ADD/ADHD: Disease or Croc?

[Pastor Larry]

I think a lot of this is just common sense. Isn't it amazing how kids who grow up in stable, two parent homes, with consistent, loving discipline have ADD/ADHD a lot less than those who don't?

You want an expert? Read Ed Welch, Blame It On the Brain. He talks directly about ADD/ADHD. He points out how we are treating symptoms, not causes. He points out how we are using medicines we do not even know exactly what they are doing and especially the long term affects of it.

The problem seems too often to be that parents don't want to be parents. But let's face it. Kids won't raise themselves very well.

 

[North Carolina Tentmaker]

Back to the topic. . .

I agree with your first post rbell, a very good assessment. Relating to what Claudia T said

when I was a kid I actually had to go outside and sit down and think for a bit...

I just finished a fantastic book called “Last Child in the Woods: Saving Our Children from Nature-Deficit Disorder.”

The author, Richard Louv, has some very interesting studies tracking lack of unstructured outdoor playtime and tendency toward ADD. I would recommend anyone who works with children or has children of their own read this. For many chronic ADD kids some outdoor playtime is more effective than medication. The keys to this playtime being successful are that it needs to be unstructured and exploratory in nature. Let children discover the creation and the many awesome facets of it.

One think Louv pointed out is that our children are well educated about the environment but have no experience in it. Most kids today know more about endangered species in the rainforest than they do about the plants and animals in their own back yards.

 

[rbell]

You want an expert? Read Ed Welch, Blame It On the Brain. He talks directly about ADD/ADHD. He points out how we are treating symptoms, not causes. He points out how we are using medicines we do not even know exactly what they are doing and especially the long term affects of it.

Agreed. 30-year pharmacological studies of psychotropic meds might lead us to some disturbing conclusions...and they might not. A crapshoot. But it's a crapshoot with a brain medication. Could you imagine if there are severe reactions/contraindications/side effects? It'll make the Vioxx scandal look like the playground.

But let's face it. Kids won't raise themselves very well.

Sounds like someone knows about Lord of the Flies.

 

[annsni]

All I can say is that I have 4 children. My oldest is 16 and was diagnosed with ADD (not hyperactivity but inattention) in 1st grade. My solution was to pull her out of school and homeschool her through 8th grade. When she re-entered school in 9th grade, she had new skills in how to deal with her ADD AND she was more mature to be able to handle it. She's a student now that is doing very well and has learned to manage her attention well enough that she can now function. We never medicated her and I worked very hard over those 6 years to assist her in this.

I TOTALLY agree with the great post in the beginning (was it rbell's? I can't see it now and I don't have time to look back) that so much is being CAUSED by parents and the kids' environment. I was talking to a teacher the other day who says the bane of her existence is the videos in the cars. WHY can't kids sit in a car for a short trip - or heck, why not even a long trip - without watching TV the entire time?? My kids are limited on TV and I've driven 22 hours in the car with a 4 and 6 year old and we never had to take videos to entertain them! We even go away for 2 weeks on the boat where the entire time we watch ONE DVD as a family - usually when it's a rainy night. My kids do just fine with no TV.

I don't think we need to have degrees and such to know that ADD and ADHD can be a real diagnosis but that it's also way over diagnosed and much of what IS diagnosed could have been prevented in the upbringing of the children. However, they DO exist as an illness/chemical imbalance/whatever causes it.

 

[Scarlett O.]

Attention Deficit Disorder and Attention Deficit Hyperactive Disorder are real disorders.

They are overdiagnosed, as rbell said. I have said that for many years. But nonetheless, to dismiss them or to claim that drugs, in some cases, cannot help them is not right.

Jesus saves....and Jesus heals, but Jesus also expects us to use common sense and see the doctor.

No, not all ADD/ADHD children need medications. There are a host of modifications/accomodations that can be made. I make them all of the time in the classroom, with great success.

I have seen first hand in the classroom what has happened to the MTV generation. I call them the MTV generation because their brains have adapted to short, bright, loud, and explosive bits of information. Gameboys, music videos, constant text messaging, and coupled with all of the unnatural substances feed to the chickens and cows that we get many of our food products from have made these children think differently.

rbell had a great summary of what has happened in our society with these children.

I do take exception with the "laziness of the education system". I do know rbell's negative opinions about public education, so I won't get into a shouting match with him over that.

However, we as teachers and prinicipals do NOT prefer to drug them over disciplining them. And with the true ADD/ADHD child, it's not about discipline. With the child whose parents or doctors use that as an excuse, it is about the discipline. Teachers hate those drugs. In fact, if anyone is listening,....we can't drug them. We are not diagnosticians. We find out that they have been diagnosed after mother comes to us and says, "I took Sammy to the doctor because of conduct grade and the doctor says he is ADHD. Here is his medicine.....please see that he takes it."

