Adam represented all men and Christ represented...who exactly?

[Winman]

C. In This Sense of “Regeneration,” It Comes Before Saving Faith
Using the verses quoted above, we have defined regeneration to be the act of God awakening spiritual life within us, bringing us from spiritual death to spiritual life. On this definition, it is natural to understand that regeneration comes before saving faith. It is in fact this work of God that gives us the spiritual ability to respond to God in faith.

This contradicts scripture I just showed you. This says

Regeneration------>Saving Faith

The scriptures say

Hear word of God------>Saving Faith------>Receive Holy Spirit.

The men Peter preached to were not regenerated when it says their hearts were pricked, they were convicted. Jesus said when the Holy Spirit comes he will reprove or convict the world of sin, not regenerate men to believe.

John 16:8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:

Look up the word reprove, it means to convict, correct, or make one ashamed.

Then Peter tells these men to repent. Now, they did not do this because they were regenerated, because Peter told them they must repent and believe on Christ before they could receive the Holy Spirit.

So, this doctrine is false and does not agree with the clear teaching of scripture.

As I showed before in Ephesians 1:13, the scriptures say you hear the word of God, then believe the word of God, and lastly receive the Holy Spirit. Exactly as Peter showed in Acts 2.

And what about Paul? He met the Lord on the road to Damascus. He knew it was the Lord, but he did not know who he was ("Who art thou Lord?"). Then he heard the word of God, Jesus spoke to him ("I am Jesus whom thou persecutest"). This is when Paul believed, at this very moment. He called Jesus Lord after this ("Lord, what wilt thou have me to do?"). Paul did not believe Jesus to be Lord up until this moment, he was persecuting those who followed Jesus.

But Paul did not receive the Holy Ghost until three days later.

Acts 9:8 And Saul arose from the earth; and when his eyes were opened, he saw no man: but they led him by the hand, and brought him into Damascus.
9 And he was three days without sight, and neither did eat nor drink.

Acts 9:17 And Ananias went his way, and entered into the house; and putting his hands on him said, Brother Saul, the Lord, even Jesus, that appeared unto thee in the way as thou camest, hath sent me, that thou mightest receive thy sight, and be filled with the Holy Ghost.

So, Paul clearly heard Jesus's words, believed, but did not receive the Holy Ghost until three days afterward. So he could not have been regenerated to have the ability to hear and believe by the Spirit, he did not have it yet.

 

[annsni]

This contradicts scripture I just showed you. This says

Regeneration------>Saving Faith

The scriptures say

Hear word of God------>Saving Faith------>Receive Holy Spirit.

The men Peter preached to were not regenerated when it says their hearts were pricked, they were convicted. Jesus said when the Holy Spirit comes he will reprove or convict the world of sin, not regenerate men to believe.

John 16:8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:

Look up the word reprove, it means to convict, correct, or make one ashamed.

Then Peter tells these men to repent. Now, they did not do this because they were regenerated, because Peter told them they must repent and believe on Christ before they could receive the Holy Spirit.

So, this doctrine is false and does not agree with the clear teaching of scripture.

As I showed before in Ephesians 1:13, the scriptures say you hear the word of God, then believe the word of God, and lastly receive the Holy Spirit. Exactly as Peter showed in Acts 2.

And what about Paul? He met the Lord on the road to Damascus. He knew it was the Lord, but he did not know who he was ("Who art thou Lord?"). Then he heard the word of God, Jesus spoke to him ("I am Jesus whom thou persecutest"). This is when Paul believed, at this very moment. He called Jesus Lord after this ("Lord, what wilt thou have me to do?"). Paul did not believe Jesus to be Lord up until this moment, he was persecuting those who followed Jesus.

But Paul did not receive the Holy Ghost until three days later.

Acts 9:8 And Saul arose from the earth; and when his eyes were opened, he saw no man: but they led him by the hand, and brought him into Damascus.
9 And he was three days without sight, and neither did eat nor drink.

Acts 9:17 And Ananias went his way, and entered into the house; and putting his hands on him said, Brother Saul, the Lord, even Jesus, that appeared unto thee in the way as thou camest, hath sent me, that thou mightest receive thy sight, and be filled with the Holy Ghost.

