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Adam and Eve
- Thread starter Salty
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I agree @Van
for Adam was first formed, then Eve, and Adam was not deceived, but the woman, having been deceived, into transgression came, and she shall be saved through the child-bearing, if they remain in faith, and love, and sanctification, with sobriety. 1 Tim 2;13-15
Looks similar to the following.
(For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law. Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come. Rom 5:13,14
Adam was formed and given a law. Afterward the woman was taken from the man as a help meet. Just as above, she wasn't given the law yet was in the transgression and died yet will be saved. How? Through the child-bearing. What child-bearing? The Son of God, the Christ? That is how she is the help meet of the man. Yes or No?
IMHO
Gen 1:26,27 YLT And God saith, 'Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness, and let them rule over fish of the sea, and over fowl of the heavens, and over cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that is creeping on the earth.' And God prepareth the man in His image; in the image of God He prepared him, a male and a female He prepared them.
took place because of; He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
From the beginning this was truth. because we have not the wrestling with blood and flesh, but with the principalities, with the authorities, with the world-rulers of the darkness of this age, with the spiritual things of the evil in the heavenly places; Eph 6:12 YLT
2 Cor 4:4 YLT in whom the god of this age did blind the minds of the unbelieving, that there doth not shine forth to them the enlightening of the good news of the glory of the Christ, who is the image of God;
When did this age begin, with a god, who blinds in darkness?
Before the foundation of the world, was The God going to do battle with and and destroy, the god of this age, the devil and his works through flesh and blood?
Why was man and the Son of Man made a little lower than the angels? Heb 2?
Some logic to consider;
12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin;
1) Sin was not in the world until Adam ate of the forbidden tree
2) Eve ate of the forbidden tree before sin was in the world
3) Eve is not a man but a woman.
4) Adam received the law concerning the tree before Eve was created
5) The headship of Adam over the woman was ordered after they ate the fruit and because of it.
6) Sin is the transgression of the law
7) Sin is not imputed to one's account when there is no law
8) Where there is no law there is no transgression
9) Eve did not have knowledge and understanding and was therefore innocent
10) Eve was deceived by the Serpent and his lie.
11) Adam was not deceived by the Serpent and his lie
12) Eve did not have consciousness of good and evil when she ate of the tree
13) When Eve ate of the tree Adam was there with her Gen 3:6
14) The key words in Gen 3:6 are "with her" the 46th & 47th words of v 6 in the KJ text
15) Adam blamed the woman for his sin of eating the fruit, not the Serpent
16) Eve blamed the Serpent for beguiling her and for being the cause of her eating Gen 3:13
17) Adam could have refused to eat the fruit and all would have been well.
18) The language suggests they both went together to the tree with the express purpose of eating the fruit.
19) The portal was opened by the deed of Adam for sin to enter into the world
20) Sin became a sovereign who reigned unto physical death.
21) Adam died immediately when he ate the fruit.
22) He died physically 930 years later when his spirit (his soul) departed his body.
23) Adam was cast out of the garden where God dwelled and therefore lost the presence of God
24) God in the person of his Spirit departed the body of Adam because sin now dwelled there.
25) The Spirit of God is the life of God.
26) Adam's image was different when he dwelled on the outside of the Garden of God.
27) He was a body and a soul and all his offspring inherited his image.
28) Jesus Christ was the second man who possessed the image of God, Soul, Body, And Spirit of God
29) He did no sin and offered himself as a substitute for their penalty of death for all sinners to redeem them to God
30) God accepted his payment and promised to give his life as the gift of God for those who repents and believes him
31) The life of God, his Spirit, is not "a" gift of God, but it is "the" gift of God.
32) Thus we are renewed to the image of Jesus Christ, who is the express image of God.
33) That image is trinitarian, Soul, body, And Spirit of God.
34) No one can stand in the presence of God without his image.
35) We will be presented in his presence when we receive the new body having already received the new birth..
36) Ye must be born again!
