Acts 13:48 and Election

[David Lamb]

Double negative there BF. So I have said something but you just do not like what I said.

I think many English speakers say or write things such as, "You haven't said nothing," when they mean "You haven't said anything." I understood Hazelelponi to mean, "You haven't said anything."

 

[Silverhair]

I think many English speakers say or write things such as, "You haven't said nothing," when they mean "You haven't said anything." I understood Hazelelponi to mean, "You haven't said anything."

Be that as it may, BF just ignores everything that does not fit with his theology.

It was not me but these various scholars that he is in disagreement with. Some of whom are of the calvinist view.

But here is another scholar that I am sure he will disagree with also.

“And as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.” Luke adds a sentence in which he uses the passive voice were ordained. The implication is that God is the agent, for only he grants eternal life (Mat_25:46; Joh_10:28; Joh_17:2). In the Greek, the form were ordained is a passive participle in the perfect tense. The perfect denotes action that took place in the past but is relevant for the present. In the past, God predestined the salvation of the Gentiles. In many places in the Old Testament Scriptures God reveals that the blessing of salvation is for the Gentiles also (e.g., Gen_12:1-3; Isa_42:6; Isa_49:6). When they in faith accept Christ, he grants them the gift of eternal life.

When the Gentiles in Pisidian Antioch put their faith in Jesus Christ, they appropriate eternal life for themselves. The text reveals the proverbial two sides of the same coin: God's electing love and man's believing response (compare Php_2:12-13). Even though this text features the main verb to believe, it also teaches the doctrine of divine election (refer to Rom_8:29-30). Note that Luke says “[The Gentiles] were ordained to eternal life.” He does not say that they were ordained to believe. “What concerns him is that eternal life is not only received by faith, but is essentially the plan of God.” Baker's New Testament Commentary

 

[Martin Marprelate]

I was saved just like everyone else, by grace through faith.
Why do you and other Calvinists keep trotting out those silly comments "God saved you because of your superior wisdom and intelligence in selecting Christ" But you are right in a way. I can look back and say I was smart enough to actually trust what the bible says whereas those that reject that truth were not to smart were they.

Well, that's why we trot the comments out; because they're not silly; they're true. You really believe that you are smarter than the average bear, and that's why God saved you. But God asks you, 'What do you have that you did not receive? And if you did receive it, why do you boast as if you had not received it?' (1 Cor. 4:7). The truth is that every single thing you have, you have from God and it is He who opened your heart to receive the Gospel into your heart.

But Calvinists think God just reached down and picked you out and saved you then afterward gave you faith to believe.

No. That's what Hyper-Calvinists believe. God picked you out in eternity, reached down in time and gave you faith to believe, and then saved you.

Odd that you would say that. Did you never read Ephesians 1:13 or Romans 10:14. You should read John 3:14-18. But I am sure you have read this one Act of the Apostles 16:30-31.
Note it is not God that is doing this but the man is being told to do this.

Yes. 'Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved.' Why do you suppose that I would have a problem with that? I preach it regularly. Nor do I have a problem with the other verses you referenced without explaining why.

Pro 3:5 Trust in the LORD with all your heart, And lean not on your own understanding;
Pro 3:6 In all your ways acknowledge Him, And He shall direct your paths.
Pro 3:7 Do not be wise in your own eyes; Fear the LORD and depart from evil.

But if you were already elected before creation what was the need for that?

Because 'It pleased God, through the foolishness of the message preached, to save those who believe' (1 Cor. 1:21). God could have saved people by having them stand on their heads and reciting the alphabet backwards, but He didn't. He will have His Gospel preached all through the world, and He will save His people as they believe. You remind me somewhat of Dr. Spock from Star Trek. "Why Captain; this is illogical!" But the foolishness of God is wiser than men.' I think it would do you good to meditate on Psalm 115:3 for a while, and humble yourself before it.

Now for those that God foreknew would freely believe in Him through the gospel message those words actually have meaning.
You asked "why the cross" well just as the text says God justified those that believe the gospel message of Christ. What did you think they meant?

No, you asked me, why the cross, and the cross is not to justify us, but to justify God when He justifies us. On the cross the Lord Jesus paid the due penalty for our sins in full, so that the justice of God was satisfied in respect of His people. He now looks upon them, judicially, as if they had never sinned, and He justifies them (declares them righteous) when they believe (as Father, of course, He knows that we still sin and He lovingly chastises us for it (Hebrews 12:5-11).