So, Paul clearly heard Jesus's words, believed, but did not receive the Holy Ghost until three days afterward. So he could not have been regenerated to have the ability to hear and believe by the Spirit, he did not have it yet.

See, it is the term "regenerated" that is causing the problem. In your dictionary, it has a meaning of being a believer and being born again. However, there is more to it than that according to the reformed position. That is where the issue continues to stand.

 

[zrs6v4]

Winman-

I think your just pouring out Scripture and not dealing with the ones I presented you accurately. On another thread I gave you 3 good orders of salvation and Ill apply them all. Lets try this method.

#1-Arminian ordo salutis- Prevenient grace, Faith, [Union with Christ], Justification, Regeneration, Sanctification, Glorification

This order would probably agree with you that God's call is not determinant and that the men choose to have faith and because of this God has elected them unto salvation. After their choosing to have faith, they received the Holy Spirit/born again/sealed and are preserved by God until the day they enter heaven and are glorified.

#2-Calvinist Ordo Salutis- Election/Predestination (unconditional), Regeneration, Faith, Justification, Sanctification, Glorification

The Calvinist take would be that God predetermined all events of time by His choice or His will and everything works after that counsel and His will is immutable as is His Persons. When time is just perfect according to His will, God sovereignly gets the call out to the elect. As they are hearing the Gospel audibly (generally speaking) He mysteriously calls them internally to providentially maintain all events. When God comes and regenerates a person (period of time in between is unknown) he/she always comes to saving faith in accordance to His will. The very instance saving faith happens the person is justified and sealed for eternity. Sanctification begins and the person is preserved by God's grace the same way God saved them (mysteriously; don't test God and your faith prove vain), and ultimately when one is truly saved he/she will be glorified.

#3 (more extensive possibility of a Calvinist)- Election/Predestination, Gospel, Internal Call/teaching, Faith, Regeneration-justification-sealing, sanctification, glorification.

Just as #2 God elects and ordains all events and occurances to the very split second of time. When the time comes God sends a messenger to the chosen vessel of grace and the Gospel is preached. While the Gospel is preached God (Holy Spirit) opens up the heart of the chosen one (teaches, effectually calls) and He hears, understands, and has saving faith. The very second saving faith happens the person is regenerated/born again/justified/seals by the Spirit. This person is upheld by God's grace and is preserved, sanctified, and glorified.

So as you see in Acts 2, I think it is evident that people must be called by God and those who are called are saved. So either Order #1 or #2 are best fit.

Now you threw out a few more Scriptures that we can apply these Orders to.

John 16:8: Yes the Spirit's work is to internally convict of sin, righteousness, and judgment. The context of world in that instance (I havent looked) is most likely sinners.
so either....

#1 (Arminian)- The Spirit convicts every sinner that has ever lived with the Gospel and all freely have a chance to be saved, but its their choice

#2 or #3 (Cal)- God convicts all sinners in some degree, but the conviction that comes through the gospel is a different case. Some arent called and are somewhat scared or feel guilty and arent saved, so in some sense they rejected the Holy Spirit and arent saved. Yet another possible is that the Spirit convicts the elect in a different sense that they are not only convicted at the very core, but they see God's righteousness, and judgment in a way that they are completely changed and drawn to faith in Christ. There is no force, but it is irresistable and surely God could do it to all mankind, but chooses not to.

You then said
Then Peter tells these men to repent. Now, they did not do this because they were regenerated, because Peter told them they must repent and believe on Christ before they could receive the Holy Spirit.
so lets again apply orders of Salvation

#1- agree with you that one must believe then regenerated, etc...
#2- says the person was regenerated by the Spirit, then believed, then was given or sealed by the Holy Spirit.
#3- says that one was Called/taught by/effectually worked on by the Holy Spirit, then had saving faith and then was indwelt/born again/saved.

In any case the Spirit must work in ones heart before they recieve the Gospel, and I dont think He works the same in everyones heart for many Scriptural reasons.