I have taught for a quarter of a century and not one time...ever....in the case of the couple of dozen ADD/ADHD kids that I have taught has any doctor ever contacted me to ask me what is going on with the child's grades or behavior.

And once the child is labeled by the pediatrician.....there is nothing that we can do, except abide by the commands of the doctor or get sued! Literally....sued!

If there is any laziness, it's on the part of the medical community. It's much easier for the doctor to say, "ADD/ADHD......Here's the drugs", than to call the teacher, run tests, or in general, make a committment to find our what's really wrong. I always ask the mothers how long they were in the doctor's office before he made the diagnosis. Usually about 30 minutes. When I ask them what he based that diagnosis on they say, "Well, I told the doctor that Sammy made a "D" in your reading class and he has NEVER made a "D" before!" or "I told the doctor that Sammy just can't seem to sit still anymore."

I have seen children who literally have a legimate case of ADD or ADHD. It's frustrating for the child and I would much rather make use of modifications such as extended time on tests, preferential seating, peer tutoring, breaking his assignments up into parts, or allowing him to stand up and walk quietly around the room if necessary. I use these modifications anyway, whether they are drugged or not.

Out of the couple of dozen kids that have been drugged because of ADD/ADHD.....I have seen the medications work, but only twice. For those children, the medication was a Godsend. For the others, it either did no good or only created further problems. Especially for those who, in my professional opinion, did not have ADD/ADHD to begin with.

ADD/ADHD is real. It's not some tool of the devil used as ploy of the secular world to make adults lazier and children more disruptive. It's not a tool by which to decide who is the better set of parents, christians parents or non-christian parents.

And it certainly isn't grounds for claiming moral superiority if you spank your child and believe that's why your child doesn't have it.

It's real. It's overdiagnosed, but it's real.

 

[tragic_pizza]

I think a lot of this is just common sense. Isn't it amazing how kids who grow up in stable, two parent homes, with consistent, loving discipline have ADD/ADHD a lot less than those who don't?

You want an expert? Read Ed Welch, Blame It On the Brain. He talks directly about ADD/ADHD. He points out how we are treating symptoms, not causes. He points out how we are using medicines we do not even know exactly what they are doing and especially the long term affects of it.

The problem seems too often to be that parents don't want to be parents. But let's face it. Kids won't raise themselves very well.

Anything Ed Welch writes is immediately, and decisively, authoritative in my book. His "When Peopel Are Big And God Is Small" was a life-changing book for me.

 

[rbell]

Scarlett

Good catch. I overgeneralized regarding the education system.

I guess I would say, "there are a few educators out there causing a majority of the issues." Most take a more tempered response IMO. But a few--and I know of a couple in our area and one in my hometown--fancy themselves ADHD experts and manage to convince quite a few parents to get their children evaluated, then medicated.

But because there are many professionals available to diagnose and drug children too quickly (IMO), even a few rogue elements can cause a lot of kids to be taken down a road they shouldn't...at least not at first.

God bless teachers and their difficult task at hand. I couldn't do it...not the early grades.

Well, OK, I could...as long as I had meds. God didn't wire me to be an elementary ed teacher. Secondary? Fine. But not the "ankle biters." (God love'em.)

 

[Scarlett O.]

You're right, rbell, it is diagnosed too quickly. I think that sums up the problem with diagnosis of this disorder.

 

[tinytim]

It's greatly overdigangosed, IMO, and here are some factors (different factors for different kids...and in no particular order):
1. Bad parenting/lack of consistent, relationship-based, loving discipline.
2. The difference in boys and girls. Boys are rowdier, and the overwhelming number of ADHD "cases" are young males.
3. Overstimulization...an MD friend of mine believes that our brains, through media today, learn to process images faster than what is healthy...and they do it a lot. The rise in ADHD cases does mirror the increase in media exposure (TV, web, gaming, etc.) to children (and adults too).
4. Poor nutrition...not enough good stuff (veggies, vitamins) and too much bad stuff (processed food, sugar, caffeine).
5. (esp. boys) The lack of a consistent male figure in the home.
6. Laziness in our education system. It's easier to drug them than discipline them...not to mention the lack of home support in many cases. They also don't take into account in some instances differing learning styles (I'm seeing some progress here at least on the local level).
7. Overexposure of the crisis by professionals with a vested interest (psychiatrists, pharmaceutical companies, professional educators, etc.)

Now...having said that, I do believe that this can exist. I have met kids with such an amazing inability to focus that it was crippling. But I believe that psychotropic meds should be the last resort after rest, nutrition, discipline (if needed), curtailment of overstimuli (greatly reduce media time) exercise, and creative teaching methods (not all folks learn the same way) have been explored.

