baptism of incorporation into the Church. No, these are all effects of ONE Baptism (see below). All of these happen simultaneously. Just as you have ONE Lord and ONE Faith, there is only ONE Baptism (Eph 4:5) and that ONE BAPTISM includes Water (“Water” signifies both God the Father and physical Water), the Spirit and the Blood (“blood” signifies Jesus Christ) and the three are ONE (1 John 5:8).
CAUSES
Council of Trent (Denz 799, DS 1528)
Causes of The Sacrament of Baptism:
Effecient Cause - Mercy of God who washes and sanctifies (1 Cor 6:11)
Meritorious Cause - Jesus Christ
*Instrumental Cause - Baptism (with water)
Formal Cause - Justice of God (sanctifying grace)
Final Cause - Eternal Life (Glory of God)
* Notice: The Instrumental Cause doesn’t take away from or eliminate the other causes. They are ALL simultaneously present at Water Baptism.
Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma by Dr. Ludwig Ott
Causes of the Sacrament of Baptism:
Effecient Cause - Mercy of God
Meritorious Cause - Jesus Christ
Instrumental Cause - Baptism = Water and Word (Eph 5:26) (Word = Invoking the Name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost)(Matt 28:19)
Formal Cause - Sanctifying Grace (Taking away of sin and the infusion of Sanctifying Grace)
Final Cause - Eternal Life and the Glory of God
EFFECTS
Aquinas (STh., III q.69, STh., III q.63 a.1)
Effects of the Sacrament of Baptism:
Baptized into His death (Rom 6:3-4)
Dead to sin but alive to God (Rom 6:11)
Receiving grace and virtues (John 1:16)
Man is incorporated into Christ (Gal 2:20, Gal 3:27)
Gates of Heaven are opened (Luke 3:21)
Seal or indelible mark (2 Cor 1:21-22)
Catechism of the Catholic Church
Effects of the Sacrament of Baptism:
Purification (Acts 2:38)(CCC 1262,1263)
New Birth (John 3:5)(CCC 1262,1265)
Incorporation into the church (1 Cor 12:13, 1 Pet 2:5) (CCC 1267,1268)
Sealed with an indelible mark (Eph 4:30, Eph 1:13-14, 2 Cor 1:21-22)(CCC 1274)
Summary (CCC 1279, 1280)
I wanted to answer one possible objection. If someone were to critique my last post (#49), they would probably make the argument that Rom 6:3-4 doesn’t mention “Water”. It mentions Baptism but not water. The argument would be that, well, Baptism doesn’t necessarily mean Baptism with “Water” because Rom 6:3-4 says we are “Baptized in His death”.
The Short Answer
Matt 3:16 And Jesus being baptized, forthwith came out of the water: and lo, the heavens were opened to him: and he saw the Spirit of God descending as a dove, and coming upon him.
Matt 3:16 tells the whole story. At The Baptism of Jesus three things were present: The Water, The Word (Jesus Christ) and the Spirit. Also, the “Heavens were opened”. All three of these define Baptism. You cannot go by the “definition” or the “greek term” Baptism alone because all it means is a “physical washing”. The “term” Baptism defines the OT Types (1 Cor 10:2,11). You must now go by the NT fulfillment of the definition of Baptism which includes the Water (the physical washing), but also the Word and the Spirit (Matt 3:16, Matt 28:19). Baptism became a sacrament (bestowed Grace) when Christ was Baptized in the Jordan (Matt 3:13,16).
The Long Answer
We need both 3:16’s:
John 3:16 and Matt 3:16
(Believe and Baptism)
Baptism of Jesus = Matt 3:16
Matt 3:16 And Jesus being baptized, forthwith came out of the water: and lo, the heavens were opened to him: and he saw the Spirit of God descending as a dove, and coming upon him.