Paul- a good example. why is it that you dont think that the Holy Spirit was at work in Him? The Spirit can simply command "See" and the person sees Christ and is changed forever, or the Spirit could reveal things slowly as He chooses. Just because Scripture doesn't always say the Spirit was at work does not mean that He wasn't. Paul was converted on the road to Damascus. I do think the Holy Spirit was at work. Many times in Acts, Luke says people who were already filled with the Holy Spirit are being filled with the Holy Spirit which indicates something powerful is going to happen and not always the indwelling of the Spirit (indication of New covenant fullness). The Spirit was active before Acts but now is in a more powerful sense. Lukes writing is odd, when people die they fall asleep. So I think Paul was saved at His conversion regenerated in whatever order you want to put it in. I really can't say whether Luke was trying to say that Paul was not sealed/indwelt/regenerated yet or Luke simply meant the symbol of the fullness of New Covenant power.

Examples: Pentecost- They were filled with the Holy Spirit and spoke tongues
Acts 4:27-31- They were filled again with the Holy Spirit and recieved boldness

You end your post by saying-
So, Paul clearly heard Jesus's words, believed, but did not receive the Holy Ghost until three days afterward. So he could not have been regenerated to have the ability to hear and believe by the Spirit, he did not have it yet.

You must assume the Spirit was not at work within Paul just because the Scripture doesn't indicate, and I think that is incorrect. Whether you want to call it convicting work, regenerating work, indwelling, or whatever there is no indication on either of our views to say the Spirit was or wasnt.

Now why do you think in Acts 2:39 Peter goes on and says to those who he offers repentance that as many as the Lord God will call to Himself. What do you think that means?

I think it clearly means that in some way that everyone who is repenting and heeding to Peter's words are the same ones that God is calling to Himself. focus on this point by itself.

Then 2 chapter Later when Peter is praying for boldness to the believers why is it that he says in 4:28 "to do whatever Your hand and Your purpose predestined to occur." I think this shows the mindset of Peter as to how God works out His will.

 

[webdog]

See, it is the term "regenerated" that is causing the problem. In your dictionary, it has a meaning of being a believer and being born again. However, there is more to it than that according to the reformed position. That is where the issue continues to stand.

Not quite. It's not the dictionary that states that...it is Scripture. The reformed position on regeneration clearly contradicts Scritpure.

 

[zrs6v4]

As I showed before in Ephesians 1:13, the scriptures say you hear the word of God, then believe the word of God, and lastly receive the Holy Spirit. Exactly as Peter showed in Acts 2.

Now lets do Ephesians 1:1-14

1 Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God, To the saints who are at Ephesus and who are faithful in Christ Jesus:

Paul was an apostle by God's will and wrote to the saints in the church in Ephesus.

2 Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ,

God blesses us with every spiritual blessing we have

4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him In love

God chose us in before time began to be saved through Christs righteousness and blood that we may be Holy and set apart for His will. This is because of His love.

5 He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will,

God predetermined our adoption as children of God through His Son's work, according to His kindness/mercy of His Will. also See John 1:9-13 for a better image of how this plays out.

6 to the praise of the glory of His grace, which He freely bestowed on us in the Beloved.

He did this predetermining through His Son by His will so that His grace would be glorified. Grace is an unmerrited gift of mercy not based on any thing we do or did. God freely bestowed this on us.

7 In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of His grace

In Christ we (saints) have been purchased by the price of His atonement according to His mercy.

8 which He lavished on us. In all wisdom and insight

God bestowed grace on us.

9 He made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His kind intention which He purposed in Him


With His great wisdom and insight He made known to us the mystery of His will in Christ.

10 with a view to an administration suitable to the fullness of the times, that is, the summing up of all things in Christ, things in the heavens and things on the earth. In Him

He made this mystery known at the perfect time. the right time according to God's plan. He is summing up all of His large plan from beginning to end in heaven and on earth.

11 also we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will,

In Christ we have obtained an inheritance. This is because we were predestined according to God's purpose who works everything that happens in time after His will.

12 to the end that we who were the first to hope in Christ would be to the praise of His glory.

All of this is purposed and predestined after God's will so that His glory will be praised.

13 In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation--having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise,

Now your verse comes, In Christ, we, after hearing the gospel and believing were sealed in Christ with the Holy Spirit. Dont forget that all of this works after the counsel of God's will and is a gift to us. (Phil 1:29) Even our believing was part of the blessing in verse 3.

14 who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of God's own possession, to the praise of His glory.