But that number left would be a fraction of what it is now.

Good post rbell...
But let me tell you some of my experience.

As you most of you all know, I have 3 sons... my youngest has epilepsy, that was first caused by scar tissue on his brain. (he had had the scar tissue since birth) He had brain surgery to correct it. It helped some, but not completely.. he still takes anywhere from 10 to 20 seizures a day.

He is also ADHD, as is my oldest son.
My middle son, was tested for it, but doesn't have it.

When my first son was diagnosed in 1st grade, his attention greatly approved when the drs put him on ritalin. He is a good kid, sometimes over active, just like all boys, but overall, he is a good kid, that struggles with paying attention.

2 yrs later my middle son went to school... He is just rowdy... no ADD/ADHD, but he also has some learning disabilities. He was exposed to Carbon Monoxide when he was 6 weeks old, and we almost lost him... It was from a kerosene heater at a neighbors house.

Anyway, he is not ADD.

Along comes my youngest son. And this is before he had his first seizure. He starts Kindergarten.... and is failing!!!! FAiling Kindergarten!!!! Knowing the signs of ADHD from our first son, we have him tested... His teacher was strongly opposed to giving meds for ADD, but our pediatrician, and pscychologist both agreed he was ADHD, and also put him on Ritalin. After the first week in class, his teacher told us she was a believer in meds then.... It was a complete 180 turn with him... He passed Kindergarten with flying colors.

A year later the scar tissue increases and he starts having seizures.. His seizures mask his ADHD, but when they are controlled, his ADHD acts up again.

After 2 of my sons were diagnosed it the Dr asked us which parent has ADD/ADHD... it can be hereditary.

After looking over the symptoms it was decided that I also have ADD.
My mind flips channels in real life....

But somehow through the years I have learned to control mine... Growing up, ADD was not yet diagnosed...

But I see my ADD as a blessing... I can multi-task better than most men, (almost as good as a woman) and can have 6 things going at one time, and can now accomplish them all.... with training ADD can be a blessing from God....
As Mark Lowery says, the rest of you all are just boring... you need to speed up.

I can exist on 4 hours sleep, get up, and go at it again.
I don't think I could have survived youth ministry without ADD.

And when other youth teachers were getting so frustrated with children not listening, I could handle them.... why? because I know what it is like to multi-task..
Little Johnny might not appear to be paying attention, but after class can tell you everything I said.... I had one deacon tell me he had never seen anything like my class... to him it was chaotic, but to the kids it was creative learning, and the proof is in the pudding, my youth knew what I taught them.... I am not the type to lecture... but I get the job done.

This is what I am teaching my sons.... It is a blessing, learn to deal with it, and use it to glorify God....

Yes they are taking meds. But only while they learn to control the disease.
And yes they are disciplined.. I have had strangers come up to us in public, commenting on how well mannered my boys are... and they have said, "you can tell they were raised in a Christian home"

I am proud of my boys....
Yes, they can get into trouble, especially at church... but that is where they spend most of their time.

But they are just normal boys that happen to need extra help paying attention.

BTW, I heard on the Today show a couple months ago that now some scientists believe ADHD can be linked to plastics in bottles, like baby bottle liners...(playtex) soda and water bottles, etc...

Something about the plastic molecules can breakdown and mess with the nerve endings in the nervous system...

To me it made sense... most ADHD cases came after soda companies started using plastic instead of glass, and how many of us were raised on Playtex bottles that used those plastic liners?

I was, as was my sons...

 

[xdisciplex]

I wonder what DIDG and SFIC would say about ADD/ADHD. :type:

 

[Ed Edwards]

Simple. Until someone, that is, someone with professional knowledge about and experience in the identification and treatment of ADD/ADHD, offers insight, then all of the posts are (a) opinion, and/or (b) things posters culled from the internet (and we know we can aaaalways beleive things we read on the Interwebs, right?)

At best, then, this is a waste of time. Nothing wrong with that, that's what Internet discussion boards are for. At worst, it will turn into another "there ain't no such thing as mental illness" argument thread, causing more harm than good.

So: hooey.

Amen, Brother TragicL_pizza.
I second your 'hooey' and raise you a pbttttttttttttttttttt!

In Feb 1971 i was identified & treated for 'depression'.
In 2007 what was then called 'depression' and had one
treatment (lithium) is known as:

1. ADD
2. ADHD
3. Clinical depression
4. Bipolar syndrome
5. multi-personality syndrome

not to mention a currently untreateable:

6. non-specific depression

 

[Ed Edwards]

I wonder what DIDG and SFIC would say about ADD/ADHD. :type:

It says in the Bible that ADD is a sin.
It says in the Bible that ADHD is a sin.
If you did with unforgiven ADHD you will
go to hell and fry for all eternity.
If you don't believe the way I understand the Bible,
you are commiting the ADD sin.