No one is saved before he repents and believes in Christ, on that we can agree.

But above you were saying (wrongly) that I didn't agree

But since no one can repent or believe in Christ prior to being born and thus be one of the elect how do you, as a Calvinist, claim to have been elected prior to creation? Just as Ephesians tells us we are chosen in Him, and the only way to be in Him and one of the elect is to be in Him through faith. Which is just what you showed when you quote from Romans 2:25-26 and Ephesians 2:1-9

You are confusing election and salvation. We were elected in eternity (Eph. 1:4; 2 Thes. 2:13), but we were not saved until we were justified, which happened when we trusted in Christ for salvation. Our salvation was certain, but had not yet happened. BTW, our warrant for salvation is not that we think we're elect. No one can know that until he has trusted in Christ. Our warrant for salvation is that we are sinners, and Christ died for such. So we trust in Him and in His blood shed for sinners on the cross. And then we understand (or should!) that God has loved us from everlasting (Jer. 31:3), and sent Christ to redeem us (John 6:39).

 

[Martin Marprelate]

But here is another scholar that I am sure he will disagree with also.

“And as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.” Luke adds a sentence in which he uses the passive voice were ordained. The implication is that God is the agent, for only he grants eternal life (Mat_25:46; Joh_10:28; Joh_17:2). In the Greek, the form were ordained is a passive participle in the perfect tense. The perfect denotes action that took place in the past but is relevant for the present. In the past, God predestined the salvation of the Gentiles. In many places in the Old Testament Scriptures God reveals that the blessing of salvation is for the Gentiles also (e.g., Gen_12:1-3; Isa_42:6; Isa_49:6). When they in faith accept Christ, he grants them the gift of eternal life.

When the Gentiles in Pisidian Antioch put their faith in Jesus Christ, they appropriate eternal life for themselves. The text reveals the proverbial two sides of the same coin: God's electing love and man's believing response (compare Php_2:12-13). Even though this text features the main verb to believe, it also teaches the doctrine of divine election (refer to Rom_8:29-30). Note that Luke says “[The Gentiles] were ordained to eternal life.” He does not say that they were ordained to believe. “What concerns him is that eternal life is not only received by faith, but is essentially the plan of God.” Baker's New Testament Commentary

May I suggest that you read that extract through again carefully? It's a bit convoluted, but I don't think it teaches what you think.

 

[Silverhair]

May I suggest that you read that extract through again carefully? It's a bit convoluted, but I don't think it teaches what you think.

I would suggest that you read it again as it is clear that you have missed what it says. It is only convoluted in your mind.

In the past, God predestined the salvation of the Gentiles.
When they in faith accept Christ, he grants them the gift of eternal life.
When the Gentiles in Pisidian Antioch put their faith in Jesus Christ, they appropriate eternal life for themselves.
[The Gentiles] were ordained to eternal life.”
He does not say that they were ordained to believe.
“What concerns him is that eternal life is not only received by faith, but is essentially the plan of God.”

Perhaps that will make it easier for you to understand.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

I would suggest that you read it again as it is clear that you have missed what it says. It is only convoluted in your mind.

Well, I've read it through again, and it's even more convoluted than I had thought! It seems as if Baker NT Commentary is trying to please both Calvinists and Arminians, and as a result, whoever wrote this part is balancing on an exegetical tight rope

In the past, God predestined the salvation of the Gentiles.

That's not what exactly what the text says, is it? Verse 47 says that Christ is set as a light for the Gentiles. As we know, some Gentiles believe and some don't.

When they in faith accept Christ, he grants them the gift of eternal life.

When who in faith accept Christ? What does the text say? 'And as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed.' When they - the Gentiles appointed to eternal life believed, they received what they had been appointed to receive.

When the Gentiles in Pisidian Antioch put their faith in Jesus Christ, they appropriate eternal life for themselves.

Only those Gentiles who were appointed to eternal life believed. You cannot make the text read 'And those who believed were appointed for eternal life,' which is what you are trying to do. The Greek construction pointed out by the anonymous Baker Commentary man will not allow it. It is like John 10:26. 'But you do not believe because you are not of My sheep.' You cannot make it read, 'You are not of My sheep because you do not believe.' That would require a wholesale change in the sacred text.