The sealing of the Holy Spirit is finished after faith and is given as a promise of our inheritance in Christ because He bought us with His blood for His possession all for His glory.

 

[zrs6v4]

Not quite. It's not the dictionary that states that...it is Scripture. The reformed position on regeneration clearly contradicts Scritpure.

Do you have any Scripture that indicates that the regenerating work is equal to the sealing?

 

[Winman]

That was a good post. But some of the doctrine presented as Calvinistic does not match up with what many Calvinists here teach. One of the most difficult problems in this debate is no two Calvinists seem to believe the same thing.

This statement is closest to what I believe the scriptures teach, but I do not like being labeled Arminian. I have never studied these doctrines and may disagree with them in many points, I don't know.

This order would probably agree with you that God's call is not determinant and that the men choose to have faith and because of this God has elected them unto salvation. After their choosing to have faith, they received the Holy Spirit/born again/sealed and are preserved by God until the day they enter heaven and are glorified.

This seems close to what I believe, although I am not sure what others understand the word "determinant" to mean. Is it God's will a man be saved? Yes. Does God impose salvation on a man? No.

I do not agree with #2 and will highlight those parts I think error.

The Calvinist take would be that God predetermined all events of time by His choice or His will and everything works after that counsel and His will is immutable as is His Persons. When time is just perfect according to His will, God sovereignly gets the call out to the elect. As they are hearing the Gospel audibly (generally speaking) He mysteriously calls them internally to providentially maintain all events. When God comes and regenerates a person (period of time in between is unknown) he/she always comes to saving faith in accordance to His will. The very instance saving faith happens the person is justified and sealed for eternity. Sanctification begins and the person is preserved by God's grace the same way God saved them (mysteriously; don't test God and your faith prove vain), and ultimately when one is truly saved he/she will be glorified.

I disagree with the sentence I highlighted and underlined. Especially, I disagree with the word "internally". This is a major difference. I believe God operates outside of the man. Yes, the Holy Spirit is absolutely involved and must be. A man must hear the word of God which is spirit and life. But this is heard from the exterior, and not internally. Now, that said, if a man of his own free will permits, he can allow the word of God and thus the Holy Spirit to penetrate his heart.

Now, I will show several verses that I believe clearly show that God calls from the outside, and that the man must allow the word to penetrate or enter the heart.

Luke 8:5 A sower went out to sow his seed: and as he sowed, some fell by the way side; and it was trodden down, and the fowls of the air devoured it.

I have highlighted what I believe shows my position. In the parable of the sower, Jesus explained that the seed was the word of God. The same seed was sowed by the wayside, the ground with stones, the ground with thorns, and then the good ground. The ground represents the hearer, which Jesus clearly explains in the passage. It is the hearer that is shown to be responsible for the condition of the ground.

Luke 8:18 Take heed therefore how ye hear: for whosoever hath, to him shall be given; and whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken even that which he seemeth to have.

Notice that the wayside was trodden down. This shows this soil was hard. It was stepped on and pressed down. The seed could not penetrate this soil and so laid on the surface where the fowls could come and steal it away.

This is a person with a hard, impenitent heart. They do not want to hear and receive the word. Wanting to hold on to a sin is usually the problem here. They hear the word, and understand, but do not want to receive Christ, because they know Christ will tell them to give up the sin they love.

Now, notice the good ground.

Luke 8:15 But that on the good ground are they, which in an honest and good heart, having heard the word, keep it, and bring forth fruit with patience.

This is the best ground of the four grounds shown. It has been plowed deep. Stones and thorns have been removed. It is prepared to receive the word of God. The word easily penetrates and the seed takes root and springs to life.

But as I showed, Jesus says the hearer is responsible for the condition of the ground and whether it will receive the seed, the word of God.

And now, the verse I have shown many, many times.

Rev 3:20 Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.

This verse is so simple and straightforward, I have trouble believing anyone could not understand it.

First, where is Jesus to begin with? Is he on the inside or outside? This verse clearly shows he is on the outside of the sinner.

What does he do? He knocks and calls to the sinner on the inside. But where is he now? He is still on the outside.

Who must hear and open the door? The sinner. Jesus clearly places the responsibility of opening the door on the sinner. He will not enter unless the sinner willingly opens the door to him.

