Actual Non Cal Doctrine

[mandym]

basically though, we shouldbe able to agree that main differences beyween cals and non in salvation are:

cals see the fall making man dead and unable to respond to Gospel . period
cals see God basing election on Himself alone, Not upon him either seeing our faith in a future sense, or else based upon us responding correctly!

Did you read my link?

 

[preacher4truth]

Your narrow determination of what either believes is incorrect. Again see my thread which I linked to. You are dead set on narrow labels that cause you great misrepresentation on a regular basis.

Um, no. He's on target. You? Not so much.

Try practicing your signature for a change; "What you say to and about others says a whole lot about you." OK? It's a great line, but looks better when you actually practice what you preach.

And take a gander here:

http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?p=1788273#post1788273

Leave off with your rushing into threads slinging the insults "childish," "immature," "hypocritical" and "snide" and open your eyes and see that what was said, that is, that LILAC is believed and is actually taught. By non-Calvinists. Thanks.

 

[webdog]

Wow, someone keeps trying to pull that speck out of the eye of everyone else with that telephone pole hanging from their eyelid.

 

[quantumfaith]

Um, no. He's on target. You? Not so much.

Try practicing your signature for a change; "What you say to and about others says a whole lot about you." OK? It's a great line, but looks better when you practice what you preach.

And take a gander here:

http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?p=1788273#post1788273

Leave off with your rushing into threads slinging the insults "childish," "immature," "hypocritical" and "snide" and open your eyes and see that what was said, that is, that LILAC is believed and is actually taught. By non-Calvinists. Thanks.

An excellent example of your profundity. I am thinking reading this post, "pot and kettle" and "beam in eye". You might be surprised how nice some might be to YOU should you try returning the favor.

 

[DaChaser1]

Um, no. He's on target. You? Not so much.

Try practicing your signature for a change; "What you say to and about others says a whole lot about you." OK? It's a great line, but looks better when you practice what you preach.

And take a gander here:

http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?p=1788273#post1788273

Leave off with your rushing into threads slinging the insults "childish," "immature," "hypocritical" and "snide" and open your eyes and see that what was said, that is, that LILAC is believed and is actually taught. By non-Calvinists. Thanks.

What is so hard for those bethren who refuse the DoG as regards to salvation just admitting that they do hold to some degree that we assist God in getting ourselves saved?

RCC co assist God by practicing the sacraments, while they would exercise 'free will!"

 

[Iconoclast]

I suppose that I could be called a TUP. I don't believe in a limited atonement and the bible clearly says God's grace can be resisted. Israel proved this to be so more times than I can count. So that leaves out the L and the I, hence I am a TUP.

the bible clearly says God's grace can be resisted.

God's grace can be resisted....right unto hell itself...acts 7:51
Men are born in a natural condition and resist God's grace.
That obviously is not what the I stands for.

Irresistable grace is God drawing His elect.in a special and particular way that is always effectual.....100% of the time.

5And when Jesus came to the place, he looked up, and saw him, and said unto him, Zacchaeus, make haste, and come down; for to day I must abide at thy house.

Many people where there ,He bypassed them to get to Zacchaeus house...
we are told why.....

9And Jesus said unto him, This day is salvation come to this house, forsomuch as he also is a son of Abraham. 10For the Son of man is come to seek and to save that which was lost

notice....Jesus did not beat the multitude away.....they did what they wanted to do. He had special care and grace given to Zacchaeus.


Chapter 10: Of Effectual Calling
1._____ Those whom God hath predestinated unto life, he is pleased in his appointed, and accepted time, effectually to call, by his Word and Spirit, out of that state of sin and death in which they are by nature, to grace and salvation by Jesus Christ; enlightening their minds spiritually and savingly to understand the things of God; taking away their heart of stone, and giving unto them a heart of flesh; renewing their wills, and by his almighty power determining them to that which is good, and effectually drawing them to Jesus Christ; yet so as they come most freely, being made willing by his grace.
( Romans 8:30; Romans 11:7; Ephesians 1:10, 11; 2 Thessalonians 2:13, 14; Ephesians 2:1-6; Acts 26:18; Ephesians 1:17, 18; Ezekiel 36:26; Deuteronomy 30:6; Ezekiel 36:27; Ephesians 1:19; Psalm 110:3; Song of Solomon 1:4 )
2._____ This effectual call is of God's free and special grace alone, not from anything at all foreseen in man, nor from any power or agency in the creature, being wholly passive therein, being dead in sins and trespasses, until being quickened and renewed by the Holy Spirit; he is thereby enabled to answer this call, and to embrace the grace offered and conveyed in it, and that by no less power than that which raised up Christ from the dead.
( 2 Timothy 1:9; Ephesians 2:8; 1 Corinthians 2:14; Ephesians 2:5; John 5:25; Ephesians 1:19, 20 )