37) We are all born of Adam and are like him
38) We must be born of God and be like him.
39) We are born again when we receive the Spirt of God by believing what God says.
40) God says repent and believe the gospel and he will save whosoever will.
I understand that not all Bible readers will come to the same understanding because we are not reading the same words. How could we all come to the same understanding reading different words?
No logic to consider. Eve was as much in the world as Adam was. Eve knew the law same as Adam. (Whether he or God told it to her doesn't matter. ) She was created by God to be a help suitable for him. And Eve certainly knew good from evil after she ate.
Try reading the pertinent Scriptures more-closely.
True, but Eve's action is not said to be "sin." And note in verse 7 that only after Adam volitionally sinned, were their eyes "opened"
robycop3, my efforts of attempting to understand the mind of God is to carefully consider the words God says on a given subject in the KJV. One or two subtle differences in words can oftentimes make a great difference in how our thinking and meditation are directed. My understanding is that all men come into the world in a state of innocence and become accountable only after they have ability to reason in their heart the difference between good and evil.
Obviously Adam had more light than did Eve because he fellowshipped with God in the garden before the fall and God had instructed him that he would die in the day he ate of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. He knew these things because he had been told, but he had not experienced the consequences that were associated with the act committed in the body. Whether or not the same restriction concerning the tree was placed on Eve, I do not think I can be sure in this stage of my spiritual development and understanding. I know she used the pronoun "we" shall surely die when she spoke to the Serpent, but she also used other words that was not in the context of what they were to do, such as "neither shall you touch it." Perhaps the Serpent chose this avenue to usurp the authority over the earth that God had given Adam by co-ercing Eve to persuade Adam to eat the fruit of the tree.
The conscience of man was not awakened until this event. Dispensationalists calls this "the dispensation of conscience." We know from other scriptures how that sin enters into a man and it is through ones who have knowledge and reason and intellect and a will that can choose to operate outside the will of God. This essentially makes a person their own god. It required an experiential knowledge of sin before it is charged against him.
Here are some pertinent scriptures, but not an exhaustive list for sure.
1 Jn 2:15 Love not the world, neither the things [that are] in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him.
16 For all that [is] in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.
17 And the world passeth away, and the lust thereof: but he that doeth the will of God abideth for ever.
4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:
5 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.
6 And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make [one] wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.
The process of sin:
James 1:12 Blessed is the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to them that love him.
13 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:
14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.
16 Do not err, my beloved brethren.
I admit that I am on a quest for understanding and have not arrived at this point. If I comment on this event a year from now, I might have more light and will adjust my thinking accordingly. Meanwhile I admit I can be in error on some of my bullet points.
Do you agree with the statement below?
Men are born morally neutral with an equal capacity for either good or evil.
An infant is not born in sin nor does it possess any innate moral characteristics. Such are obtained only by the exercise of the will and the habits that develop from it. In other words, we are “socialized” to sin or “conditioned” to sin because of continual exposure to a family and society that are themselves sinful for the same reasons.
10 Things You Should Know about Pelagius and Pelagianism
By Eve's own words, she knew God's commands. I don't know if God Himself told her, or Adam did, but it's clear she knew them. While some people claim she added to God's words with "not even touch it", she evidently didn't, as God didn't hold her accountable for adding to His words.
When Satan told her the lie "you shall NOT die", she chose to believe him over God. Thus, she sinned first.
Yes, she was deceived and did what she should have known, if not deceived, was going against the expressed will of God.
Consider the Greek word translated as "sin." (harmartias) in Romans 6:23. Here not only volitional sin, going against the expressed will of God, is in view, but also "inadvertent sin" doing something unknowingly against the will of God. (See Romans 5:14.) Thus our word can be used narrowly to only refer to volitional sin, but at other times refers to every kind of sin. Thus when Paul says "sin entered humanity" (Romans 5:12) he may have been using "sin" in its narrow sense, rather than it its broad sense.