What does Jesus promise he will do if the sinner opens the door? He will come in.

Now where is Jesus? Now he is on the inside.

Do you see that? Jesus has been on the outside knocking and calling. He wants to come in and he makes that known. This is the calling of God. But the sinner is clearly held responsible for hearing this calling and then coming and opening the door to him. Only if the sinner opens the door will Jesus enter. Now, he is on the inside, and not before.

So, you see the Holy Spirit does not enter you and give you all the mechanics to complete the process of salvation. No, the Holy Spirit calls and knocks from the outside. The Holy Spirit convicts the man. But the man must open the door. And only if the sinner opens the door does the Holy Spirit enter the man. When the Holy Spirit enters, this is when regeneration occurs. This is when a man is born again and given everlasting life.

So, I cannot agree with doctrine #2 whatsoever, it is unscriptural. The scriptures show the Holy Spirit calls externally, outside the man. And the Holy Spirit does not perform "all events", a man is responsible to believe and receive the word of God (open the door).

You didn't give me enough information to understand doctrine #3.

 

[annsni]

Not quite. It's not the dictionary that states that...it is Scripture. The reformed position on regeneration clearly contradicts Scritpure.

Show me then the Biblical definition of "regeneration".

 

[webdog]

Do you have any Scripture that indicates that the regenerating work is equal to the sealing?

Ephesians 2:5 and Colossians 2:13 come to mind off the top of my head.

 

[webdog]

Show me then the Biblical definition of "regeneration".

Colossians 3:1-4 is a pretty good definition.

 

[annsni]

Ephesians 2:5 and Colossians 2:13 come to mind off the top of my head.

Ephesians 2:5 says "even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ— by grace you have been saved— "

Colossians 2:13 "And you, who were dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made alive together with him, having forgiven us all our trespasses,"

I don't see anything here saying regeneration is equal to the sealing. I DO see that we were dead and God made us alive. A dead person does not make themselves alive nor can they seek life. These are verses that very much support God's calling/work as opposed to man's calling/work.

 

[annsni]

Colossians 3:1-4 is a pretty good definition.

" If then you have been raised with Christ, seek the things that are above, where Christ is, seated at the right hand of God. Set your minds on things that are above, not on things that are on earth. For you have died, and your life is hidden with Christ in God. When Christ who is your life appears, then you also will appear with him in glory."

I don't see any definition of "regeneration" here. I see a believer - those who have already been raised with Christ. But how did they get there?

 

[webdog]

Ephesians 2:5 says "even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ— by grace you have been saved— "

Colossians 2:13 "And you, who were dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made alive together with him, having forgiven us all our trespasses,"

I don't see anything here saying regeneration is equal to the sealing. I DO see that we were dead and God made us alive. A dead person does not make themselves alive nor can they seek life. These are verses that very much support God's calling/work as opposed to man's calling/work.

Would it be safe to say that the one in Christ has been sealed? If so, those passages clearly show we have been made alive (regenerated ) with Christ...not prior or after...with. If we are in Christ, we have been sealed.

 

[webdog]

" If then you have been raised with Christ, seek the things that are above, where Christ is, seated at the right hand of God. Set your minds on things that are above, not on things that are on earth. For you have died, and your life is hidden with Christ in God. When Christ who is your life appears, then you also will appear with him in glory."

I don't see any definition of "regeneration" here. I see a believer - those who have already been raised with Christ. But how did they get there?

A regenerated person and a believer are one in the same. They got there by grace through faith.

 

[Winman]

Would it be safe to say that the one in Christ has been sealed? If so, those passages clearly show we have been made alive (regenerated ) with Christ...not prior or after...with. If we are in Christ, we have been sealed.

Good question. Do Calvinists believe the Holy Spirit can enter a man and regenerate him and then leave the man?

Heb 13:5 Let your conversation be without covetousness; and be content with such things as ye have: for he hath said, I will never leave thee, nor forsake thee.

 

[zrs6v4]

Good question. Do Calvinists believe the Holy Spirit can enter a man and regenerate him and then leave the man?

Heb 13:5 Let your conversation be without covetousness; and be content with such things as ye have: for he hath said, I will never leave thee, nor forsake thee.