[The Gentiles] were ordained to eternal life.”
He does not say that they were ordained to believe.

This is highly misleading. Nowhere does the Bible text say that the Gentiles were ordained to eternal life. It says that 'as many [of the Gentiles] as had been appointed to eternal life believed.' Not one more, nor one fewer. No one gets eternal life who does not trust in Christ for salvation. Therefore to be appointed to eternal life is to be appointed to believe.

“What concerns him is that eternal life is not only received by faith, but is essentially the plan of God.”

Yep! I can agree with that, although the text puts it the other way around. Eternal life is absolutely the plan of God and is received by faith. These people were appointed to eternal life in eternity and believed in time.

Perhaps that will make it easier for you to understand.

Actually, no. But we got there in the end.

 

[Silverhair]

Well, I've read it through again, and it's even more convoluted than I had thought! It seems as if Baker NT Commentary is trying to please both Calvinists and Arminians, and as a result, whoever wrote this part is balancing on an exegetical tight rope

Since you do not like what the person wrote you have to disparage it. But that is a common response I have seen from calvinists.

That's not what exactly what the text says, is it? Verse 47 says that Christ is set as a light for the Gentiles. As we know, some Gentiles believe and some don't.

Yes He is a light to the gentiles and those that believe are predestined to eternal life. Now you as someone that claims to preach the word of God should understand that. Context will clear up many of your obvious misunderstandings of scripture.

When who in faith accept Christ? What does the text say? 'And as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed.' When they - the Gentiles appointed to eternal life believed, they received what they had been appointed to receive.

Correct, when they believed then they received the gift of eternal life. What does the text say Martin " When the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord" Do you not understand that the gentiles had to believe the words Paul had just spoken
Act 13:38 "Therefore let it be known to you, brethren, that through Him forgiveness of sins is proclaimed to you,
Act 13:39 and through Him everyone who believes is freed from all things, from which you could not be freed through the Law of Moses.
Act 13:46 Paul and Barnabas spoke out boldly and said, "It was necessary that the word of God be spoken to you first; since you repudiate it and judge yourselves unworthy of eternal life, behold, we are turning to the Gentiles.
Act 13:48 When the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord; and as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed

The Jews rejected the message and were lost the gentiles believed the message and were saved.

Only those Gentiles who were appointed to eternal life believed. You cannot make the text read 'And those who believed were appointed for eternal life,' which is what you are trying to do. The Greek construction pointed out by the anonymous Baker Commentary man will not allow it. It is like John 10:26. 'But you do not believe because you are not of My sheep.' You cannot make it read, 'You are not of My sheep because you do not believe.' That would require a wholesale change in the sacred text.

Here is that anonymous Baker Commentary man
Simon J. Kistemaker (October 21, 1930 – September 23, 2017) was a New Testament scholar. He served as Professor of New Testament at Reformed Theological Seminary. Kistemaker studied at Calvin College and Calvin Theological Seminary before obtaining a Th.D. from the Free University in Amsterdam. He served a term as president of the Evangelical Theological Society, and completed the New Testament Commentary series that was commenced by William Hendriksen. Four of Kistemaker's volumes in this series won the Gold Medallion Evangelical Book of the Year Award.

So this calvinist read the verse in context {Act 13:16-48} and did not read into it a preconceived view as you are doing.

This is highly misleading. Nowhere does the Bible text say that the Gentiles were ordained to eternal life. It says that 'as many [of the Gentiles] as had been appointed to eternal life believed.' Not one more, nor one fewer. No one gets eternal life who does not trust in Christ for salvation. Therefore to be appointed to eternal life is to be appointed to believe.

Look at the contradiction you have in just two sentences.
1] "No one gets eternal life who does not trust in Christ for salvation."
Faith before one is saved

and your next sentence
2] "Therefore to be appointed to eternal life is to be appointed to believe."
Saved before they believe

This should help you get your theology straight
Joh_5:24 – “Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life.”

Joh_6:40 – “And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day.”

Note the order Martin. hear then believe and see then believe.

