Ahem
Romans 4:17
Romans 8:11
Eph 2:1
all state that quickening comes from God not baptism
Romans 4:17
Romans 8:11
Eph 2:1
all state that quickening comes from God not baptism
-
Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.
Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!
Acts 10 - Cornelius - Question
- Thread starter LaGrange
- Start date
- Status
Eph 2:8-9 says faith comes from God. It equates salvation to faith
unprofitable
Active Member
LeGrange,
Thank you for your response.
Cornelius did know Christ in the person of his judgments that were performed in the old covenant. The majority in Israel did not. John 1:11 says "He came unto his own (covenant people) and his own received him not. They did not recognize him because his works were contrary to what they thought made them righteous. Because they did believe his judgments/works were contrary to what they thought Moses was teaching they rejected him. Moses described Messiah to them so they could receive him. Deuteronomy 18:18 says, "I will raise them up a Prophet from among (from the midst) their brethren, like unto thee, and will put my words in his mouth, and he shall speak unto them all that I command him. 19, And it shall come to pay that whosoever (John 3:16) will not hearken unto my words, which he shall speak in my name, I will require it of him. (shall perish).
How did Moses speak of a Christ he did not know? Christ said he did. John 5:46 For had ye believed Moses ye would have believed me for HE WROTE OF ME. Moses wrote of Christ in Christ's name by the spirit of Christ in him. Concerning the prophets, 1 Peter 1:11 says, "Searching what, or what manner of time, the Spirit of Christ WHICH WAS IN THEM did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ and the glory that should follow. Cornelius knew this Christ because he believed the message that Moses had written of him and the testimony of the prophets. Cornelius had received/believed those things written of Christ. The New Covenant does not teach a different Christ that that spoken of in the Old. Cornelius needed to hear/know that the Christ promised in the old covenant had come and brought in the New Covenant Kingdom of God with its statutes, judgments and precepts. The prophets. and those with Christ in them under the old covenant, saw the true teachings and had been saved from the sins of the vain imaginations of men, that men, by the work of their own hands, had perverted the righteous teaching and their judgments.
The example in Luke where we see the two men who went up to the temple to pray is an example of the above. The Pharisee thought he was justified by the works of the Law when in fact he had perverted them. The publican, who smote himself on the breast and said, "Lord have mercy on me a sinner" saw the perversion of which he had participated and repented. How could the publican ask for mercy from a Christ that had not yet been crucified. How could be he justified by someone he did not already know. Job 33:27 says, "He looketh upon men, and if any say, I have perverted that which was right, and it profiteth me not, 28. He will deliver his soul from going into the pit, and his life shall see the light." The publican confessed and repented not only of the sins of the flesh but wrong doctrine where he had perverted the name of Christ. By repenting of wrong doctrine he also repented of the sins of his fathers. How could the publican do this without the Spirit of Christ in him? The same is true of Cornelius.
As far as receiving the spirit, I will use a verse frequently quoted by Kyredneck. John 3:8 says, "The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but cannot tell whence it cometh, and wither it goeth, so is everyone that is born of the spirit.
I will address your other points as soon as possible. I have a prior commitment,
Thank you for your response.
Cornelius did know Christ in the person of his judgments that were performed in the old covenant. The majority in Israel did not. John 1:11 says "He came unto his own (covenant people) and his own received him not. They did not recognize him because his works were contrary to what they thought made them righteous. Because they did believe his judgments/works were contrary to what they thought Moses was teaching they rejected him. Moses described Messiah to them so they could receive him. Deuteronomy 18:18 says, "I will raise them up a Prophet from among (from the midst) their brethren, like unto thee, and will put my words in his mouth, and he shall speak unto them all that I command him. 19, And it shall come to pay that whosoever (John 3:16) will not hearken unto my words, which he shall speak in my name, I will require it of him. (shall perish).