No, the purpose of regeration to the Calvinist is to sovereignly do God's heart changing work. This isnt regeneration if God just leaves. I think Webdog's point is focused on the part where the new birth is In Christ. If one is united with Christ then it is by His blood and they are forgiven and sins are gone. Webdog is stating that if one is born again and his sins really remain (for that split second or however long) then he is united with Christ yet sins still remain.

Am I correct on your point or did I just make your point sound better ?

Here is an argument I have heard:

The difficulty with the Calvinist ordo has to do with the priority of regeneration (the new birth). Logically, the new birth (regeneration- the beginning of spiritual life) precedes justification in the Calvinist ordo just as it precedes faith (and the Bible is clear that justification is by faith). So logically speaking we have people receiving new life prior to justification. Since justification includes forgiveness and the removal of God's wrath, the Calvinist ordo results in the receiving of life logically prior to being forgiven and prior to the wrath of God being removed. A further difficulty comes from trying to place adoption in the Calvinist ordo. Do we place it at the new birth (regeneration)? If we place it at the new birth then we also have the person becoming a child of God (which I think must be part of regeneration) logically prior to being forgiven and justified.

 

[annsni]

Would it be safe to say that the one in Christ has been sealed? If so, those passages clearly show we have been made alive (regenerated ) with Christ...not prior or after...with. If we are in Christ, we have been sealed.

But it says nothing about the order of salvation. Yes, if we are in Christ, we have been sealed. Every Calvinist will agree with you 100%.

 

[annsni]

OK - Let me see if this is a good analogy - probably not but still. LOL

In many seeds, there is a chemical that prevents that seed from growing and that chemical must be removed from the seed in order for it to grow into what it is to become. That can take about 24-48 hours or so of the plant placed in a moist environment. Once that chemical is gone, the seed can then begin to do what it needs to do and grow.

I see what happens in salvation as the same sort of thing. The "chemical" in us needs to be removed by Christ's calling us - kind of an "opening our eyes" kind of thing. The Holy Spirit is not indwelt in us but we are given the ability to respond to Christ whereas without that "opening" or the removing of the "chemical" (scales over our eyes?), we cannot because we do not desire to do so. At that point, it IS man's "work" so to speak in responding to the call because now he's been given the ability to respond and in responding, we are saved and the Holy Spirit comes in to dwell in us.

So I don't see that God goes ahead and saves someone apart from their knowledge and then says "Oh, by the way...." or whatever. It is a work in an instant - God calls and opens man's heart to respond. Man responds and is saved. And they live happily ever after. The end.

 

[webdog]

But it says nothing about the order of salvation. Yes, if we are in Christ, we have been sealed. Every Calvinist will agree with you 100%.

...but it does. It specifically states we are made alive together with Christ. The order of regeneration happens together with Christ. That is the order, or rather regeneration is simultaneous with faith in Christ.

 

[webdog]

No, the purpose of regeration to the Calvinist is to sovereignly do God's heart changing work. This isnt regeneration if God just leaves. I think Webdog's point is focused on the part where the new birth is In Christ. If one is united with Christ then it is by His blood and they are forgiven and sins are gone. Webdog is stating that if one is born again and his sins really remain (for that split second or however long) then he is united with Christ yet sins still remain.

Am I correct on your point or did I just make your point sound better ?

Here is an argument I have heard:

The difficulty with the Calvinist ordo has to do with the priority of regeneration (the new birth). Logically, the new birth (regeneration- the beginning of spiritual life) precedes justification in the Calvinist ordo just as it precedes faith (and the Bible is clear that justification is by faith). So logically speaking we have people receiving new life prior to justification. Since justification includes forgiveness and the removal of God's wrath, the Calvinist ordo results in the receiving of life logically prior to being forgiven and prior to the wrath of God being removed. A further difficulty comes from trying to place adoption in the Calvinist ordo. Do we place it at the new birth (regeneration)? If we place it at the new birth then we also have the person becoming a child of God (which I think must be part of regeneration) logically prior to being forgiven and justified.

I think you did a good job

Fact is, if one passes from death to life...they have passed from death to life! If this occurs before faith, faith is rendered unnecessary to receive life.