Adam represented all men and Christ represented...who exactly?

[annsni]

...but it does. It specifically states we are made alive together with Christ. The order of regeneration happens together with Christ. That is the order, or rather regeneration is simultaneous with faith in Christ.

"with" does not connotate order that I can see in this passage. I don't understand how you can read that as a verse speaking of order.

 

[webdog]

"with" does not connotate order that I can see in this passage. I don't understand how you can read that as a verse speaking of order.

Interesting. If you go to the grocery store "with" your hubby, are you going to the store before or after he goes?

If a life is created with a sperm and egg...can it occur prior to the sperm and egg coming together? In the same way life (regeneration) occurs with faith in Christ.

 

[Winman]

I think you did a good job

Fact is, if one passes from death to life...they have passed from death to life! If this occurs before faith, faith is rendered unnecessary to receive life.

Exactly Webdog. If you are already made alive, then why do you need faith? Why do you need to repent? Why do you need to believe?

Calvinism places receiving life before you repent or believe. You cannot find a single scripture to support this, but you can find dozens that contradict this.

John 11:25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:

Jesus says here that if a man believes, even though he is dead, yet shall he live.

Faith is shown first, life is shown last.

 

[zrs6v4]

"There is none righteous, not even one; there is none who understands, there is none who seeks for God; All have turned aside, together they have become useless; There is none who does good, there is not even one. There throat is an open grave, with their tongues they keep decieving, whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness; their feet are swift to shed blood, destruction and misery are in their paths, and the path of peace they have not known. There is no fear of God before their eyes. Now we know that whatever the Law says, it speaks to those who are under the Law, so that every mouth may be closed and all the world become accountable before God..."
Romans 3:10-19

Do any of us not fit this profile that Paul describes?
If not then would we not be self-righteous?

Now if you dont think that God must do something to change people like Paul is explaining, then I think there is a problem.
I dont care if you call it regeneration or simply the Holy Spirit's work in our hearts. God must do something miraculous.

 

[Winman]

Now if you dont think that God must do something to change people like Paul is explaining, then I think there is a problem.
I dont care if you call it regeneration or simply the Holy Spirit's work in our hearts. God must do something miraculous.

Now if you could find a single verse to support that the Holy Spirit must regenerate a man internally before he has the ability to repent and believe, you would really have something there.

But I have shown you verses that shows that the Holy Spirit convicts a man externally, and that when a man repents and believes, that then, and only then does he receive the Holy Spirit.

Acts 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

What is shown first here, repentance or receiving the Holy Spirit?

I guess Peter the apostle under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit didn't understand sound doctrine as well as you.

All of your theories are nice, but they are not scriptural.

 

[zrs6v4]

Now if you could find a single verse to support that the Holy Spirit must regenerate a man internally before he has the ability to repent and believe, you would really have something there.

But I have shown you verses that shows that the Holy Spirit convicts a man externally, and that when a man repents and believes, that then, and only then does he receive the Holy Spirit.

Acts 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

What is shown first here, repentance or receiving the Holy Spirit?

I guess Peter the apostle under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit didn't understand sound doctrine as well as you.

All of your theories are nice, but they are not scriptural.

You still need to explain what Acts 2:39 means along with the Romans 3:10-20 I quoted. You also never replied to my Ephesians 1:1-14 and numerous Scripture Ive posted to you including Philipians 1:29. I also have tried to show you that your stuck and mistaken by the word regeneration and have taken it so far as to deny our need for the work of the Holy Spirit as He has worked in Lydia in Acts 16:14. I have also went through all of the contextual Scriptures in John showing our need for God's Spirit, but yet you still choose to ignore me. You have no problem pulling out other verses that have nothing to do with the argument but rather fit somewhere in the middle. If you really would like to be kind you can go ahead and explain what you think Paul was talking about in Romans 9 after doing the Scriptures I listed above.

No need for your last 2 comments.

 

[Winman]

You are deflecting from the question at hand. The question is simple.

Acts 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Which is shown first here, repentance or receiving the Holy Ghost? Why can't you just answer this very simple question?

How does verse 39 change a thing?

Acts 2:39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.

It says the Lord called them. I have never said a person is not called. I showed where Jesus knocks on your door and calls to you. But Jesus was on the outside. You have to open the door before he comes in.

And this is what Peter says too, he said they had to repent and believe on Jesus for the remission of sins, and if they did they would receive the Holy Ghost.

You just will not admit that God calls from the outside and unsaved man has the ability to hear and believe. But I have shown you many scriptures that say this.

John 11:25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:

Jesus said if a man believes, though he were dead, YET shall he live. The spiritually dead can believe. The devils can believe, and they are spiritually dead.

Jam 2:19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.

John 5:25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.

Jesus said the dead shall hear his voice. Jesus did not say the living. He knows the difference, and said exactly what he meant to say.

And there is not one verse in Ephesians (or in all of scripture for that matter) that shows a man is regenerated by the Holy Spirit to have the ability to hear and believe the word of God. It there is, then please post it.

 

[zrs6v4]

You are deflecting from the question at hand. The question is simple.

Acts 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Which is shown first here, repentance or receiving the Holy Ghost? Why can't you just answer this very simple question?

How does verse 39 change a thing?

Acts 2:39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.

It says the Lord called them. I have never said a person is not called. I showed where Jesus knocks on your door and calls to you. But Jesus was on the outside. You have to open the door before he comes in.