How did Moses speak of a Christ he did not know? Christ said he did. John 5:46 For had ye believed Moses ye would have believed me for HE WROTE OF ME. Moses wrote of Christ in Christ's name by the spirit of Christ in him. Concerning the prophets, 1 Peter 1:11 says, "Searching what, or what manner of time, the Spirit of Christ WHICH WAS IN THEM did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ and the glory that should follow. Cornelius knew this Christ because he believed the message that Moses had written of him and the testimony of the prophets. Cornelius had received/believed those things written of Christ. The New Covenant does not teach a different Christ that that spoken of in the Old. Cornelius needed to hear/know that the Christ promised in the old covenant had come and brought in the New Covenant Kingdom of God with its statutes, judgments and precepts. The prophets. and those with Christ in them under the old covenant, saw the true teachings and had been saved from the sins of the vain imaginations of men, that men, by the work of their own hands, had perverted the righteous teaching and their judgments.
The example in Luke where we see the two men who went up to the temple to pray is an example of the above. The Pharisee thought he was justified by the works of the Law when in fact he had perverted them. The publican, who smote himself on the breast and said, "Lord have mercy on me a sinner" saw the perversion of which he had participated and repented. How could the publican ask for mercy from a Christ that had not yet been crucified. How could be he justified by someone he did not already know. Job 33:27 says, "He looketh upon men, and if any say, I have perverted that which was right, and it profiteth me not, 28. He will deliver his soul from going into the pit, and his life shall see the light." The publican confessed and repented not only of the sins of the flesh but wrong doctrine where he had perverted the name of Christ. By repenting of wrong doctrine he also repented of the sins of his fathers. How could the publican do this without the Spirit of Christ in him? The same is true of Cornelius.
As far as receiving the spirit, I will use a verse frequently quoted by Kyredneck. John 3:8 says, "The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but cannot tell whence it cometh, and wither it goeth, so is everyone that is born of the spirit.
I will address your other points as soon as possible. I have a prior commitment,
RighteousnessTemperance&
Well-Known Member
The phrase “saving faith” is yours, not mine. However, if you wish to contend, try arguing with Paul: “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—not by works, so that no one can boast,” Eph 2: 8-9.
I’m saying what 1 Corinthians 12:13 says, that the Holy Spirit immersed me into the Body of Christ, not man. 1 Corinthians 6:17. Work of the Holy Spirit, not of a man.
I received water baptism because I was saved (regenerated), not to get saved.
The Church of Christ teaches error.
37818
Well-Known Member
Respectfully Ephesians 2:8-9 says no such thing about faith coming from God. But the works that should follow faith does come from God, Ephesians 2:10, ". . . For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them. . . ."
unprofitable
Active Member
LaGrange,
John 17:3 says, "And this is eternal life, that they might know thee, the only TRUE God and (thru) Jesus Christ whom thou has sent."
Jeremiah 2:32 ...yet my people have forgotten me days without number.
Jeremiah 11:13 For according to the number of thy cities were thy gods, O Judah, and according to the number of thy streets have ye set up altars to that shameful thing, even altars to burn incense unto Baal.
This is the condition of so-called Christianity today. The false idol being called Christ and being seen and prayed to in many assemblies is an abomination to God. (Exo 20:4) The doctrines of men are preached continually and are regularly seen here on this forum.
The teaching that all you need to know is Christ was born of a virgin, lived a sinless life, crucified by sinner, rose again the third day, and shed his blood for you whereby you might be saved is far from the full knowledge of the only true God. It is just scratching the surface. It is the beginning of the milk but not the meat.
Accepting Christ as Lord and Saviour can only be done by being brought into subjection to him in a scriptural body of Christ where the name (a definite conspicuous position indicating power, authority, honor, and character) is rightly taught. Ephesians 5:25. He is the head of the church and the saviour of the body. His position and action in this verse is part of the name. Ps 9:16 says "The Lord is known (His Name) by the judgment which he executeth." Coming to the knowledge of the truth in Christ is as you say, an all the time endeavor, not a singlair confession.
You say that Cornelius could not have come to Christ before Peter preached Christ to him. Christ says in Psalms 40:7 and Hebrews 10:7, "I come in the volume of the book." Cornelius had the book as the old testament as a witness to him of the name of Christ and the Father. " He only needed to know there was now a new covenant which he must enter into by baptism where the true God was going to be revealed to the church (Eph 3:10), a new kingdom covenant nation, in the person/name of Christ. (John 14:9)
The ark of Noah and the ark of the covenant are representative of Christ.