What I am saying with certainty is that Eve was not said to have sinned before "sin entered humanity" due to Adam's volitional sin.
No, Men are born "innocent" as were Adam and Eve innocent before they were guilty of a sin. Innocent does not mean perfect. Sin is a sovereign in the world now and is obeyed when one has the capacity to knowingly obey it. All men will obey because without the Spirit of God one has no power to resist it continually. I refer you to this verse among many I could cite.
Ro 5:21 That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.
Two men in a city are killed the same day. One is killed by an armed intruder. The other is killed by a vicious hound dog. The armed robber is apprehended and put on trial to give an answer for his sin. The dog is apprehended and put to death without a trial. Why the difference? Why not a trial for the dog. It is because it does not have a moral consciences and it has no ability to reason and consider consequences. The dog cannot understand the law. The man can.The dog has no conscience of good and evil, the man does.
Of course this would not be an argument for a well informed and studious Christian who believes God is Good to all, like he claims for himself in Psa 145:9. Men are not born "in sin," unless you are speaking of the mother. Men are born as "natural" men. Their is a natural part of men as God created him. It is physical. It was God's idea to create a man in this fashion. He also created a man to have self awareness, so he gave him a spirit. God named the spirit of man "soul." He actually gave him a soul from his own stock. We do not get our soul from our mother or our dad. It is an eternal soul and we get it from God but through a natural act of conception between two people. The life of the physical part of man is in his blood, which means he can die physically, but his spirit cannot cease to be. His spirit requires a place and can be in only one place at any given time.
God only created one man who would be the father of all men and he did not create him to be just a natural man, but a spiritual man. So therefore God gave him his Spirit to dwell in his body ,This made the man in the image of God, a trinitarian man with the human spirit and the divine nature. One should not be thrown by the term "divine nature" as pertaining to God living in the body of a man because of this;
2Pe 1:4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.
The soul is intended to control the acts of the body, but it is often the other way around because the flesh warreth against the spirit (soul) and the spirit against the flesh, so that ye cannot do the thing ye would, Jesus said. The idea is for the spirit of man to control the flesh as t5he spirit of man is controlled by the Spirit of God who is in him, giving him perfect direction. Sin that entered the world in Adam made the flesh weak and powerless and it usurps the power of the spirit (soul).
The best Christian in the world cannot keep from committing sins at times while he is in this body, according to God.
1Jo 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
I say this to let you know that you are going to let this "giant" called Palaginism (whatever that is) destroy you and you are going to continue through this life under his spell.
Men cannot sin until they understand law!
Much more needs to be said but this is enough for now.
God draws a portrait of a man and calls it a tabernacle (tent). It has three parts. It was placed in the wilderness and it was where God dwelt among his people Israel. The three parts was the outer court, which represents the flesh. Then there was the inner court where there was light for seeing and water for washing and it represents the abode of the soul of man in the body. Then there is the Holy Place where God lives and meets with man in the Spirit. The ark of the covenant is there where the blood of the sacrifice is applied.
There is reasoning and logic in the scriptures and God gives us physical likenesses of all his spiritual truths. Adam was in the middle between the Spirit and the flesh. He could have gone in either direction when he was tried and when he yielded to the flesh. One trial would have been all he would have ever had if he would have yielded to God and his offspring would have been in the image of God (tripart) instead of the image of a fallen creature (bi-part). The sons of Adam now have no enduring power over the flesh.
There is reasoning and logic in the scriptures and God gives us physical likenesses of all his spiritual truths. Adam was in the middle between the Spirit and the flesh. He could have gone in either direction when he was tried and when he yielded to the flesh. One trial would have been all he would have ever had if he would have yielded to God and his offspring would have been in the image of God (tripart) instead of the image of a fallen creature (bi-part). The sons of Adam now have no enduring power over the flesh.
Returning to the idea of defining "sin" such that clarity and not confusion arises from God's word, let us consider different aspects of Sin.