And this is what Peter says too, he said they had to repent and believe on Jesus for the remission of sins, and if they did they would receive the Holy Ghost.

You just will not admit that God calls from the outside and unsaved man has the ability to hear and believe. But I have shown you many scriptures that say this.

John 11:25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:

Jesus said if a man believes, though he were dead, YET shall he live. The spiritually dead can believe. The devils can believe, and they are spiritually dead.

Jam 2:19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.

John 5:25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.

Jesus said the dead shall hear his voice. Jesus did not say the living. He knows the difference, and said exactly what he meant to say.

And there is not one verse in Ephesians that shows a man is regenerated by the Holy Spirit to have the ability to hear and believe the word of God. It there is, then please post it.

I answered your question on post number 43. I gave you the answer from three different views.
1. They believed and recieved the Holy Spirit (sealing and regeneration)
2. or they were regenerated and then believed and then were sealed by the Holy Spirit
3. or they were taught/drawn/called by the Holy Spirit, then believed then were regenerate and sealed.

The reason I quoted Acts 2:39 because the very context of it is that all those who believed were called by God. They were elect and the very reason they believed was because God was calling them internally to salvation.

Acts 2:38 "Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will recieve the gift of the Holy Spirit. for the promise is for you and your children and all who are far off, as many as the Lord God will call to Himself."

The promise is offered to everyone who will repent and believe. Everyone who repents and believes are those who are being called by God effectually to Himself.

The dead that hear Jesus voice live because they are elect. Thats the context of John 5:25. All who hear live, do you want me to make another post with the flow and theme of John?

Now please explain my verses to me starting with Romans 3:10-20

 

[Winman]

What? Am I supposed to pick the answer I like best? The question was simple. Either repentance came first or receiving the Spirit. You know the answer.

The reason I quoted Acts 2:39 because the very context of it is that all those who believed were called by God. They were elect and the very reason they believed was because God was calling them internally to salvation.

This is completely unscriptural. Not everybody who is called believes.

Matt 22:2 The kingdom of heaven is like unto a certain king, which made a marriage for his son,
3 And sent forth his servants to call them that were bidden to the wedding: and they would not come.

Not everybody who is called believes and comes to Christ, Jesus said so himself. And not everybody who is called is elect.

Matt 22:14 For many are called, but few are chosen.

Elect means chosen. Many are called, but few chosen.

 

[zrs6v4]

What? Am I supposed to pick the answer I like best? The question was simple. Either repentance came first or receiving the Spirit. You know the answer.

No, I gave you the best possibilites to the answer. I already told you my answer. Nobody believes unless they are chosen, drawn, and taught by God and those who are WILL believe. I believe that the Spirit must do a work in a man for him to believe. When the person repents/believes he will be sealed by the Holy Spirit.

I also tried showing you this verse

Philipians 1:29 "For to you is has been granted for Christ's sake, not only to believe in Him, but also to suffer for His sake."

This is completely unscriptural. Not everybody who is called believes.

1. Spiritually dead people are in bondage to sin and don’t seek God, understand, and don’t do good. (John 3) (Romans 3:10-20)
2. Spiritual rebirth is granted by Jesus to as many as He chooses and He raises them as the dead are raised. John 5:21
3. The people who are spiritually dead and hear the voice of Jesus (internal call) will have Spiritual life. Not everyone hears, and this means that not everyone has Spiritual life because not everyone dead in sin hears the call from God. But if they do hear and believe, then they have life. John 5:25
4. Jesus’ sheep (elect) hear His voice and there are sheep in the future who will hear and will live because we know that they are dead and God will draw them, teach them, and call them and they will Live. John 10
5. All the people that are given to the Son by the Father will come to the Son. Or in other words, all who are drawn by the Father are going to have eternal Life. This is just what you refuted. John 6:37-40
6. Nobody comes to the Son unless they are drawn by the Father and as we just saw in the last statement that those who are drawn will have life. So all these who are drawn (effectually) will come and be saved. John 6:44
7. Everyone who comes to the Son has heard and learned from the Father. How? Id say through the work of the Holy Spirit. Everyone who has heard from the Father, comes to the Son, and those who come get eternal life. It is an unavoidable thing, praise God. John 6:45
8. People who don’t hear from God do not know God. They are not drawn. They are not elect. They will die in their sins unless God shows mercy and comes to them as He does the sheep. John 8:47
9. Don’t try to tell me that John 12:32 means that everyone who ever lived is drawn. That is impossible unless we deny all I have just said and become universalists. We already know that whoever hears from God (is taught), whoever is draw, and whoever is the chosen will come to the Son and will have life for certain. If everyone is drawn and everyone hears then you must say that everyone has eternal life. John said that Jesus said this to show what kind of death he was going to die (purchase the elect all those chosen by the Father to be given to the Son).


This does not have to imply that people must be regenerated before they have faith, that isn’t my point. My point is that God has predestined a group of people to be vessels of God’s grace (the elect or sheep). Those people are going to be effectually called by God’s power in some way they cannot resist at some point in their lives. You can take that as you will. I personally think it is a mighty work of God’s Spirit. This does not take away from mans responsibility. I am just trying to show you that even though men are chosen they still believe, receive gifts, receive the Holy Spirit, are born again, and all of those blessings of salvation. I would say that it is impossible to say that God teaches everyone, draws everyone, chooses everyone, and calls everyone in the same sense that John is speaking of.