2 Peter 2:13 speaks of those who turn back under the false teachings perverted in the old testament that did not represent the oracles of the only true God. The Lord is not pleased by those that turn back as represented by the children of Israel who wanted to go back into Egypt. They are also represented in the teachings of Matt 13 by the seed that falls by the wayside, upon stony ground and those falling among thorns. They are in the midst of the congregation but the life of Christ is and has never been in them. They have never had his life and knowledge of his true ways and never lose something they never had.
I agree we must remain in Christ thru his body. 1 John 3:14 says, "We know we have passed from death unto life because we love the brethren (the body of Christ)."
John 17:3 says, "And this is eternal life, that they might know thee, the only TRUE God and (thru) Jesus Christ whom thou has sent."
Jeremiah 2:32 ...yet my people have forgotten me days without number.
Jeremiah 11:13 For according to the number of thy cities were thy gods, O Judah, and according to the number of thy streets have ye set up altars to that shameful thing, even altars to burn incense unto Baal.
This is the condition of so-called Christianity today. The false idol being called Christ and being seen and prayed to in many assemblies is an abomination to God. (Exo 20:4) The doctrines of men are preached continually and are regularly seen here on this forum.
The teaching that all you need to know is Christ was born of a virgin, lived a sinless life, crucified by sinner, rose again the third day, and shed his blood for you whereby you might be saved is far from the full knowledge of the only true God. It is just scratching the surface. It is the beginning of the milk but not the meat.
Accepting Christ as Lord and Saviour can only be done by being brought into subjection to him in a scriptural body of Christ where the name (a definite conspicuous position indicating power, authority, honor, and character) is rightly taught. Ephesians 5:25. He is the head of the church and the saviour of the body. His position and action in this verse is part of the name. Ps 9:16 says "The Lord is known (His Name) by the judgment which he executeth." Coming to the knowledge of the truth in Christ is as you say, an all the time endeavor, not a singlair confession.
You say that Cornelius could not have come to Christ before Peter preached Christ to him. Christ says in Psalms 40:7 and Hebrews 10:7, "I come in the volume of the book." Cornelius had the book as the old testament as a witness to him of the name of Christ and the Father. " He only needed to know there was now a new covenant which he must enter into by baptism where the true God was going to be revealed to the church (Eph 3:10), a new kingdom covenant nation, in the person/name of Christ. (John 14:9)
The ark of Noah and the ark of the covenant are representative of Christ.
2 Peter 2:13 speaks of those who turn back under the false teachings perverted in the old testament that did not represent the oracles of the only true God. The Lord is not pleased by those that turn back as represented by the children of Israel who wanted to go back into Egypt. They are also represented in the teachings of Matt 13 by the seed that falls by the wayside, upon stony ground and those falling among thorns. They are in the midst of the congregation but the life of Christ is and has never been in them. They have never had his life and knowledge of his true ways and never lose something they never had.
I agree we must remain in Christ thru his body. 1 John 3:14 says, "We know we have passed from death unto life because we love the brethren (the body of Christ)."
unprofitable
Active Member
Phillipians 1:29 For unto you IT IS GIVEN in the behalf of Christ not only to BELIEVE ON HIM, but also to suffer for his sake.
Who gave what to whom?
37818
Well-Known Member
It is the "you" who is given in the behalf of Christ.
unprofitable
Active Member
Unto you (the body of Christ at Phillipi) it is given not only to believe on him in his behalf (for his sake). Why is it given for his sake? That he might be glorified.
The context is faith given for the sake of Christ that the church at Phillipi might believe and thus glorify Christ. Faith given that the body might be edified by the knowledge of Christ.
It (faith as a gift) is given unto you, not you, the church at Phillipi, as the gift being given,
For unto you, the church at Phillipi, the object or receiver of the gift of faith.
Anything less does violence to the scriptures.,
The context is faith given for the sake of Christ that the church at Phillipi might believe and thus glorify Christ. Faith given that the body might be edified by the knowledge of Christ.
It (faith as a gift) is given unto you, not you, the church at Phillipi, as the gift being given,
For unto you, the church at Phillipi, the object or receiver of the gift of faith.
Anything less does violence to the scriptures.,
37818
Well-Known Member
37818
Well-Known Member
@unprofitable,
Those who agree with your presupposition will agree with your interpretation. Those who do not will not agree.
There are assists in translation words.
". . . For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake; . . ."
Extra words.
Those who agree with your presupposition will agree with your interpretation. Those who do not will not agree.