The Greek word for “Baptism” in Matt 3:16 = the Greek word for “Baptism” in Rom 6:3-4. (Strong’s #907)
The Greek word for “Water” in Matt 3:16 = the Greek word for “Water” in Eph 5:26 (Laver of Water)(Strong’s #5204)
The Greek word for “Water” in Matt 3:16 = the Greek word for “Water” in John 19:34 (Strong’s #5204)
Eph 5:26 Laver (washing) of Water
Titus 3:5 Laver (washing) of Regeneration
(These verses show that Baptism with Water produces Regeneration)
The same Greek word (Strong’s #907) for baptism used in Matt 3:16 is used in Gal 3:27, Mark 10:38, Mark 16:16, Acts 2:38, Acts 10:47-48, Acts 22:16, Rom 6:3, Gal 3:27 (Gal 3:27 is not far from Gal 2:20). This ties Water Baptism (Matt 3:16) to Rom 6:3-4. Also, “Water” used in Matt 3:16 is the same “Water” used in Eph 5:26 (Laver of Water)(Strong’s #5204) and it is also the same “Water” that flowed from Christ’s side (John 19:34). It was REAL water and this Water had “Power” because it is the same Water that flowed from Christ’s side while on the cross.
Baptism always includes Water
Baptism always includes water. It’s true that Rom 6:3-4 doesn’t mention “Water” but it doesn’t have to because, by definition, Baptism includes Water. Baptism means to “Wash” (Strong’s #907). If You say Baptism doesn’t always include water it is probably because you are not thinking about all the “Causes” of Baptism (see below). Christ made Baptism a Sacrament when He plunged into the Jordan (Matt 3:16) according to Aquinas (STh., III q.39 a.1). At that point, Baptism became more than just a term (a physical washing). Baptism became a Sacrament which means it became an instrument of grace . All the “Causes” of Baptism were present when Christ was baptized: The Water, the Word and the Spirit (1 John 5:7-8) and the “Heavens were opened” (Matt 3:16) which is an “Effect” of Baptism. What this means is that by the instrument of “Water” (Baptism), these things happened. This means these things didn’t happen separate from the “Water”. ALL of these elements combined, define the Sacrament of Baptism. Rom 6:3-4 describes the “Meritorious Cause” of Baptism (Trent) which is Jesus Christ who, by His death (Rom 6:3-4, John 19:34) and Resurrection (Rom 6:4, Matt 27:53), opened the gates of heaven (Mark 16:19, Acts 1:2). The “Instrumental Cause” of Baptism is the “Water and the Word” (Eph 5:26).
I don’t think you would call the Baptism of Jesus just an ordinance when you consider the “heavens were opened” and the “spirit came down” (Matt 3:16). The separation of Water from the Spirit is THE MISTAKE. You could say we are immersed in the Spirit or immersed in Christ but these are “Causes” and “Effects” of the instrument of Water Baptism. You cannot separate immersion of the Spirit or the immersion of Christ from the Water (1 John 5:8, Eph 4:5) because Christ showed us that Water Baptism is the way (Matt 3:16).
Many denominations Baptize two of more times even though scripture teaches against it (Eph 4:5). They say they have been “Baptized into Christ” or “Immersed in the Spirit” or whatever, but THEN Baptize with Water as an Ordinance. That’s because they separate the Water from the Spirit in error. We don’t say there is a Baptism of Water (Purification), a Baptism into Christ’s death, a Baptism into Christ’s resurrection, a Baptism in the Spirit, a Baptism of incorporation into the Church. No, these are all effects of ONE Baptism (see below). All of these happen simultaneously. Just as you have ONE Lord and ONE Faith, there is only ONE Baptism (Eph 4:5) and that ONE BAPTISM includes Water (“Water” signifies both God the Father and physical Water), the Spirit and the Blood (“blood” signifies Jesus Christ) and the three are ONE (1 John 5:8).