1) Any deviation from God's will for our thoughts and actions.
2) Any deviation where we knew beforehand such thought or action violated God's express will.
3) The just consequence imposed by God for any deviation from His will, volitional or inadvertent.
What if we used "sin" for #1, "trespass" for #2 and "forfeiture" for #3.
Thus Eve did not trespass in the likeness of Adam's trespass because she was deceived. However, Adam willingly sinned, Genesis 3:17, and so his action should be translated as "trespass."
Romans 2:12 (NASB)
For all who have sinned without the Law will also perish without the Law, and all who have trespassed under the Law will be judged by that Law.
Romans 3:23
for all forfeited and fallen short of the glory of God,
Romans 5:12
Therefore, just as through one man forfeiture entered into the world, and death through forfeiture and so death spread to all mankind, because all forfeited.
Note that to be "made sinners" Romans 5:19 would now read the many were made to forfeit.
1) Any deviation from God's will for our thoughts and actions.
2) Any deviation where we knew beforehand such thought or action violated God's express will.
3) The just consequence imposed by God for any deviation from His will, volitional or inadvertent.
What if we used "sin" for #1, "trespass" for #2 and "forfeiture" for #3.
Thus Eve did not trespass in the likeness of Adam's trespass because she was deceived. However, Adam willingly sinned, Genesis 3:17, and so his action should be translated as "trespass."
Romans 2:12 (NASB)
For all who have sinned without the Law will also perish without the Law, and all who have trespassed under the Law will be judged by that Law.
Romans 3:23
for all forfeited and fallen short of the glory of God,
Romans 5:12
Therefore, just as through one man forfeiture entered into the world, and death through forfeiture and so death spread to all mankind, because all forfeited.
Note that to be "made sinners" Romans 5:19 would now read the many were made to forfeit.
Is it correct to apply to the Adam of;
And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul. Gen 2:7 KJV
this;
What, then, shall we say? the law is sin? let it not be! but the sin I did not know except through law, for also the covetousness I had not known if the law had not said: 'Thou shalt not covet;' [of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, thou dost not eat of it,] and the sin having received an opportunity, through the command, did work in me all covetousness -- for apart from law sin is dead. And I was alive apart from law once, and the command having come, the sin revived, and I died; and the command that is for life, this was found by me for death; for the sin, having received an opportunity, through the command, did deceive me, and through it did slay me; so that the law, indeed, is holy, and the command holy, and righteous, and good. That which is good then, to me hath it become death? let it not be! but the sin, that it might appear sin, through the good, working death to me, that the sin might become exceeding sinful through the command, for we have known that the law is spiritual, and I am fleshly, sold by the sin; Romans 7:7-14 YLT
But one in a certain place testified, saying, What is man, that thou art mindful of him? or the son of man, that thou visitest him? Thou madest him a little lower than the angels; From Heb 2:6,7
Why? Why was the Adam of Gen 2:7 made a little lower than the angels? Why was the Adam of Gen 2:7 given a law? Was the woman taken from the man for the purpose of the seed of the woman relative to the serpent?
and enmity I put between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; he doth bruise thee -- the head, and thou dost bruise him -- the heel.' Gen 3:15 YLT
and the God of the peace shall bruise the Adversary under your feet quickly; (In quickness) the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you. Amen! Rom 16:20 YLT
the last enemy is done away -- (the) death; 1 Cor 15:26 YLT ὁ θάνατος·
Forasmuch then as the children (of Adam) are partakers of flesh and blood, he (Christ, The Son of God, The Son of Man, Jesus) also himself likewise took part of the same; that through (the) death he might destroy him that had the power of (the) death, that is, the devil; Heb 2:14
My question is; Was the plan this would take place, IF Sin came into the world or was it THE plan before the foundation (down casting, for some) of the world (configuration, system)?
And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day. Gen 1:31
Rom 9:19-21 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will? Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
Rom 8:28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.