Now think about Acts 2:39

Matt 22:2 The kingdom of heaven is like unto a certain king, which made a marriage for his son,
3 And sent forth his servants to call them that were bidden to the wedding: and they would not come.
Not everybody who is called believes and comes to Christ, Jesus said so himself. And not everybody who is called is elect.

Matt 22:14 For many are called, but few are chosen.

Your right that not everyone that hears the gospel in this life is elect by God. This is exactly why I know that there are 2 types of callings.

1. our preaching the Gospel
2. the Spirit working in hearts in accordance to God's will on those He chooses to bring to Life

Not everyone who is called by man is elect, but everyone who is called by God (effectual calling) is elect. Those are God's choice that is why they are elected.

Revelation 22:17 "The Spirit and the Bride say "Come"..."

there are two different callings and God's is infallible and very purposeful

 

[Winman]

1. Spiritually dead people are in bondage to sin and don’t seek God, understand, and don’t do good. (John 3) (Romans 3:10-20)

That's not what the scriptures say.

Gen 4:26 And to Seth, to him also there was born a son; and he called his name Enos: then began men to call upon the name of the LORD.

This was speaking of men before the flood of Noah when men were very wicked.

Prov 1:28 Then shall they call upon me, but I will not answer; they shall seek me early, but they shall not find me:

This shows wicked men both calling and seeking the Lord. The reason he does not answer them is because they refused to repent of their sins. Nevertheless, these men called on and sought God.

God does not seem to believe that unsaved men are unable to repent and turn to him and call upon him.

Deut 29:25 When thou shalt beget children, and children's children, and ye shall have remained long in the land, and shall corrupt yourselves, and make a graven image, or the likeness of any thing, and shall do evil in the sight of the LORD thy God, to provoke him to anger:
26 I call heaven and earth to witness against you this day, that ye shall soon utterly perish from off the land whereunto ye go over Jordan to possess it; ye shall not prolong your days upon it, but shall utterly be destroyed.
27 And the LORD shall scatter you among the nations, and ye shall be left few in number among the heathen, whither the LORD shall lead you.
28 And there ye shall serve gods, the work of men's hands, wood and stone, which neither see, nor hear, nor eat, nor smell.
29 But if from thence thou shalt seek the LORD thy God, thou shalt find him, if thou seek him with all thy heart and with all thy soul.

Here the Lord is speaking to the Israelites and says they will corrupt themselves (how can you corrupt someone who is already utterly corrupt?) making graven images and worshipping false gods.

But the Lord says if they turn from these sins and seek him with all their heart and soul that they will be found of him. So, the Lord does not believe they are unable to seek him.

2 Chron 7:14 If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land.

These Jews were not saved, because God tells them if they humble themselves, pray, seek him, and turn from their wicked ways, that then He will hear them and forgive their sins. He doesn't regenerate them, they have to repent and turn from their wickedness before he will hear them and forgive them. The responsibility is their's.

These are just a few of the many dozens of scriptures that show unsaved men have the ability to turn from sin and seek and call upon God.

 

[zrs6v4]

Winman,

I first would like to say you can't ignore a particular Scripture by what you think is a refuting Scripture. We both know God's word is infallible and inherent which means there are no contradictions. At the end of my post I will remind you to please explain what Paul means in Romans 3:10-20.

Gen 4:26 And to Seth, to him also there was born a son; and he called his name Enos: then began men to call upon the name of the LORD.

Why did these men call upon the name of the Lord? what provoked them? This verse does not say that men can or cant call upon God in and of themselves, but all it says is that they did.

Now, I chose a larger section of Proverbs 1 for contextual reasons-

Prov 1:22-30 "How long, O naive ones, will you love being simple-minded? And scoffers delight themselves in scoffing And fools hate knowledge? Turn to my reproof, Behold, I will pour out my spirit on you; I will make my words known to you. Because I called and you refused, I stretched out my hand and noone paid attention; And you neglect all my counsel and did not want my reproof; I will also laugh at your calamity; I will mock when your dread comes, When your dread comes like a storm And your calamity comes like a whirlwind, When distress and anguish come upon you. Then they will call on me and I will not answer; They will seek me dilligently but will not find me, Because they hated knowledge And did not choose the fear of the Lord.

I disagree that these men sought God in the right heart. When evil men seek God it is never from the right motives and they hate God's ways. Seeking God must be a selfless act, so for an autonomous man (all mankind) to seek God completely out of his nature is not going to happen. Many times people seek God for selfish benefit such as wanting to go to heaven but not wanting anything to do with Jesus. This is a contradiction to the way of salvation because to get to heaven you must go through Jesus. Going through Him means trust, love for Him and His ways, hatred of sin and self, etc... The Gospel of Mathew is a prime example. This is why many choose Jesus for a year and run away in the storm because their motives were self centered.

God's promises here are the same yesterday, today, and forever and so is the fools answer (our answer). (In the Proverbs passage)God said, How long will you ignore me and live in sin? Turn to Me and I will greatly bless you and make My words known to you. I called and you refused, I reached out to you and you ignored Me. You hated My ways, and I will laugh when trouble comes onto you because it is then and only then when you care to acknowledge Me (selfish, wrong motives). I will not answer because you dont care about Me and only want Me for my benefits. You dont turn to Me and dont ever choose the fear of the Lord, which is the beginning of knowledge and Wisdom.
Notice that these people are just as I described. God holds His arms out all day long with the gospel to careless and disobedient people, and nobody listens because all of humanity is fools and hates God's ways. So with that said, people never search for God unless God does something that changes them which is the reason why they decide to turn to Him in the first place. Compare this to Romans 3:10-20 and ask yourself who Paul is speaking about? Us and everyone before God showed up to deliver us.