3._____ Elect infants dying in infancy are regenerated and saved by Christ through the Spirit; who worketh when, and where, and how he pleases; so also are all elect persons, who are incapable of being outwardly called by the ministry of the Word.
( John 3:3, 5, 6; John 3:8 )

4._____ Others not elected, although they may be called by the ministry of the Word, and may have some common operations of the Spirit, yet not being effectually drawn by the Father, they neither will nor can truly come to Christ, and therefore cannot be saved: much less can men that receive not the Christian religion be saved; be they never so diligent to frame their lives according to the light of nature and the law of that religion they do profess.
( Matthew 22:14; Matthew 13:20, 21; Hebrews 6:4, 5; John 6:44, 45, 65; 1 John 2:24, 25; Acts 4:12; John 4:22; John 17:3 )

 

[MB]

I hold to Total Depravity – there is no way man, could on his own, have a will or desire to come to God. Man must be pursued by God who opens up his heart to receive the Gospel. In the garden Adam and Eve, once they sinned, hid from God and God pursued them to restore them. When Cain sinned against God with his inappropriate worship God pursued him in order to restore him. God has since pursued man by way of the gospel in order to restore him. Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God. We love God because He first loved us. God showed his love to us by pursuing us while we were in our sin and rejecting Him. (Genesis 3:9; Genesis 4:6, 7; I John4:19; Romans 5:8)

Well I'm not a Calvinist and I don't believe in total depravity

I hold the God’s Election of the Saints – This election occurs through the sanctification of the Spirit of God and is done on the basis of our belief in Him at which time we are given the power to become the Sons of God according to scripture. God reached out with grace to Adam and Eve and they repented of their sin. God also reached out to Cain who refused the grace of God and remained in his rebellion and was cast out to be a wanderer all the days of his life with the mark of God on him. Adam and Eve are of the elect while Cain is not. (Genesis 4:12; John 1:12; I Peter 1:2)

Men are not elected apart from Christ we are elected in Christ that is what scripture says.

I hold to a Unlimited Atonement – Atonement was made on behalf of all men. It is a free gift of God who has pursued all men that they may receive eternal life. But some men reject the grace of God which God allows in His sovereignty of all things in creation. (Romans 5:18; 6:23; John 3:19)

There you go again. Calvinist claim they believe in limited atonement which when you get down to the truth even they do not believe in this. They preach Jesus Christ saves just like us. They just don't tell anyone they have to be chosen first until after the fact.

I hold to the Grace of God – The grace of God is offered to all men, accepted by some and rejected by many. (John 3:16, 18; Matthew 7:13)

Hey! what do you know you got this right.

I hold to the Eternal and Secure Salvation of the Saints – Those who do know Him will never turn away from Him. Our salvation is held secure in the power of God. (I Peter 1:3-5)

True He is the author and finisher of our faith.

I hold to Biblical Salvation - No where in scripture does God divide the act of salvation and regeneration. Saints are just Born again. (John 3:16)

Regeneration and being born again are the same thing and they together is being delivered from the effects of our sins The word regeneration means to be remade. Grace is what saves though you can't have grace with out faith as in;
Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
You see faith needs to be in place inorder for grace to come through it.
Those like myself do not have a said flower to describe our beliefs, we use the Bible for that.
MB

 

[webdog]

What is so hard for those bethren who refuse the DoG as regards to salvation just admitting that they do hold to some degree that we assist God in getting ourselves saved?

RCC co assist God by practicing the sacraments, while they would exercise 'free will!"