CAUSES
Council of Trent (Denz 799, DS 1528)
Causes of The Sacrament of Baptism:
Effecient Cause - Mercy of God who washes and sanctifies (1 Cor 6:11)
Meritorious Cause - Jesus Christ
*Instrumental Cause - Baptism (with water)
Formal Cause - Justice of God (sanctifying grace)
Final Cause - Eternal Life (Glory of God)
* Notice: The Instrumental Cause doesn’t take away from or eliminate the other causes. They are ALL simultaneously present at Water Baptism.
Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma by Dr. Ludwig Ott
Causes of the Sacrament of Baptism:
Effecient Cause - Mercy of God
Meritorious Cause - Jesus Christ
Instrumental Cause - Baptism = Water and Word (Eph 5:26) (Word = Invoking the Name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost)(Matt 28:19)
Formal Cause - Sanctifying Grace (Taking away of sin and the infusion of Sanctifying Grace)
Final Cause - Eternal Life and the Glory of God
EFFECTS
Aquinas (STh., III q.69, STh., III q.63 a.1)
Effects of the Sacrament of Baptism:
Baptized into His death (Rom 6:3-4)
Dead to sin but alive to God (Rom 6:11)
Receiving grace and virtues (John 1:16)
Man is incorporated into Christ (Gal 2:20, Gal 3:27)
Gates of Heaven are opened (Luke 3:21)
Seal or indelible mark (2 Cor 1:21-22)
Catechism of the Catholic Church
Effects of the Sacrament of Baptism:
Purification (Acts 2:38)(CCC 1262,1263)
New Birth (John 3:5)(CCC 1262,1265)
Incorporation into the church (1 Cor 12:13, 1 Pet 2:5) (CCC 1267,1268)
Sealed with an indelible mark (Eph 4:30, Eph 1:13-14, 2 Cor 1:21-22)(CCC 1274)
Summary (CCC 1279, 1280)
37818
Well-Known Member
Augustine, Enchiridion 42
420ad
“And this is the meaning of the great sacrament of baptism which is solemnized among us, that all who attain to this grace should die to sin, as He is said to have died to sin, because He died in the flesh, which is the likeness of sin; and rising from the font regenerate, as He arose alive from the grave, should begin a new life in the Spirit, whatever may be the age of the body?”
Augustine, On the Merits and Forgiveness of Sins 2.27.43
412ad
“But the sacrament of baptism is undoubtedly the sacrament of regeneration:….“Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God”(John 3:3). Even an infant, therefore, must be imbued with the sacrament of regeneration, lest without it his would be an unhappy exit out of this life; and this baptism is not administered except for the remission of sins.”
37818
Well-Known Member
The New Testament teaching of believer's immersion is first century.
John 3:3 has nothing to do with water immersion aka baptism.
OK. St. Augustine doesn’t mean anything to you so neither will any of the other early church fathers.
Here’s my questions:
Do you believe in the Baptism of the Holy Ghost?
Do you believe Baptism is an Ordinance?
37818
Well-Known Member
Matthew 3:11, Acts of the Apostles 1:8, Romans 8:16. Yes. I know Him.
Water immersion as a symbol. Yes.
Do you believe in the Baptism of the Holy Ghost?
Then you are baptizing twice. Scripture teaches against it (Eph 4:5).
37818
Well-Known Member
Water immersion is the one immersion, in Ephesians 4:5.
But there are different types of immersions in the singular teaching, Hebrews 6:2. Three types are named in Luke 3:16-17.
No. Scripture calls it Baptism of the Holy Ghost: Acts 2:38, Acts 11:16, Matt 3:11, Mark1:8, Luke 3:16, Acts 1:5 and you said baptism was an immersion so were you immersed in water or the Holy Ghost? Heb 6:2 speaks about the “types” of baptisms (1 John 5:8) but says the “three are one”. What does it mean in 1 John 5:8 when it says the “three are one”? Luke 3:16 was John’s baptism. It was a preparation. He said so (Matt 3:3). John even said that Jesus would baptize with the Holy Ghost and Fire (Luke 3:16). Luke 3:21-22 was Jesus’ baptism and the Holy Ghost came down and the heaven’s were opened. This baptism was with water (Matt 3:16).