You said "God does not seem to believe that unsaved men are unable to repent and turn to him and call upon him."

I beg to differ, God is used to holding His arms out all day everyday to everyone and nobody caring about Him. When they do hear about Him they would rather eat vomit than to come to Him. Loving His ways and desiring good, is a whole different list of impossibles. God loves these people and longs for them to turn, but they never do. This is the reason why they will die in their sin and be judged, because they have not known the Savior and spit in God's face.

29 But if from thence thou shalt seek the LORD thy God, thou shalt find him, if thou seek him with all thy heart and with all thy soul.

Here again is the same promise of God that does not state that people in and of themselves seek God. It says if they seek God with all of their heart and soul, then they will find Him and I believe this is true. Now again, why would a person God calls a fool seek God? I believe I was a fool for the first 22 years of my life and then God showed up and revealed that to me. The problem is that I still feel like a fool, and that is the very reason I still need the Savior.

Your question: Here the Lord is speaking to the Israelites and says they will corrupt themselves (how can you corrupt someone who is already utterly corrupt?) making graven images and worshiping false gods.

I am not really sure, but I do know that a fool who doesn't turn to God will become more hardened and a greater degree of foolishness. We either increase in righteousness or increase in wickedness. In a sense a fool is an idol worshipper because he does not worship God. We are created to worship and if it isn't God, then it is something else. There is no in between.

2 Chron 7:14 If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land.

Addressed to Israelites, but I suppose that we can learn from this. I would agree with this verse that if a sinner humbles Himself and seeks God with all of His heart that He will be saved by God's grace. You said, "He doesn't regenerate them, they have to repent and turn from their wickedness before he will hear them and forgive them. The responsibility is their's." Where does this verse say that the Holy Spirit does or doesn't have to work in a person for them to repent with all their heart? I agree it is our responisbility, but I know for certain we need help from God for this to be possible.

You are making assumptions in these texts that aren't intended to answer our discussion at hand. As students of the Bible we must let it say what it says and no more. Don't get me wrong, nobody is perfect here, but with all of our hearts we must let the text speak in context.

Now tell me about Romans 3:10-20

 

[Winman]

I beg to differ, God is used to holding His arms out all day everyday to everyone and nobody caring about Him. When they do hear about Him they would rather eat vomit than to come to Him. Loving His ways and desiring good, is a whole different list of impossibles. God loves these people and longs for them to turn, but they never do. This is the reason why they will die in their sin and be judged, because they have not known the Savior and spit in God's face.

Have you heard the parable of the prodigal son?

Luke 15:10 Likewise, I say unto you, there is joy in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner that repenteth.
11 And he said, A certain man had two sons:
12 And the younger of them said to his father, Father, give me the portion of goods that falleth to me. And he divided unto them his living.
13 And not many days after the younger son gathered all together, and took his journey into a far country, and there wasted his substance with riotous living.
14 And when he had spent all, there arose a mighty famine in that land; and he began to be in want.
15 And he went and joined himself to a citizen of that country; and he sent him into his fields to feed swine.
16 And he would fain have filled his belly with the husks that the swine did eat: and no man gave unto him.
17 And when he came to himself, he said, How many hired servants of my father's have bread enough and to spare, and I perish with hunger!
18 I will arise and go to my father, and will say unto him, Father, I have sinned against heaven, and before thee,
19 And am no more worthy to be called thy son: make me as one of thy hired servants.
20 And he arose, and came to his father. But when he was yet a great way off, his father saw him, and had compassion, and ran, and fell on his neck, and kissed him.
21 And the son said unto him, Father, I have sinned against heaven, and in thy sight, and am no more worthy to be called thy son.
22 But the father said to his servants, Bring forth the best robe, and put it on him; and put a ring on his hand, and shoes on his feet:
23 And bring hither the fatted calf, and kill it; and let us eat, and be merry:
24 For this my son was dead, and is alive again; he was lost, and is found. And they began to be merry.
25 Now his elder son was in the field: and as he came and drew nigh to the house, he heard musick and dancing.
26 And he called one of the servants, and asked what these things meant.
27 And he said unto him, Thy brother is come; and thy father hath killed the fatted calf, because he hath received him safe and sound. 28 And he was angry, and would not go in: therefore came his father out, and intreated him.
29 And he answering said to his father, Lo, these many years do I serve thee, neither transgressed I at any time thy commandment: and yet thou never gavest me a kid, that I might make merry with my friends:
30 But as soon as this thy son was come, which hath devoured thy living with harlots, thou hast killed for him the fatted calf.
31 And he said unto him, Son, thou art ever with me, and all that I have is thine.
32 It was meet that we should make merry, and be glad: for this thy brother was dead, and is alive again; and was lost, and is found.

This parable contradicts everything you said. First, Jesus said there is joy in heaven when a sinner repents. That alone contradicts Calvinism, because Calvinism teaches that a sinner cannot repent unless he is regenerated. But he is no longer a sinner once he is regenerated.