Yep! I can agree with that, although the text puts it the other way around. Eternal life is absolutely the plan of God and is received by faith. These people were appointed to eternal life in eternity and believed in time.

No one is appointed to eternal live in eternity. By your own view if they were appointed to it then they must have been saved already. So if they were saved already, forgiven of their sins, why was in necessary for Christ to die for their sins?

But lets look at your calvinist view. According to your theology God picked out just a few people to be saved and by doing so He condemned the vast majority of His creation to hell for eternity. Now all you calvinists have a reason to be prideful as you were the special ones. But then again since you really have no way of knowing if you really are part of that group you can only hope you are not just fooling yourselves since by your own theology you have to be given faith so it is not even your own.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

Since you do not like what the person wrote you have to disparage it. But that is a common response I have seen from calvinists.

Since you do not like what I wrote, you have to drop in your usual pathetic snidies. That is not a response I see commonly from Arminians, only from you.

Yes He is a light to the gentiles and those that believe are predestined to eternal life. Now you as someone that claims to preach the word of God should understand that. Context will clear up many of your obvious misunderstandings of scripture.

You still have it back to front. He is a light to the Gentiles, and those who are predestined to eternal life believe. That is what the text says. Why won't you admit it?

Correct, when they believed then they received the gift of eternal life. What does the text say Martin " When the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord" Do you not understand that the gentiles had to believe the words Paul had just spoken
Act 13:38 "Therefore let it be known to you, brethren, that through Him forgiveness of sins is proclaimed to you,
Act 13:39 and through Him everyone who believes is freed from all things, from which you could not be freed through the Law of Moses.
Act 13:46 Paul and Barnabas spoke out boldly and said, "It was necessary that the word of God be spoken to you first; since you repudiate it and judge yourselves unworthy of eternal life, behold, we are turning to the Gentiles.
Act 13:48 When the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord; and as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed

The Jews rejected the message and were lost the gentiles believed the message and were saved.

You aren't reading the text. Acts 13:43. 'Now when the congregation had broken up, many of the Jews and devout proselytes followed Paul and Barnabas....' Some Jews believed, and we may be sure that some Gentiles didn't. Why may we be sure of that? Because only 'as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed.'

Here is that anonymous Baker Commentary man
Simon J. Kistemaker (October 21, 1930 – September 23, 2017) was a New Testament scholar. He served as Professor of New Testament at Reformed Theological Seminary. Kistemaker studied at Calvin College and Calvin Theological Seminary before obtaining a Th.D. from the Free University in Amsterdam. He served a term as president of the Evangelical Theological Society, and completed the New Testament Commentary series that was commenced by William Hendriksen. Four of Kistemaker's volumes in this series won the Gold Medallion Evangelical Book of the Year Award.

So this Calvinist read the verse in context {Act 13:16-48} and did not read into it a preconceived view as you are doing.

He was certainly Reformed in his theology. I have several of his commentaries, though not Acts. However, I was critiquing your version of what he wrote, and I stand by what I wrote.

Look at the contradiction you have in just two sentences.
1] "No one gets eternal life who does not trust in Christ for salvation."
Faith before one is saved

Yes.

and your next sentence
2] "Therefore to be appointed to eternal life is to be appointed to believe."
Saved before they believe

No. That is not what I have written. I don't know where you get it from. Here is what I wrote: "This is highly misleading. Nowhere does the Bible text say that the Gentiles were ordained to eternal life. It says that 'as many [of the Gentiles] as had been appointed to eternal life believed.' Not one more, nor one fewer. No one gets eternal life who does not trust in Christ for salvation. Therefore to be appointed to eternal life is to be appointed to believe." A person is elect before he believes; God must open His heart to believe before he will do so, but no one is saved before he believes.

This should help you get your theology straight
Joh_5:24 – “Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life.”

Joh_6:40 – “And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day.”

Note the order Martin. hear then believe and see then believe.

Amen! You keep quoting Scripture and claiming I don't believe it. Neither of those verses cause me any difficulty whatsoever.

No one is appointed to eternal live in eternity.

Wrong!

By your own view if they were appointed to it then they must have been saved already. So if they were saved already, forgiven of their sins, why was in necessary for Christ to die for their sins?

That is absolutely NOT my view. Why do you keep telling me I believe stuff that I don't? Please stop it.