Was the purpose of the first man Adam, the Son of Man, the last Adam, the Son of God according to purpose > 1 John 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, (As Adam) that he might destroy the works of the devil.
And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul. Gen 2:7 KJV
this;
What, then, shall we say? the law is sin? let it not be! but the sin I did not know except through law, for also the covetousness I had not known if the law had not said: 'Thou shalt not covet;' [of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, thou dost not eat of it,] and the sin having received an opportunity, through the command, did work in me all covetousness -- for apart from law sin is dead. And I was alive apart from law once, and the command having come, the sin revived, and I died; and the command that is for life, this was found by me for death; for the sin, having received an opportunity, through the command, did deceive me, and through it did slay me; so that the law, indeed, is holy, and the command holy, and righteous, and good. That which is good then, to me hath it become death? let it not be! but the sin, that it might appear sin, through the good, working death to me, that the sin might become exceeding sinful through the command, for we have known that the law is spiritual, and I am fleshly, sold by the sin; Romans 7:7-14 YLT
But one in a certain place testified, saying, What is man, that thou art mindful of him? or the son of man, that thou visitest him? Thou madest him a little lower than the angels; From Heb 2:6,7
Why? Why was the Adam of Gen 2:7 made a little lower than the angels? Why was the Adam of Gen 2:7 given a law? Was the woman taken from the man for the purpose of the seed of the woman relative to the serpent?
and enmity I put between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; he doth bruise thee -- the head, and thou dost bruise him -- the heel.' Gen 3:15 YLT
and the God of the peace shall bruise the Adversary under your feet quickly; (In quickness) the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you. Amen! Rom 16:20 YLT
the last enemy is done away -- (the) death; 1 Cor 15:26 YLT ὁ θάνατος·
Forasmuch then as the children (of Adam) are partakers of flesh and blood, he (Christ, The Son of God, The Son of Man, Jesus) also himself likewise took part of the same; that through (the) death he might destroy him that had the power of (the) death, that is, the devil; Heb 2:14
My question is; Was the plan this would take place, IF Sin came into the world or was it THE plan before the foundation (down casting, for some) of the world (configuration, system)?
And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day. Gen 1:31
Rom 9:19-21 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will? Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
Rom 8:28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.
Was the purpose of the first man Adam, the Son of Man, the last Adam, the Son of God according to purpose > 1 John 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, (As Adam) that he might destroy the works of the devil.
What is the difference between morally neutral and innocent? Morally neutral would not be perfect either, but it would mean innocent, would it not?
Anyone who reads your statements can make the obvious connection.
I suppose it would mean a lot to someone whose purpose was to understand it and to fit the information into a rigid systematic theological network. To others, who would like to have the words of the text to be the teacher, not only in the initial text, but by comparing other later texts that addresses the subject so as to get the mind of God on it, the difference between morally neutral and innocent would be very important.
I can't get over the fact that our Lord Jesus is contrasted in the new creation as the head of the family, the last Adam, to the head of the initial family, the first Adam. Eve is not in the conversation with headship. Jesus is nowhere compared or contrasted to Eve.
I cannot be persuaded that this following verse does not mean what it says. It is not required that I must understand it in order to believe it. The words are too clearly stated to mean anything but what it says. The context has nothing in it about Eve.
Ro 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
Ro 5:12 Wherefore <1223> <5124>, as <5618> by <1223> one <1520> man <444> sin <266> entered <1525> (5627) into <1519> the world <2889 - Kosmos>, and <2532> death <2288> by <1223> sin <266>; and <2532> so <3779> death <2288> passed <1330> (5627) upon <1519> all <3956> men <444>, for <1909> that <3739> all <3956> have sinned <264> (5627):
Having said that, I know I have much more to learn on this subject. My mind is open and searching.
That's a lot of words to avoid my question. I will try again, and hope you answer it.
What is the difference between morally neutral and innocent?
Morally neutral would not be perfect either, but it would mean innocent, would it not?
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