We see this young man on his own, of his own free will, realize the terrible condition he is in and desire to go back to his father. He goes to the father and freely admits that he has been a terrible sinner and asks for mercy. That is repentance right there. He also expresses faith in this action. He believed his father to be good and merciful, or else he would not have dared return to him.

So, the scriptures contradict what you believe.

 

[zrs6v4]

Have you heard the parable of the prodigal son?

Yes I have.

This parable contradicts everything you said. First, Jesus said there is joy in heaven when a sinner repents. That alone contradicts Calvinism, because Calvinism teaches that a sinner cannot repent unless he is regenerated. But he is no longer a sinner once he is regenerated.

-The parable does not contradict a thing I have said.
-Of course there is joy in heaven when a sinner turns to Christ.
-That absolutely in no possible way contradicts Calvinism.
-This parable is not intended to teach us about God's sovereign work, but simply shows a true repentance and joy of the Father when a sinner repents. To use this as an argument against Calvinism (or the work of the Holy Spirit in Salvation) is not a valid argument.
- You simply are making way to many assumptions that aren't there.

We see this young man on his own, of his own free will, realize the terrible condition he is in and desire to go back to his father.

That is exactly right and that is all we see, so in this case we ought to leave it there. Again the purpose isn't to show that "nobody can come to the Son unless he is drawn". The purpose is to show a repentance of an underserving son with great humility. We also see a loving Father extremely joyful that His son wisely came back for mercy and the Father is glad to receive him.

He goes to the father and freely admits that he has been a terrible sinner and asks for mercy. That is repentance right there.

I would absolutely agree and also highlight the son's humility and the spot where it says he came to himself and realized what he had done and was doing.

He also expresses faith in this action. He believed his father to be good and merciful, or else he would not have dared return to him.

I agree that he trusted and saw his father's mercy.

So, the scriptures contradict what you believe.

do they now?

If you wanted to try to use this parable against Calvinism then the Calvinist would simply say, "Why did the prodigal son come to himself?" Is it a possibility that The Holy Spirit revealed some things to Him that caused him to realize? This is why I don't think this parable is a good refute against either side of the argument.

VERY IMPORTANT

Why do you completely ignore every single Scripture I try to get you to explain with your own words and just throw out more and more verses that really don't have to do with what we are talking about. I don't mind talking about Scripture, but I feel like I am the only one listening to the others points.

Please tell me what you think of Philippians 1:29 and Romans 3:10-20

 

[Winman]

If you wanted to try to use this parable against Calvinism then the Calvinist would simply say, "Why did the prodigal son come to himself?" Is it a possibility that The Holy Spirit revealed some things to Him that caused him to realize? This is why I don't think this parable is a good refute against either side of the argument.

Have you ever asked yourself why the regeneration of the Holy Spirit for a man to have the ability to come to God in faith is never shown in scripture? It doesn't show the father performing any sort of work on his son here. It shows everything else, but it doesn't show that here or anywhere else in scripture. Now, if I were a Calvinist that would bother me, and bother me a lot. I have to see it in scripture before I believe it.

Now, I don't for one second and have never said that God through the Holy Spirit does not act first and influence a man. I agree with you that man on his own without the influence of God would continuously corrupt himself more and more and never come to God. But as I have shown, this is an external influence on the unsaved man, not an internal regeneration as you believe.

But I think that is shown in this story. The young man already knew of his father. And we know of our heavenly Father through the scriptures. Without the scriptures, neither you, or I, or anyone else would know who the true God is, we would not know about Jesus who died for us, and we would not know about the offer of salvation if a man comes to Christ. None of us ever came to God unless we knew of God first, how could we?

This story shows he had knowledge of his father. It also shows the misery and pain his sin brought upon him. This is the conviction of the Holy Spirit.

You see, you cannot find one verse in the Bible that says the Holy Spirit regenerates a man to believe. Jesus said when the Holy Spirit comes he will "reprove" the world. Than means to convict, or correct, to cause a person to feel ashamed.

John 16:8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:

The Holy Spirit reproves a man, it speaks to the man and convicts him of his sins. Even unsaved people have the ability to be ashamed, to deny that is to deny reality.

And we see this young man convicted. This is when he "came to himself". He realized that his sin and foolishness was destroying his life. At one time he had been a fine young man with good food, clothes, and the love of his father. But his sin had separated him from his father. He was worse than the swine that he fed. His life was ruined and he knew it.

And it was when he came to realize his sin that he repented. He decided to turn back to his father in faith. He knew his father to be a good and loving man. He was so ashamed he would have been happy just to be a servant.

We see something else in this story I believe. We see the foreknowledge of God. It says the father saw him coming from afar off. His father saw him coming before he actually got there. The scriptures say we are elect according to the foreknowledge of God. God can see who will come to him and this is who he elects.

So, he finally did come to his father, and his father was better and more gracious than he expected. This shows God's great love. No matter how terrible a sinner we might be, he rejoices if we will just repent and come to him.

So, we see all of this, but we do not see the father performing a work like regeneration on the boy. The boy came back in filthy rags, he came back as a sinner. He did not receive the "best robe" of righteousness until he got to his father. This is when he received the Holy Spirit and the righteousness of Christ was imputed to him. Do you see that?

Think about it.

 

[Winman]

Why do you completely ignore every single Scripture I try to get you to explain with your own words and just throw out more and more verses that really don't have to do with what we are talking about. I don't mind talking about Scripture, but I feel like I am the only one listening to the others points.