But that is just a guess :wavey:*

This is the Baptist wavy: waves only one hand,
feet never leave the ground (i.e. non-dancing).

 

[ccdnt]

(I have not read through all the posts) I have read enough about ADHD to doubt whether or not it exists as a disease. From what I have read, there is no conclusive biological test for it. The diagnosis is largely if not solely based off behavior observations and what the parents' children tell the doctor about the child's behavior. Much of this can be subjective. Whether it exists or not, I agree it is largely overdiagnosed. I also wonder how many parents would be willing to admit that it is their child(ren) who were possibly one the ones that were overdiagnosed? I gather from what I have seen that usually people will say they agree that it is overdiagnosed...but if they or their children have been diagnosed with it, they will not say that they or their children were possibly wrongly diagnosed.

 

[tragic_pizza]

(I have not read through all the posts) I have read enough about ADHD to doubt whether or not it exists as a disease.

Doubt away. Continue to believe everything you read on the Internet.

Overdiagnosed? Doubtless. But it does exist as a disorder.

 

[tragic_pizza]

It says in the Bible that ADD is a sin.
It says in the Bible that ADHD is a sin.
If you did with unforgiven ADHD you will
go to hell and fry for all eternity.
If you don't believe the way I understand the Bible,
you are commiting the ADD sin.

But that is just a guess :wavey:*

This is the Baptist wavy: waves only one hand,
feet never leave the ground (i.e. non-dancing).

Don't forget to add that you have an effeminate theology if you believe ADD, Ed...

:smilewinkgrin:

 

[James_Newman]

Oh, at the risk of sounding insensitive and boorish, where is the evidence of a disease? I don't think ADD/ADHD are anything more than a marketing campaign for dangerous kiddie cocaine.

 

[Pastor Larry]

Anything Ed Welch writes is immediately, and decisively, authoritative in my book. His "When Peopel Are Big And God Is Small" was a life-changing book for me.

Hopefully this one won't disappoint. I like Ed Welch a lot. I have that book but haven't read it yet. One of my favorites was "Addictions: Banquet in a Grave."

But it does exist as a disorder.

What exactly is the disorder? (I am not trying to be cantankerous here, just curious.) As I recall, the psychiatric diagnosis is a diagnosis of symptoms, not causes. When I read DSM-IV, I find myself in there. Most of the diagnostic criteria are preceded by "often." Welch cites the DSM-IV and says, "Have you just read your autobiography. It seems to fit your typical driven American. The word 'often' allows many of us to sneak into the category" (p. 134).

Here's a section from Welch (pp. 112-113).

Have you noticed that if you say, "I have attention deficit disorder [ADD]," it sounds very different from saying, "It is hard for me to pay attention to verbal presentations for very long"? Somehow, the psychiatric diagnosis seems to have greater authority than the layperson's description. ADD is something you have; the other statement is simply a description of something you do. Yet the difference between the two statements is les than you think. With ADD, except for the fact that the psychiatric definition is longer, there is really no difference between teh two: both desdcribe symptoms and neither explains the cause of those symptoms ...

Let's say someone asks, "Why is your son always squirming in his chair?" You respond, "Because he has ADD." This would be like saying, "He squirms in his chari because he fidgets a lot." For most people, this would not be a satisfactory answer. You are answering the why question with a what answer.

The psychiatric literature typically does not make that distinction clear.

Welch continues on p. 135: "Older children can be maddening in that they can be fixated on the television or Nintendo for hours, but they can concentrate on their homework for ten seconds or less. In other words, their attentino inconsistent rather than universally poor." This seems to fit very well into many ADD children that I have met. Give them a video game and they are good for hours. Give them a TV and they are good for hours. Give them a classroom or a book, and they are hyper.

He also says, 'Is it possiblt that some of what we call ADD is sinful self-indulgence and laziness? It is possible that a prominent cause of the behavior is a heart that demands its own way?" (p. 137).

Anyway ... I highly recommend the book.

 

[ccdnt]

Doubt away. Continue to believe everything you read on the Internet.

Overdiagnosed? Doubtless. But it does exist as a disorder.

There is more information out there than just the internet. There are doctors that question whether or not it exists as an actual disease. There are books that have been written about it. What can you offer as evidence that it does in deed exist as a disorder and should not be questioned on that fact?

 

[tinytim]

As a parent of 2 boys with it, I know it exists.. .please read my previous post.

 

[gekko]

of what proof do we have that this is a real disorder?

is there stats and graphs and scans that have been done?
could those be provided please?

i'm just curious that's all.