But lets look at your Calvinist view. According to your theology God picked out just a few people to be saved and by doing so He condemned the vast majority of His creation to hell for eternity.

No. God picked out a 'Great multitude which no one could number....' So how come you are numbering them and finding them 'just a few'?
According to your theology, God doesn't love anyone enough to save him.

Now all you Calvinists have a reason to be prideful as you were the special ones. But then again since you really have no way of knowing if you really are part of that group you can only hope you are not just fooling yourselves since by your own theology you have to be given faith so it is not even your own.

You have already claimed to be a 'special one' since you were smart and brainy enough to believe. Let's look at what the truth is: 'For we ourselves were also once foolish, disobedient, deceived, serving various lusts and pleasures, living in malice and envy, hateful and hating one another. But when the kindness and the love of God our Saviour towards man appeared, not by works of righteousness that we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit' (Titus 3:3-5). God did not leave it up to us to save ourselves; He saved us. No one has any reason to boast or be prideful, including you.
You are right that I was given faith - as were you, whether you like it or not - but everyone who believes can know that he is saved, firstly by Romans 8:16, but also because we know we are sinners and Jesus Christ came into the world to save sinners.

 

[Silverhair]

ince you do not like what I wrote, you have to drop in your usual pathetic snidies. That is not a response I see commonly from Arminians, only from you.

"Since you do not like what the person wrote you have to disparage it. But that is a common response I have seen from calvinists." How is the truth a snide remark Martin?

You still have it back to front. He is a light to the Gentiles, and those who are predestined to eternal life believe. That is what the text says. Why won't you admit it?

Because I actually look art the context which you do not seem to do. "When the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord" They believed or do you think that they were unbelievers when they were "rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord" The context which you seem to ignore shows us they were believers.

You aren't reading the text. Acts 13:43. 'Now when the congregation had broken up, many of the Jews and devout proselytes followed Paul and Barnabas....' Some Jews believed, and we may be sure that some Gentiles didn't. Why may we be sure of that? Because only 'as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed.'

There you go ignoring context again. Those that were rejoicing and glorifying the Lord were believers because they trusted the message Paul had preached. Or do you think they only believed after they were saved?

He was certainly Reformed in his theology. I have several of his commentaries, though not Acts. However, I was critiquing your version of what he wrote, and I stand by what I wrote.

You can stand by what you wrote but you are in disagreement with a number of scholars from both calvinist and arminian views.

Yes.

No. That is not what I have written. I don't know where you get it from. Here is what I wrote: "This is highly misleading. Nowhere does the Bible text say that the Gentiles were ordained to eternal life. It says that 'as many [of the Gentiles] as had been appointed to eternal life believed.' Not one more, nor one fewer. No one gets eternal life who does not trust in Christ for salvation. Therefore to be appointed to eternal life is to be appointed to believe." A person is elect before he believes; God must open His heart to believe before he will do so, but no one is saved before he believes.

Do you not know what you have written?

"No. That is not what I have written. I don't know where you get it from. Here is what I wrote: "This is highly misleading. Nowhere does the Bible text say that the Gentiles were ordained to eternal life. It says that 'as many [of the Gentiles] as had been appointed to eternal life believed.' Not one more, nor one fewer. No one gets eternal life who does not trust in Christ for salvation. Therefore to be appointed to eternal life is to be appointed to believe." A person is elect before he believes; God must open His heart to believe before he will do so, but no one is saved before he believes."

So yes you did write both sentences thus the question, why the contradiction? What do you actually believe?

Wrong!

You say it is wrong but give no clear biblical support for why you think it is wrong.

That is absolutely NOT my view. Why do you keep telling me I believe stuff that I don't? Please stop it.

So what do you actually believe as you have stated both views.

No. God picked out a 'Great multitude which no one could number....' So how come you are numbering them and finding them 'just a few'?
According to your theology, God doesn't love anyone enough to save him.

But all those saved are not calvinists so that shows the hole in your theory. God saves those that believe in Him. None were elected/saved prior to creation.

Joh_5:24 – “Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life.”

Joh_8:24 – “Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for if you do not believe that I am He, you will die in your sins.”

Act_10:43 – “To Him all the prophets witness that, through His name, whoever believes in Him will receive remission of sins.”