Please tell me what you think of Philippians 1:29 and Romans 3:10-20

Alright, I going to say something that will probably offend you greatly. That is not my motive at all. The reason I do not answer these scriptures are that they are what I call "pet verses". They are carefully selected verses you have been taught. Now, here is the offensive part, all cults have pet verses. I have talked to many people in my life from many different religions and doctrines. I spent probably 5 years sharing scripture with a good Catholic friend of mine before he realized their doctrine was wrong. He had lots of pet verses. I spent six months witnessing to three Mormons once. I brought an old man to tears, not a very fun thing, but he realized he had held a false doctrine for nearly 80 years. But oh, we went round and round. Every time I showed them where their doctrine was wrong, they had one of those pet verses they felt showed them right. I spent months talking to a Jehovah's Witness. They are very tough to get through to, not only do they have pet verses, but they have been brainwashed to believe anyone who is not a JW is from Satan. Don't laugh, they really believe that.

And it is the same with Calvinism. They have about 20 select pet verses they show over and over and over. They are almost always pulled out of context, and they are almost always misinterpreted.

Now, somebody will come back and say I can't say somebody interpreted the scriptures wrong. I have "my" interpretation, they have "theirs". Well, in some cases that might be true. But when people tell you words like "all men" really don't mean all men, or that "whosoever will" really doesn't mean whosoever will, well, if they want to delude themselves I guess that is their right, but I am not going to compromise and say it is just a difference of opinion.

OK, now I will address your pet verses (sorry).

Phil 1:29 For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake;

The problem with this is you are taking it out of context. Paul is not discussing salvation and faith whatsoever. He is discussing persecution that all true believers will have to endure. Christ was given to us by our Father to believe on, but it is also given to us to suffer for his sake. That is what it is saying. It is not teaching us how we receive faith.

Go back and read the whole passage and you will see that salvation and how we get faith is not being discussed.

And besides this, the scriptures already tell us how we get faith.

Rom 10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

Faith comes by hearing and believing the word of God. It is really that simple. When you hear God's word, you have a choice. You can choose to believe it as truth, or you can choose to believe it a lie. It's really that simple.

Do you believe a whale swallowed Jonah and spit him up three days later? I do. And I would confess to anyone that that is an incredible thing to believe. But I believe the scriptures that God is supernatural and that he could easily command a whale to be waiting for Jonah to be thrown overboard and swallow him.

So, that's all there is to it. I believe the scriptures are truth.

Now Romans.

Rom 3:10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
13 Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips:
14 Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness:
15 Their feet are swift to shed blood:
16 Destruction and misery are in their ways:
17 And the way of peace have they not known:
18 There is no fear of God before their eyes.
19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.
20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

This is actually easy to explain, but I doubt you will believe me. Paul is quoting from Psalms 14 here. If you ever read the Psalms (and you should), you will see that God basically sees two kinds of people. The wicked and the righteous. You will see it over and over again. Paul was speaking to Jews in Rome, and they knew these scriptures. They understood Paul was speaking of the wicked. But they also knew not all men are called wicked by God. Those who sought God and trusted in him were the righteous. And remember, people did not have the Holy Spirit (except a few) in the OT.

Psalms 14:1 [To the chief Musician, A Psalm of David.] The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good.
2 The LORD looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, and seek God.
3 They are all gone aside, they are all together become filthy: there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
4 Have all the workers of iniquity no knowledge? who eat up my people as they eat bread, and call not upon the LORD.
5 There were they in great fear: for God is in the generation of the righteous.
6 Ye have shamed the counsel of the poor, because the LORD is his refuge.
7 Oh that the salvation of Israel were come out of Zion! when the LORD bringeth back the captivity of his people, Jacob shall rejoice, and Israel shall be glad.

Do you see that not everybody is wicked in this Psalm? In verse 4 God speaks of "my people", in verse 5 he says "the generation of the righteous", in verse 6 he speaks of those who's "refuge" is the Lord, and in verse 7 he speaks of "his people".

Do you see that? God was contrasting the wicked versus the righteous in this Psalm. The Jews Paul was speaking to knew this Psalm, and they knew that Paul was not saying 100% of men are absolutely so depraved they never seek God.

But you see, nobody has ever showed you this. This is a "pet verse" or passage. It has been misinterpreted to prove a presupposition. If you read Romans, Paul speaks of other men who seek glory and eternal life.

Rom 2:7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:

Rom 2:10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:

Do you see now that not all men are absolutely wicked? Look in your Bible, I did not make these verses up.

I hope I explained what you wanted to know. If not, ask and I will try to answer. I don't think for a second I know and understand the scriptures perfectly, but I will try to explain as best I can.

 

[zrs6v4]

Now, I don't for one second and have never said that God through the Holy Spirit does not act first and influence a man.

But the Holy Spirit has nothing to do with our hearts in the matter in your view correct? At least until after we choose Him?

 

[zrs6v4]

.Phil 1:29 For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake;

The problem with this is you are taking it out of context. Paul is not discussing salvation and faith whatsoever. He is discussing persecution that all true believers will have to endure. Christ was given to us by our Father to believe on, but it is also given to us to suffer for his sake. That is what it is saying. It is not teaching us how we receive faith.And besides this, the scriptures already tell us how we get faith.
Rom 10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

Are you sure Paul isn't saying that we are gifted with belief and suffering? Paul says that believing and suffering were gifts. You cant avoid the fact that believing is a gift. Also Romans 12:3 says that God grants a measure of faith to each of His children. Yes faith comes from God through the Spirit's work through the Gospel. Faith comes from God, just as all good things do.