Stop regurgitating the same garbage! Your premise is nothing but a strawman that keeps getting refuted...learn! When you accept a gift do you hold to some degree that you assisted the giver in you giving yourself the gift? If not, STOP WITH THE FALLACY for cryin out loud!

 

[Amy.G]

Irresistable grace is God drawing His elect.in a special and particular way that is always effectual.....100% of the time.

Can you please share some scripture that says some are drawn in a "special and particular" way?

 

[preacher4truth]

They just don't tell anyone they have to be chosen first until after the fact.

Some truths about our salvation and the process aren't known prior to salvation, but after. I don't think you're aware of this and you have a problem with DoG brothers who teach those converted truth after salvation.

We learn some facts of soteriology after salvation. Another thing, we are told to preach the Gospel to the lost, which is the death, burial and resurrection of Christ. Studious and honest believers come to the proper conclusion they were elect or chosen, by God, not vice versa.

Paul, saved on the Damascus road was, according to God, already chosen not only for salvation but for ministry even from his mothers womb. Galatians 1:15.

I highly doubt he grasped this instantaneously at conversion. Thus your argument is rather specious, deficient, and subsequently fallacious.

I smell some serious LILACS in here. :flower: :flower: :thumbsup:

Hmmmmm. :wavey:

 

[quantumfaith]

Hmmmmmm,

Specious, deficient and subsequently fallacious.


:BangHead::BangHead::BangHead:

 

[Iconoclast]

Can you please share some scripture that says some are drawn in a "special and particular" way?

12That ye would walk worthy of God, who hath called you unto his kingdom and glory.
13For this cause also thank we God without ceasing, because, when ye received the word of God which ye heard of us, ye received it not as the word of men, but as it is in truth, the word of God, which effectually worketh also in you that believe.

This effectual working of the word...is the work of the Spirit.

Titus 1

1Paul, a servant of God, and an apostle of Jesus Christ, according to the faith of God's elect, and the acknowledging of the truth which is after godliness;

2In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began;

AmyG...this calling ...and the faith of God's Elect.....were promised before the world began.

37All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out

Those given shall come....It is certain because it is the work of the Spirit!

It is 100 % certain.


All given...shall come.....

no man can.......unless drawn by God.

Jude 1

1Jude, the servant of Jesus Christ, and brother of James, to them that are sanctified by God the Father, and preserved in Jesus Christ, and called:

1] sanctified by the Father

2] preserved in Jesus Christ


3] called

set apart before the world was...given to Jesus
Jesus keeps them, losing none
they are called to this by the Spirit.

2Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

3Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

4To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you,

5Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

The whole work is God's...we are begotten, elect, foreknown,sanctified,kept by Him. It is a complete work...not a partial work.

3According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue:

9Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

 

[Amy.G]

AmyG...this calling ...and the faith of God's Elect.....were promised before the world began.

Ok. I don't seem to have a rebuttal. :laugh:

 

[Iconoclast]

Ok. I don't seem to have a rebuttal. :laugh:

AmyG

We should all rejoice in the truth and just enjoy the mercy and love of God.
He did not leave us dead in sins.He makes this love known to us, and calls us to the obedience of faith.

70As he spake by the mouth of his holy prophets, which have been since the world began: 71That we should be saved from our enemies, and from the hand of all that hate us;

72To perform the mercy promised to our fathers, and to remember his holy covenant;

73The oath which he sware to our father Abraham,
74That he would grant unto us, that we being delivered out of the hand of our enemies might serve him without fear,

75In holiness and righteousness before him, all the days of our life.

:thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:

 

[convicted1]

What is so hard for those bethren who refuse the DoG as regards to salvation just admitting that they do hold to some degree that we assist God in getting ourselves saved?

RCC co assist God by practicing the sacraments, while they would exercise 'free will!"

2 Chronicles 7:14 If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land.

2 Chron. 12:5-7

5 Then came Shemaiah the prophet to Rehoboam, and to the princes of Judah, that were gathered together to Jerusalem because of Shishak, and said unto them, Thus saith the LORD, Ye have forsaken me, and therefore have I also left you in the hand of Shishak.