You have already claimed to be a 'special one' since you were smart and brainy enough to believe. Let's look at what the truth is: 'For we ourselves were also once foolish, disobedient, deceived, serving various lusts and pleasures, living in malice and envy, hateful and hating one another. But when the kindness and the love of God our Saviour towards man appeared, not by works of righteousness that we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit' (Titus 3:3-5). God did not leave it up to us to save ourselves; He saved us. No one has any reason to boast or be prideful, including you.
You are right that I was given faith - as were you, whether you like it or not - but everyone who believes can know that he is saved, firstly by Romans 8:16, but also because we know we are sinners and Jesus Christ came into the world to save sinners.

Yes I was indeed smart enough to believe the gospel message rather than reject it. Would you rather that everyone was foolish and rejected it?

'For we ourselves were also once foolish, disobedient, deceived, serving various lusts and pleasures, living in malice and envy, hateful and hating one another. But when the kindness and the love of God our Saviour towards man appeared, not by works of righteousness that we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit' (Titus 3:3-5).

And that quote goes right along with what I had said. Like the bible tells us, we are not to be foolish and reject the gospel truths but rather wise in accepting the gift of salvation that is offered through faith in God's son.

Rom 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes,

Eph 1:13 In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise,

Eph 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;

As you can see we do not save ourselves but God saves us because we have trusted in the risen Son of God,Christ Jesus.

I agree we can know we are children of God through faith
Joh_1:12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name,

And the indwelling Holy Spirit confirms this.
Rom_8:16 The Spirit Himself testifies with our spirit that we are children of God,

You need God to give you faith after you are saved and the bible does not support your view so you have to ignore what the bible says so you can hold to your calvinist theology.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

You need God to give you faith after you are saved and the bible does not support your view so you have to ignore what the bible says so you can hold to your Calvinist theology.

You are still misunderstanding and misrepresenting my views, which are mainstream Calvinist views. There is really no point in continuing to discuss if you continue to ascribe to me beliefs that are the reverse of those I hold, despite being asked to stop.

That is absolutely NOT my view. Why do you keep telling me I believe stuff that I don't? Please stop it.

So I'm bringing this exchange to an end. All I will say is this. You cannot make 'And as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed' mean 'And as many as believed were appointed to eternal life.' The Greek language will not allow it. It is like pretending that a horse chestnut is really a chestnut horse!

 

[Silverhair]

You are still misunderstanding and misrepresenting my views, which are mainstream Calvinist views. There is really no point in continuing to discuss if you continue to ascribe to me beliefs that are the reverse of those I hold, despite being asked to stop.

You say you believe what mainstream calvinists believe, that you have to be saved prior to your being given faith, correct.

Your words Martin
"A person is elect before he believes; God must open His heart to believe before he will do so, but no one is saved before he believes"

But as I have shown you via scripture that view is wrong so your view of Act 13:48 is wrong. You should look at clear scripture to explain what is not as clear. You are doing just the opposite.

All these scholars disagree with you

Word Pictures in the New Testament (A. T. Robertson)

Ellicott's Commentary for English Readers

Through the Bible Day by Day (F. B. Meyer)

Daniel Whedon''s Commentary

Simon J. Kistemaker in Baker's New Testament Commentary

Henry Alford's The Greek Testament

Theological Dictionary of the New Testament

Even the context does not support your view Martin but you ignore the context so as to hold to your calvinist view. That is just bad theology and as someone that preaches the word of God you should know this.

So I'm bringing this exchange to an end. All I will say is this. You cannot make 'And as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed' mean 'And as many as believed were appointed to eternal life.' The Greek language will not allow it. It is like pretending that a horse chestnut is really a chestnut horse!

You can stop dealing with the scriptures but that does not alter the truth of the matter. It seems you have built your theology on faulty ground and are content to let it be that way.

 

[David Lamb]

You say you believe what mainstream calvinists believe, that you have to be saved prior to your being given faith, correct.

Hold on a moment. You accuse Martin Marprelate of believing that you you have to be saved prior to being given faith. Then you quote his words (my emphasis) which show that he doesn't believe any such thing:

Your words Martin
"A person is elect before he believes; God must open His heart to believe before he will do so, but no one is saved before he believes"

I see that as saying that Martin believes, as I do, that the bible teaches God's election/choosing as happening "before the foundation of the earth," but that that nobody is actually save before they believe on the Lord Jesus Christ.