Now Romans.
Rom 3:10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
13 Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips:
14 Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness:
15 Their feet are swift to shed blood:
16 Destruction and misery are in their ways:
17 And the way of peace have they not known:
18 There is no fear of God before their eyes.
19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.
20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

Paul is quoting from Psalms 14 here. If you ever read the Psalms (and you should), you will see that God basically sees two kinds of people. The wicked and the righteous. You will see it over and over again. Paul was speaking to Jews in Rome, and they knew these scriptures. They understood Paul was speaking of the wicked. But they also knew not all men are called wicked by God. Those who sought God and trusted in him were the righteous. And remember, people did not have the Holy Spirit (except a few) in the OT.

yes from Psalm 14. I have read Psalms. yes there are two types of people. Yes in faith we are declared righteous. This is not our righteousness but the righteousness of Christ given to us because nobody is righteous as you know. The context of that verse is to sinners. This means everyone because all sin. Verse 9 and verse 19 say that the Law speaks to those under the Law, so that every mouth may be closed and all the world (sinners) may become accountable before God. So Paul is clearly showing that Psalm 14 applies to everyone which is his point as he is condemning everyone.

Do you see that not everybody is wicked in this Psalm? In verse 4 God speaks of "my people", in verse 5 he says "the generation of the righteous", in verse 6 he speaks of those who's "refuge" is the Lord, and in verse 7 he speaks of "his people". Do you see that? God was contrasting the wicked versus the righteous in this Psalm. The Jews Paul was speaking to knew this Psalm, and they knew that Paul was not saying 100% of men are absolutely so depraved they never seek God.

You are right that the Psalmist refers to the wicked as those who aren't of God and the righteous as those who are. But Paul is taking this Psalm and applying it to everyone because all are guilty and wicked. The Psalmist are very open to their depraved hearts before God, and I dont think they see themselves as superior in goodness, but many times they are crushed and suffering for their inward spiritual struggle between their evil nature and God's Spirit. I think Paul's very point was to show that man is at war with God in his own heart and that he in and of himself is in bondage.

But you see, nobody has ever showed you this.

I perceive you are a prophet sir :laugh: sorry, I am aware of it

This is a "pet verse" or passage. It has been misinterpreted to prove a presupposition. If you read Romans, Paul speaks of other men who seek glory and eternal life.
Rom 2:7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
Rom 2:10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:

Paul is showing how all are guilty in chapter 2:1. We cannot say there are those type of people from chapter 1 without realizing that we ourselves were once in their shoes. Those people who Paul is speaking of in 2:7 and 2:10 are not good people and do not escape judgment and wrath. Their doing good is realizing that they are condemned like everyone else, equal with them, and turn to Christ for eternal life. The people who "do good" and "seek for glory" are those who were and are defined in 3:10-20 and have turned from their ways (repentance) to trust in Christ because they have realized how evil they are and how bad they need a Savior. If they were to think that they were generally good and will need a Savior to cover a few sins in their life, then they wouldnt need that much help. But I think it is the people who realize that their entire life before they came to Christ was one big sin that are the ones who really need a Savior. No man seeks God until they realize that they are completely wicked and fit in with the rest of mankind. If a person doesnt think they are as bad as the wicked then they are self-righteous. The reason anyone seeks God is because the Spirit is the one who comes at some point in their life and shows them a thing or two about how bad they really are (conviction). He does this in light of God's righteousness and the judgment they have coming for their complete wickedness. Man is evil at the core.

I hope I explained what you wanted to know. If not, ask and I will try to answer. I don't think for a second I know and understand the scriptures perfectly, but I will try to explain as best I can.

I appreciate your time and effort.

 

[Winman]

But the Holy Spirit has nothing to do with our hearts in the matter in your view correct? At least until after we choose Him?

That's not true at all. We hear with our ears, but we believe with our heart.

Rom 10:10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

I got saved when I was 11 years old in church. The pastor preached on hell. Boy, that really got my attention. He described all the torments of hell and told how once a man dies he is forever without hope. After tens of thousands of years of torment, he still has eternity ahead of him.

Now, I'm telling you, I was terrified. I had always believed in God, my observations of the world around me convinced me there was a God, I could see intelligence behind it and I knew it didn't happen by accident. And although I didn't come from a religious family, I had been to church a few times as a boy and heard of Jesus. I believed him to be God's son.

But I had never considered myself a terrible sinner worthy of hell. I didn't think I was perfect, I knew I had lied and done a few bad things like fighting with my brothers, but nothing worthy of hell in my opinion.

But the preacher that day explained that all sin, even one little lie separates us from God and condemns us to hell. I knew I was in a terrible fix. Then he explained how Jesus died for my sins, and paid my penalty for me, and told how that if I were to trust in him, all my sins could be forgiven. He then invited anyone who wanted to trust Christ to come down and he would be shown from the Bible.

You know, I was in a large Baptist church for the first time that morning, a neighbor had brought me to church. I didn't know anybody there. But I didn't care. I practically jumped out of my seat and ran down there. I wanted to be saved, and I did not want to wait one more second. And when I got there they showed me again how I was a sinner and the wages of sin is death. They showed me how Jesus paid for my sins and asked if I wanted to receive Jesus as my saviour. I said yes and kneeled right there and prayed and confessed to Jesus I was a sinner. I told him I believed he was the Son of God and died for me. I told him I wanted to receive him as my Saviour and asked him to come into my heart.