There are assists in translation words.
". . . For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake; . . ."
Extra words.
Last edited:
unprofitable
Active Member
Thank you for your translation. Even with the words removed, it does not change the meaning. The multitude of translations in Bible Gateway support and agree with the KJV.
RighteousnessTemperance&
Well-Known Member
BTW
The strawman arguments you made here detract from the issue. I did not use the phrases you argued against, namely “faith alone” and “saving faith.”
If you don’t understand this point, perhaps you would if someone were to argue that there are no passages with the phrases “baptism alone” or “saving baptism.”
My Comment: Faith and believing are not enough. I think what I’m going to need to do is a thread on justification. This is hard to explain in a couple of paragraphs. Rom 12 is about the moral obligations of christians. This is after our intitial justification (Baptism). Faith has to all be done in “Charity” (Rom 12:10) which means it has to be done in “Sanctifying Grace” (1 Cor 13). At this point (after justification or regeneration), we are in God’s Grace and then we are to exercise our faith (the virtue of Faith) and other gifts in helping our fellow man. This is exercised through such Gifts as prophecy, ministering, teaching, exhorting, etc. Rom 12:4 sounds like 1 Cor 12:12 and Rom 12:10 sounds like 1 Cor 13 regarding Charity. This is important because 1 Cor 12 are the gratuitous Gifts and 1 Cor 13 is the permanent grace, “Charity” which is poured into our hearts (Rom 5:5). So it is NOT saying Faith Alone. So Justification (Charity = regeneration = sanctifying grace) is necessary for the Gifts to flourish and for us to grow in sanctity. This ongoing sanctification/Justification is also how we persevere. Exercising Faith, in sanctifying grace, (the infused virtue of Faith) and using any of the other Gifts God gives us to help us and others grow in our Christian faith, along with a continual confessing and repenting of sin, is Saving Faith.
My Comment: Baptism is an instrument of God’s grace. God simply commanded it (Matt 28:19) so quickenening comes from God through Baptism.
Look at Rom 6:3-4 “For we are buried together with him by baptism into death: that, as Christ is risen from the dead by the glory of the Father, so we also may walk in newness of life.” This “newness of life” describes baptism.
Col 2:13 “Buried with him in baptism: in whom also you are risen again by the faith of the operation of God who hath raised him up from the dead. 13 And you, when you were dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, he hath quickened together with him, forgiving you all offences:”
Eph 2:5 “Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together in Christ (by whose grace you are saved).” This is baptism and is a cross reference to Col 2:13.
My Comment: Faith does come from God. No doubt. Faith is necessary for salvation and is very, very important but you are not saved by it alone. It is a gratuitous grace (1 Cor 12:9). This means it’s a transient grace and we formerly call it Actual Grace. For justification you need a permanent grace. Just a few verses before in Eph 2:5 is Baptism. This is where our initial justification comes from and where you receive permanent grace, which we formerly call habitual grace or sanctifying grace. This means that Faith is required before justification, during justification and after justification and it is necessary but it does not cause or produce justification. Matter of fact, Faith and Works combined do not cause or produce our initial justification. Sanctifying Grace only comes through the instruments of the seven sacraments and all seven derive their power from the cross. Christ does it alone. You can increase sanctifying grace while in sanctifying grace through Faith and Works (2 Pet 3:18). After Baptism, there is an ongoing Justification/Sanctification process until our death. This is Perseverance. This is because we are judged at death (particular judgement). Faith is present before justification. Faith is present during justification. Faith and Works are present after justification.
Eph 2:8-10 For by grace you are saved through faith: and that not of yourselves, for it is the gift of God. 9 Not of works, that no man may glory. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus in good works, which God hath prepared that we should walk in them.
A Simple Breakdown of Eph 2:8-10
through Faith = using Faith which Leads to the permanent grace of initial justification = Baptism
It is a gift of God = a gratuitous gift (explained above)
Not of works = contrasting the OT view of keeping the Law without Christ (you can keep the moral law with Christ or In Christ)
In Christ Jesus = in His Sanctifying Grace
Good Works = God prepared us (preparatory graces) to do these Works to persevere, that is, to obtain or reach Glory.
Prepared that we should walk in them = we receive the graces so we are able to do the Good Works we were created to do
- Status