Adam's Death and Person

[JonShaff]

In a thread that is now closed, we discussed the realities concerning the narrative in Genesis 1-3.

I brought up what Paul said concerning Adam and Christ and the nature of the Resurrection and said I would bring in more context to show Adam was alive physically, but not spiritually. Another aspect of that was to show Adam's death was physical.

This is the passage I want to focus on for a second...

1 Corinthians 15:21-22 For since death came through a man, the resurrection of the dead also came through a man.
For just as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive.

Paul says physical death came through man. Not Spiritual death.

Context sheds more light...

1 Corinthians 15:26 The last enemy to be eliminated is death.

Physical death.

Then Paul answers the question how are they raised and what Kind of Body will they get?

It's my understanding that when Paul speaks of Body--he means entire being...body, soul, and spirit.

1 Thessalonians 5:23 Now may the God of peace himself make you completely holy and may your spirit and soul and body be kept entirely blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.


Romans 12:1 Therefore I exhort you, brothers and sisters, by the mercies of God, to present your bodies as a sacrifice – alive, holy, and pleasing to God – which is your reasonable service.

So upon the Resurrection of the dead, we will receive what Christ is...a glorified person in Body Soul and Spirit.

1 John 3:2 Dear friends, we are God’s children now, and what we will be has not yet been revealed. We know that whenever it is revealed we will be like him, because we will see him just as he is.

So, we must see what Paul says about that...

1 Corinthians 15:44-49 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.
The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven.
As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.
And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.

Let me cut to the chase, everyone can read for themselves...

Adam was given a natural body, soul, spirit. In Christ through the Resurrection, we receive a glorified body, soul, and Spirit.

Look at Vs. 49!

Adam's image was not simply a physical body. His IMAGE would have to mean body, soul and spirit. We took on the same image he had and then we will take on the same image Christ has...a glorified body, soul, and spirit. Adam's image was natural and earthly. Yes, God made him physically alive and gave him characteristics of God, making Adam only in the image of God to a certain degree. And we see here we will bear the image of Christ. A spiritually alive person as Christ is!!!

I must continue...

1 Corinthians 15:54-57 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?
The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.
But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

He's talking physical death here.

Paul even says "I'm in danger of dying daily" so if there was no resurrection my ministry is not worth dying for.

 

[37818]

It's my understanding that when Paul speaks of Body--he means entire being...body, soul, and spirit.

1 Thessalonians 5:23 Now may the God of peace himself make you completely holy and may your spirit and soul and body be kept entirely blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

<snip>

Two questions. First how do you conclude that by "body" he is not speaking of a physcial body of the resurrection? The second, why do you suppose by "body" he is must referring to body, soul and spirit to mean the "body?" Now I have no disagreement that the resurrected person is made up of their body, soul (person) and spirit. So your argument does not seem to make sense to me.

Adam's body was alive by the soul and spirit through blood. Christ's resurrected body by was made alive by the Holy Spirit.

 

[JonShaff]

Two questions. First how do you conclude that by "body" he is not speaking of a physcial body of the resurrection?

Yes, he is talking about a physical body.

The second, why do you suppose by "body" he is must referring to body, soul and spirit to mean the "body?"

Because our soul and body need redeeming as well...when does that happen?

Paul says we will take on the Image of the Heavenly. This goes beyond simply meaning "body."

 

[MB]

Yes, he is talking about a physical body.


Because our soul and body need redeeming as well...when does that happen?

Paul says we will take on the Image of the Heavenly. This goes beyond simply meaning "body."

I agree,I believe what he is talking about here is a perfect body as heavenly. Meaning there is no defects as in our current physical bodies. No sin effects. absolutely perfect.
MB

 

[37818]

Because our soul and body need redeeming as well...when does that happen?

Our soul when we are born again, and our body when we receive our promised adoption (1 John 3:2; Romans 8:23).

Paul says we will take on the Image of the Heavenly. This goes beyond simply meaning "body."

Agreed.

 

[Dave G]

Jon,

I think it prudent to dovetail what it is to be "dead in trespasses and sins" into your thread here.
If we, as believers, concentrate solely on Genesis 3 and those Scriptures that pertain to physical death, I believe that we are only dealing with part of what really happened in the Fall and to mankind as a race, since then.

I refer to passages like Romans chapters 1-3, John 3:18-20, and many others...such as what is found in the Psalms and Proverbs.

What really was the nature of Adam's "death", and what Scriptures shed light on what happened at ( what I see as ) more than one level to us, as a race?
Physical death seems the most obvious, and is easily addressed by God's word, as I see it.