And, this is not scriptural, but I felt him come into me. I really did. And I can still feel him there. We are not supposed to trust our feelings, we know we are saved by the word of God, but I haved sensed his presence ever since.

Now, I don't understand it, it is spiritual, but God spoke to me through his scriptures and a great preacher that day. That message came in my ears, but went right to my heart. And I was never the same. My father died last February and I was speaking to my older brother. I had tried to get my Dad saved many times. He once came to a revival meeting and even went down at the invitation. When he came back to the pew I asked him if he had asked Jesus to save him. He said, "I think I did that already when I was a boy". Now, that did not give me a lot of assurance, but that's all I have. My Dad didn't like church or religion. In fact, I think that was the only time I ever saw him in church. He didn't like to talk about religion at all.

But talking to my older brother he said something that startled me. He said, "Dad said you had a religious experience when you were a boy". I had never heard this before. But my brother said, "Yes, Dad used to tell me you had a religious experience when you were young". I didn't know my brother had conversations with my Dad about me like this. But even my Dad knew I came home differently that day from church. I was different.

What Calvinism does is exclude the word of God from salvation by saying the Holy Spirit regenerates you to believe. That is not God's method. God uses the word of God. The word of God can penetrate to the heart.

Heb 4:12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

The word of God is alive and powerful. The word of God pierces to the heart and convicts a man. The Word of God is Jesus himself.

Rev 19:13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.

When you listen to the scriptures, you are listening to Jesus himself speaking to you. Jesus said the dead can hear his voice, and they that hear shall live.

John 5:25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.

Did Jesus say the living shall hear his voice here? No. He said the dead. You are not regenerated and made alive to be able to hear Jesus, Jesus said the dead can hear his voice. And they that hear, that is, those who will believe Jesus's words and trust him will be made alive.

You saw how the prodigal boy came back to his father in filthy rags. He was still a sinner, he was not regenerated. It was when he came to his father that his father called for the "best robe" to be put on him. This is when he was regenerated. This is when he was washed by the Holy Spirit and given life, and righteousness was imputed to him.

But he didn't come back all cleaned up. He was filthy from his sin and from living with the pigs when he came. The unregenerate can hear, the unregenerate can believe, and the unregenerate can come to Jesus.

 

[Winman]

Are you sure Paul isn't saying that we are gifted with belief and suffering? Paul says that believing and suffering were gifts. You cant avoid the fact that believing is a gift. Also Romans 12:3 says that God grants a measure of faith to each of His children. Yes faith comes from God through the Spirit's work through the Gospel. Faith comes from God, just as all good things do.

I believe faith is a gift, but not in the way you do. You believe faith is like a supernatural force that God gives a man, but that is not what the scriptures teach. Look up the words faith and trust in a good concordance. You will see the same exact word is used for trusting in God as is used in trusting in a weapon to protect you in battle.

Psa 44:6 For I will not trust in my bow, neither shall my sword save me.

Psa 9:10 And they that know thy name will put their trust in thee: for thou, LORD, hast not forsaken them that seek thee.

Look up the word trust in both these verses in a good concordance. You will see they are the exact same word with the exact same definition.

Faith or trust is not some mystical, magical, supernatural force. Trust simply means to depend upon, to rely upon, to lean on, to cast one's self upon.

When a skydiver jumps out of an airplane, he is trusting the parachute. That is faith. He is completely depending on the parachute to get him to ground safely.

In salvation, to trust Christ means to cast yourself upon him, and depend upon him only to save you. It is a committment. It is placing your soul in his hands and relying upon him to save you.

But faith is a gift in that without the scriptures you would not know of Jesus and therefore could not possibly trust him.

Rom 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?

Whosoever calls on Jesus for forgiveness of their sins will be saved. That is placing the saving of your soul in his hands and depending on him to save you.

But notice the part I highlighted, "how shall they believe on whom they have not heard". I could have never trusted Christ if I never heard of him. And how did I hear of him? Through the word of God, the scriptures, and a good preacher who preached from the word of God that day.

So, it is absolutely a gift from God. If God did not give us the scriptures we would all be hopelessly lost without a way to find him. We would be in total darkness. We would not know of Jesus and therefore could not trust him.

But faith itself is an ability all people have. It is not faith that saves you. It is Jesus that saves you. But you have to come to Jesus and place your trust in him for him to do so.

Matt 21:14 And the blind and the lame came to him in the temple; and he healed them.

This is an incredible verse if you really think about it. It says the blind and lame came to Jesus. The blind cannot see, but they managed to find a way to come to him. The lame cannot walk, but they found a way to get to the temple where Jesus was.

And why did they come? Obviously they had heard of Jesus and how he was healing people. They heard how good and merciful he was and turned no one away. And hope rose in their hearts. They had faith. They believed if they could just find a way to come to Jesus, he would heal them too.

But you see, they weren't regenerated, they were still blind and lame when they came. And the faith that caused them to come to Jesus didn't heal them either. But when they did come to Jesus and ask him to heal them, placing their dependence upon him, Jesus healed them. So faith is not some magical force. Faith doesn't save you or heal you. Jesus heals you and gives you everlasting life. He is the one with the power, we have nothing.