 

[DaveXR650]

My opinion:
This passage is not written about individual believers but of a category of believer, inclusionary of gentiles

Luke seems to be emphasizing that gentile believers (as a group) were chosen in a like manner to the way Israel was chosen.

Rob

The thread's kinda derailed but I agree. The context is not about election except to show that Gentiles are included. That's the issue in the context. That's the question. And that's what the complaint was - that Jews were unhappy that Gentiles were believing the gospel. (Acts 13:45). Paul then tells them "since you judge yourselves unworthy of eternal life, behold, we are turning to the Gentiles". (vs46).

That last statement is important because you have to remember that even though you might believe in individual election to salvation, nevertheless; as Owen himself taught, every person who refuses the gospel at the last judgement will remember his willful act of rejection due only to his obstinacy and love of sin.

Those gentiles who believed there in Acts were ordained, individually, for salvation. The language of the statement demands it. But the significance of the statement in the context was that some of those ordained were gentiles. That hit the Jews right between the eyes and offended many of them. But some of the Jews were saved also. And they also were ordained to be saved.

 

[DaveXR650]

The Jews that opposed Paul in Acts 13 will remember that day and their refusal of the gospel message. So will the gentiles present who did not believe and never did later. Their refusal is the only reason that they will find themselves unsaved in the end. But it is also a true stated fact, revealed to us in scripture as an insight into God's revelation of himself, that all those individuals saved were indeed "ordained" to be saved. We don't know how that works.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

You say you believe what mainstream Calvinists believe, that you have to be saved prior to your being given faith, correct.

No! And that is not what mainstream Calvinists believe. Go away, stop bothering me, and find out what Calvinists believe.
I would offer to explain what I believe, but I've already told you and you haven't listened.

 

[JesusFan]

Hold on a moment. You accuse Martin Marprelate of believing that you you have to be saved prior to being given faith. Then you quote his words (my emphasis) which show that he doesn't believe any such thing:

I see that as saying that Martin believes, as I do, that the bible teaches God's election/choosing as happening "before the foundation of the earth," but that that nobody is actually save before they believe on the Lord Jesus Christ.

many posting here seem to have troubles equating hyper Calvinist as being the "normal Calvinist" default position

 

[JesusFan]

No! And that is not what mainstream Calvinists believe. Go away, stop bothering me, and find out what Calvinists believe.
I would offer to explain what I believe, but I've already told you and you haven't listened.

He seems to be fighting and kicking against Hyper Calvinist position

 

[Martin Marprelate]

He seems to be fighting and kicking against Hyper Calvinist position

Just so. It appears that he doesn't know the difference.

 

[Silverhair]

Hold on a moment. You accuse Martin Marprelate of believing that you you have to be saved prior to being given faith. Then you quote his words (my emphasis) which show that he doesn't believe any such thing:

There is the problem @David Lamb he said he holds to mainline calvinism which has one saved then given faith and then he says you have to have faith before you are saved.

My question for him and you is what do you actually believe? Do either of you hold to the TULIP? If you do not hold to the TULIP why do you call yourselves calvinists?

I see that as saying that Martin believes, as I do, that the bible teaches God's election/choosing as happening "before the foundation of the earth," but that that nobody is actually save before they believe on the Lord Jesus Christ.

The bible does not support your elect before the foundation of the world. One is only elect when they are in the Elect one, Christ Jesus, in other words saved. Were you in Christ prior to creation?

Did you have every spiritual blessing before you trusted in Christ?

But I have to ask if God chose a select group to be saved then He also chose all those not to be saved by not choosing them. But then we see in
1Ti 2:3 This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior,
1Ti 2:4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.
This passage makes it abundantly clear that God wills the salvation of every person. We see this shown in these passages also. John 3:17; John 12:32; 1John 2:2

So is God confused or is He being disingenuous or more likely you and Martin have misunderstood Eph 1:4.

 

[Silverhair]

No! And that is not what mainstream Calvinists believe. Go away, stop bothering me, and find out what Calvinists believe.
I would offer to explain what I believe, but I've already told you and you haven't listened.

So you do not hold to the TULIP? If not why do you say you hold to mainstream calvinism?