May God bless you greatly, sir.

 

[The Biblicist]

Paul says physical death came through man. Not Spiritual death.



Physical death.

Then Paul answers the question how are they raised and what Kind of Body will they get?

It's my understanding that when Paul speaks of Body--he means entire being...body, soul, and spirit.

So upon the Resurrection of the dead, we will receive what Christ is...a glorified person in Body Soul and Spirit.



1 Corinthians 15:44-49 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.
The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven.
As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.
And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.

Let me cut to the chase, everyone can read for themselves...

Adam was given a natural body, soul, spirit. In Christ through the Resurrection, we receive a glorified body, soul, and Spirit.

Look at Vs. 49!

Adam's image was not simply a physical body. His IMAGE would have to mean body, soul and spirit. We took on the same image he had and then we will take on the same image Christ has...a glorified body, soul, and spirit. Adam's image was natural and earthly. Yes, God made him physically alive and gave him characteristics of God, making Adam only in the image of God to a certain degree. And we see here we will bear the image of Christ. A spiritually alive person as Christ is!!!

I must continue...

1 Corinthians 15:54-57 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?
The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.
But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

He's talking physical death here.

Simply unbelievable!!!!!! There is so much error here, where does one even start to correct this mess? Error produces multiple errors.

First, you say there is no relationship between spiritual death and physical death as you demand "death" in Romans 5:12 that entered the world by one man due to one sin which was passed to all mankind is merely and only physical death.

That means that PHYSICAL death is the only consequence of sin and condemnation spoken about in Romans 5:13-19 because that is the only kind of death Paul describes to be the consequence of judgement upon sin is physical death because that is the only death first introduced which is continud to be referred to in verses 13-19.

So, this interpretation of "death" in Romans 5:12 excludes not merely spiritual death, but the second death to be inclusive in that "death." That interpretation is absolutely cultic and so far reaching that it turns Biblical soteriology not only upside down but totally repudiates the very foundations of Biblical soteriology and is more akin to SDA and JW soteriology.

Jon, if you deny that "spiritual death" and "second death" are not inclusive in the "death" of Romans 5:12 you have begun steps toward cultic Christianity. Why? Because it is that "death" in v. 12 is the ONLY grounds for condemnation for sin in verses 13-19 - the ONLY grounds. It is the only stated consequences for condemnation of sin.

If, you continue to contend that "death' in Romans 5:12 is only physical death, I for one, will drop out of this conversation altogether as that is so absurd and antibiblical in nature that it can only lead to more error and cultic types of Christianity.

 

[JonShaff]

Simply unbelievable!!!!!! There is so much error here, where does one even start to correct this mess? Error produces multiple errors.

First, you say there is no relationship between spiritual death and physical death as you demand "death" in Romans 5:12 that entered the world by one man due to one sin which was passed to all mankind is merely and only physical death.

That means that PHYSICAL death is the only consequence of sin and condemnation spoken about in Romans 5:13-19 because that is the only kind of death Paul describes to be the consequence of judgement upon sin is physical death because that is the only death first introduced which is continud to be referred to in verses 13-19.

So, this interpretation of "death" in Romans 5:12 excludes not merely spiritual death, but the second death to be inclusive in that "death." That interpretation is absolutely cultic and so far reaching that it turns Biblical soteriology not only upside down but totally repudiates the very foundations of Biblical soteriology and is more akin to SDA and JW soteriology.

Jon, if you deny that "spiritual death" and "second death" are not inclusive in the "death" of Romans 5:12 you have begun steps toward cultic Christianity. Why? Because it is that "death" in v. 12 is the ONLY grounds for condemnation for sin in verses 13-19 - the ONLY grounds. It is the only stated consequences for condemnation of sin.

If, you continue to contend that "death' in Romans 5:12 is only physical death, I for one, will drop out of this conversation altogether as that is so absurd and antibiblical in nature that it can only lead to more error and cultic types of Christianity.

I think we can have a discussion without flipping out. I hope. Just show me that Romans 5:12 is Spiritual death and I will concede.

 

[JonShaff]

And for the record...the Bible is clear...

John 3:18, 36 (KJV) He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

 

[37818]

I think we can have a discussion without flipping out. I hope. Just show me that Romans 5:12 is Spiritual death and I will concede.

". . . (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law. Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come. . . ." -- Romans 5:13-14 . . . .
The context is talking about physical death.

 

[Aaron]

Lol.

Adam.

Created by a special act of God on the 6th Day. Whereas all other things having life God called upon waters and the earth to bring forth, God actively gathered the dust and formed the man, then breathed the breath of life into his nostrils.

This is not said of any other living creature.

There is a marked difference between the life in an animal and the life in a man. Adam was given the spirit of life, and he became a living soul. So Adam is created and He has life. But he is not born of God. He is not a partaker of the divine nature.

He made Eve from Adam's rib. She gets her life and body from Adam.

That doesn't mean they don't have spiritual life. It's just not divine.

They were good, and innocent, and God walked and talked with them.

They were made good, but they were not made incorruptible. Again, they are not born God, neither are they partakers of the divine nature as Christians are.

So something happens that corrupts them, and as a corrupt tree cannot bring forth good fruit, they sin, and they are now dead in trespass and sin (which is what people mean when they say they died spiritually.)

In Redemption, though, we are not restored to Adam's first estate. We're born God. We are partakers of the divine nature, and as such, cannot be corrupted, or die.

 

[The Biblicist]

And for the record...the Bible is clear...

John 3:18, 36 (KJV) He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

Romans 5:12 says that "death" entered the world. It does not say PARTS of death entered. It does not says PARTS of death was passed down. The Second death is death. Spiritual deadness is death. Material separation from the immaterial aspect is death. All three are interrelated and inclusive in "death."

Your interpretation of Romans 5:12 denies spiritual deadness and Second death are consequences of sin and therefore denies any just basis for any human to be brought under either as the very same "death" in Romans 5:12 is the condemnation due to sin - due to sin. Just as Ephesians 2:1 is" dead IN TRESSPASSES and SINS. Just as the Second death is due to sin. Just as physical death is due to sin. Your theory denies any relationship of "spiritual death" and Second death with sin and thus have no just basis for human conditions.

You dont understand the Biblical implications of death - ultimately is SEPARATION. Physical death is separation of material from immaterial. The Second death is separation of the whole man from God in Gehenna. Spiritual death is a STATE OF SPIRITUAL separation from God, thus the STATE OF SIN. This state described in Ephesians 2:1-3, 12-13, 4:18-19.

 

[JonShaff]

Romans 5:12 says that "death" entered the world. It does not say PARTS of death entered. It does not says PARTS of death was passed down. The Second death is death. Spiritual deadness is death. Material separation from the immaterial aspect is death. All three are interrelated and inclusive in "death."

Your interpretation of Romans 5:12 denies spiritual deadness and Second death are consequences of sin and therefore denies any just basis for any human to be brought under either as the very same "death" in Romans 5:12 is the condemnation due to sin - due to sin. Just as Ephesians 2:1 is" dead IN TRESSPASSES and SINS. Just as the Second death is due to sin. Just as physical death is due to sin. Your theory denies any relationship of "spiritual death" and Second death with sin and thus have no just basis for human conditions.

You dont understand the Biblical implications of death - ultimately is SEPARATION. Physical death is separation of material from immaterial. The Second death is separation of the whole man from God in Gehenna. Spiritual death is a STATE OF SPIRITUAL separation from God, thus the STATE OF SIN. This state described in Ephesians 2:1-3, 12-13, 4:18-19.

Question, how was Paul "alive" once, apart from the Law?

 

[The Biblicist]

Question, how was Paul "alive" once, apart from the Law?

He wasn't EXCEPT in his own Jewish self-righteous mind which was controlled by His Jewish view of self-justification by law keeping. He is talking about before the Holy Spirit used the tenth commandment to SLAY him because prior to that he thought he was "blameless" according to the Law (Philip. 3:4-6). Like every self-righteous Jew, he thought he kept the law and therefore could not fall under the condemnation of the law. But Jesus corrected this kind of thinking in Matthew 5:21-46 demonstrating that the Law's sphere is not merely EXTERNAL as the self-right Saul of Tarsus was taught to believe.

Your interpretation of Romans 5:12 has DESTROYED an just basis for anyone to be "dead" spiritually or to be justly cast into Gehenna.

 

[JonShaff]

Your interpretation of Romans 5:12 has DESTROYED an just basis for anyone to be "dead" spiritually or to be justly cast into Gehenna.

The context says physical death. That IS proper exegesis, brother.

Maybe it's a semantics thing, but I definitely agree we are separated from God, both positionally and relationally. Positionally, we are unrighteous and condemned to death. Relationally we are children of wrath. And if we die physically, we continue in that state and eventually we will be cast into the lake of fire for all eternity.

Through Christ's obedience on the cross and His blood and resurrection, we have peace with God and forgiveness of sins.

When a person is born, they are alive physically and subjected to death. Their soul, body, spirit is alive physically but devoid of the life of Christ. They are led by external temptations and by a spirit, soul, body that is about human life and not God life. And they spend their life in sin, heaping to themselves judgment and wrath. Romans 1-3.

So, a person has to be born a second time. And in doing so, God brings that person to life Spiritually. Before that, Yes they were alienated from the life of God.

So how does this relate to Adam's situation? He was devoid of the inner life of God, although God's presence was external to some degree. He too became separated from God because of his sin and the consequence was physical death. His spirit man didn't die that day. He experienced relational separation caused by the guilt and shame from sin. He brought condemnation upon himself because of sin. And those who stay lifeless at their physical death will experience the second death.

There are only two types of death.
Physical death and the second death.

 

[The Biblicist]

The context says physical death. That IS proper exegesis, brother.

There are only two types of death.
Physical death and the second death.

No! You simply do not understand the scope of death. Being "dead IN TRESSPASSES AND SINS" is what Jesus means by "BEING evil" (Mt.12:32). It is a STATE or CONDITION of spiritual death. It is a CONDITION of "BEING alienated from the life of God." It is the condition of "BEING passed all feeling" (Eph. 4:19). It is the CONDITION of "BEING given over unto.....all uncleaness." It is the condition of BEING "darkened" in state of mind. It is the condition of being "children of disobedience." It is the condition of BEING "by NATURE the children of wrath." This is NOT a PHYSICAL but a SPIRITUAL CONDITION. Every man, woman and child is BORN INTO THIS WORLD IN THAT SPIRITUAL CONDITION - BEING DEAD in tresspasses and sins and that is not PHYSICAL DEATH AND THAT IS NOT SECOND DEATH. Your view denies even the need for new birth and denies any just grounds for second death.

In direct contrast to this SPIRITUAL CONDITION of being "dead IN TRESSPASSES AND SINS" is the spiritual condition of Adam prior to the fall. Prior to the fall there was no physical death. There was no spiritual condition of being evil, being alienated from the life of God, being children of disobedience, being past feeling, being in a darkened state or being given over to all uncleaness.

Adam was created differently than all other biological living things. Adam received his "lives" (Heb. plural) DIRECTLY FROM GOD in union with the life of God. He was created in an "UPRIGHT" mutable spiritual condition, he was created being mutably righteous, being mutably holy, being mutably enlightened in mind, being by nature a mutable son of God (Lk. 2:38). He is the only human being that TRANSITIONED between BEING UPRIGHT unto BEING EVIL by nature, being a child of disobedience, being alienated from the life of God, being dead in tresspasses and sins.

Do you believe Ephesians 2:1-3, 4:18-19 described Adam at the moment he sinned? Your theory would logically have to deny that he BECAME "dead in tresspasses and sins" because that would demand prior to being "dead" in that manner he was not in a condition of deadness in tresspasses and sins that in a LIVING CONDITION in exact opposite terms of being evil, being alienated from the life of God, being past feeling, being in a darkened state of mind, being given over unto all uncleaness.

Your view totally repudiates the very nature of the fall and thus repudiates the very spiritual nature of death and salvation. It is utter cultic.

 

[The Biblicist]

The context says physical death. That IS proper exegesis, brother.

There are only two types of death.
Physical death and the second death.

No! Being "DEAD in tresspasses and sins" is not physical death and it is not the Second death because those thus "dead in tresspasses and sins" were not physically dead and not in the lake of fire. It is a SPIRITUAL STATE or CONDITION OF THEIR IMMATERIAL NATURE (SPIRITUAL) of being opposite to the state of spiritual life.

Being "DEAD in tresspasses and sins" is a SPIRITUAL STATE/CONDITION of the immaterial part of man which is SPIRITUAL not materialistic/physical.

Being "DEAD in tresspasses and sins" PRECEDES physical and second death which are the consequences of this SPIRITUAL CONDITION.

The only human being that came into existence in a IMMATERIAL/SPIRITUAL condition OPPOSITE to being "dead in tresspasses and sins" was Adam. The opposite state of being SPIRITUALLY "dead in tresspasses and sins" "being past feeling" "being evil" by nature the children of disobedience and wrath is being SPIRITUALLY in union with God (mutable) being "upright" etc. as Adam received his LIVES (Heb. plural) directly from the very being of God.

The only human being that has TRANSITIONED between an IMMATERIAL/SPIRITUAL state of mutable conditional LIFE unto a SPIRITUAL/IMMATERIAL state of "dead in tresspasses and sins" is Adam. It is that transition point that justifies us being physically born into this world at the moment of conception in a SPIRITUAL CONDITION of tresspasses and sins, as children of disobedience, children of wrath, children of Satan (Jn. 8:44-45) BEING EVIL, being passed feeling, being "given unto all...uncleaness" and these are not PHYSICAL attributes but SPIRITUAL. This is not physical or second death but SPIRITUAL DEATH as a state and condition.

 

[The Biblicist]

And for the record...the Bible is clear...

condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.....and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

No child of Adam is born into this world in a state of belief but in a state of unbelief. When you claim that sin only brought into this world PHYSICAL and SECOND DEATH then you have repudiated any just cause for the DEPRAVED CONDITION OF THE IMMATERIAL MAN (spirit, heart, mind, will) which is being SPIRITUAL "DEAD in tresspasses and sins" and "being evil" by nature and none of this is speaking of the state or condition of his PHYSICAL body or PHYSICAL or SECOND death. This is speaking of the IMMATERIAL/SPIRITUAL state of man.

The IMMATERIAL aspect of human nature is SPIRITUAL and that is what is "alienated from the life of God" and is a spiritual condition of "being evil" "being past feeling" and "given over unto...all uncleaness" etc.

Satan works "in" his children of disobedience/wrath as much as God works "in" his children (Eph. 2:2; 4:1). Man is created with a "spirit and soul" and his "spirit" is his capacity to commune and operate in the spirit world and lost people can commune with Satan, and some more than others can grow in that spirituality.

When you claim Death only refers to physical and Second death you have denied any SPIRITUAL CONDITION of the human nature and thus any SPIRITUAL NATURE that needs to be brought into union with God's spirit. If not SPIRITUAL NATURE/CONDITION/STATE exists in unregenerated man then the only salvation needed is PHYSICAL salvation from physical death and from a future physical lake of fire.

If you admit unregnerate man as a SPIRITUAL NATURE that is "alienated from the life of God" that is being "DEAD in tresspasses and sins" because tresspasses and sins is what "alienated from the life of God" or separated them SPIRITUALLY from God (Isa.59:1-2) and the only possible POINT of this alienation is Romans 5:12 and that one sin by that one man thus inclusive of "death" that entered into this world at that point in time within human nature, not merely physical and secon death but SPIRITUAL death.

 

[JonShaff]

No child of Adam is born into this world in a state of belief but in a state of unbelief. When you claim that sin only brought into this world PHYSICAL and SECOND DEATH then you have repudiated any just cause for the DEPRAVED CONDITION OF THE IMMATERIAL MAN (spirit, heart, mind, will) which is being SPIRITUAL "DEAD in tresspasses and sins" and "being evil" by nature and none of this is speaking of the state or condition of his PHYSICAL body or PHYSICAL or SECOND death. This is speaking of the IMMATERIAL/SPIRITUAL state of man.

The IMMATERIAL aspect of human nature is SPIRITUAL and that is what is "alienated from the life of God" and is a spiritual condition of "being evil" "being past feeling" and "given over unto...all uncleaness" etc.

Satan works "in" his children of disobedience/wrath as much as God works "in" his children (Eph. 2:2; 4:1). Man is created with a "spirit and soul" and his "spirit" is his capacity to commune and operate in the spirit world and lost people can commune with Satan, and some more than others can grow in that spirituality.

When you claim Death only refers to physical and Second death you have denied any SPIRITUAL CONDITION of the human nature and thus any SPIRITUAL NATURE that needs to be brought into union with God's spirit. If not SPIRITUAL NATURE/CONDITION/STATE exists in unregenerated man then the only salvation needed is PHYSICAL salvation from physical death and from a future physical lake of fire.

If you admit unregnerate man as a SPIRITUAL NATURE that is "alienated from the life of God" that is being "DEAD in tresspasses and sins" because tresspasses and sins is what "alienated from the life of God" or separated them SPIRITUALLY from God (Isa.59:1-2) and the only possible POINT of this alienation is Romans 5:12 and that one sin by that one man thus inclusive of "death" that entered into this world at that point in time within human nature, not merely physical and secon death but SPIRITUAL death.

Did Jesus die spiritually?

 

[37818]

Paul says physical death came through man. Not Spiritual death.

It was because of the spiritual death of Adam that they were removed from the garden (Genesis 3:22) to prevent them from living forever in a sinful fallen state.