6 Whereupon the princes of Israel and the king humbled themselves; and they said, The LORD is righteous.

7 And when the LORD saw that they humbled themselves, the word of the LORD came to Shemaiah, saying, They have humbled themselves; therefore I will not destroy them, but I will grant them some deliverance; and my wrath shall not be poured out upon Jerusalem by the hand of Shishak.

2 Chron. 12:11-12

11 And when the king entered into the house of the LORD, the guard came and fetched them, and brought them again into the guard chamber.

12 And when he humbled himself, the wrath of the LORD turned from him, that he would not destroy him altogether: and also in Judah things went well.

James 4:6 But he giveth more grace. Wherefore he saith, God resisteth the proud, but giveth grace unto the humble.

James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

1 Peter 5:5-7

5 Likewise, ye younger, submit yourselves unto the elder. Yea, all of you be subject one to another, and be clothed with humility: for God resisteth the proud, and giveth grace to the humble.

6 Humble yourselves therefore under the mighty hand of God, that he may exalt you in due time:

7 Casting all your care upon him; for he careth for you.

We are the ones who must humble ourselves when He calls. We must drop our pride, and come to Him in all humility, seeking His favour, His Grace, and His mercy. W/O humbleness, we will not be saved.

 

[convicted1]

I hold to Total Depravity – there is no way man, could on his own, have a will or desire to come to God. Man must be pursued by God who opens up his heart to receive the Gospel. In the garden Adam and Eve, once they sinned, hid from God and God pursued them to restore them. When Cain sinned against God with his inappropriate worship God pursued him in order to restore him. God has since pursued man by way of the gospel in order to restore him. Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God. We love God because He first loved us. God showed his love to us by pursuing us while we were in our sin and rejecting Him. (Genesis 3:9; Genesis 4:6, 7; I John4:19; Romans 5:8)

I hold the God’s Election of the Saints – This election occurs through the sanctification of the Spirit of God and is done on the basis of our belief in Him at which time we are given the power to become the Sons of God according to scripture. God reached out with grace to Adam and Eve and they repented of their sin. God also reached out to Cain who refused the grace of God and remained in his rebellion and was cast out to be a wanderer all the days of his life with the mark of God on him. Adam and Eve are of the elect while Cain is not. (Genesis 4:12; John 1:12; I Peter 1:2)

I hold to a Unlimited Atonement – Atonement was made on behalf of all men. It is a free gift of God who has pursued all men that they may receive eternal life. But some men reject the grace of God which God allows in His sovereignty of all things in creation. (Romans 5:18; 6:23; John 3:19)

I hold to the Grace of God – The grace of God is offered to all men, accepted by some and rejected by many. (John 3:16, 18; Matthew 7:13)

I hold to the Eternal and Secure Salvation of the Saints – Those who do know Him will never turn away from Him. Our salvation is held secure in the power of God. (I Peter 1:3-5)

I hold to Biblical Salvation - No where in scripture does God divide the act of salvation and regeneration. Saints are just Born again. (John 3:16)

This pretty much sums things up with me, too. I am in agreement with this "camp"........

 

[convicted1]

The non cals theology is that man was NOT made spiritually dead by the effects of the fall, and that we still have left enough free will to make the decision to accept/reject Christ "on our own"

Where is the misrepresenting the position ?.

the basis of election in call here...

cals see it based upon God, non cals based upon man!

Same song, different verse, I see........

 

[convicted1]

Ok. I don't seem to have a rebuttal. :laugh:

Look behind you, and you'll find that you do, in fact, have a rebuttal........:laugh:

 

[convicted1]

Ok. I don't seem to have a rebuttal. :laugh:

On a seroius note for a change, I agree with you on what Brother Iconoclast wrote.

 

[preacher4truth]

AmyG

We should all rejoice in the truth and just enjoy the mercy and love of God.
He did not leave us dead in sins.He makes this love known to us, and calls us to the obedience of faith.
[/U]

Those of other theological strains would say that is not for the church, that is for the Jews and blah blah blah blah.

I think some peoples theology is just on a slant to attempt to ruin in the minds of Gods people His promises in the Word to them.

They're Sadducee! :tear:

:wavey: