ADD/ADHD: Disease or Croc?

[Ed Edwards]

You want to talk about diseases of exclusion
which are tragically misdiagnosed,
let's talk about SIDS.

You want to talk about diseases of exclusion
which are tragically misdiagnosed,
let's talk about heresy.

 

[Raindrop]

I am chiming in here somewhat late, but whether an affliction is real or imagined, it remains real to those who suffer with it, and we ought to deal with it rather seriously. It is quite handicapping, and some physicians have had reasonable success. Those who discard it as unreal do an injustice to those folks, and that is the sad part.

Cheers,

Jim

Jim, thanks for your compassionate post.

 

[ccdnt]

After having gone through the tragedy of Alzheimer's Disease with two of my grandparents, my family and I learned that there are no biological markers for that disease either....

....well, none that can be useful for diagnosis until after the person is dead and an autopsy is performed.

ADD/ADHD is tragically overdiagnosed. Because there are no biological markers, it, like Alzheimer's should be a diagnosis of exclusion.

As you said, there is a biological marker for Alzheimer's Disease even though it is one after the person has died (when the brain is examined). There are no biological markers for ADHD at all. I do not know if autoposies have ever been performed on someone that was diagnosed with ADHD to look for any type of markers in the brain. I would think either they have not been done, or if they have, then nothing conclusive has been found. Otherwise, I would think it would show up in the literature.

 

[Scarlett O.]

As you said, there is a biological marker for Alzheimer's Disease even though it is one after the person has died (when the brain is examined). There are no biological markers for ADHD at all. I do not know if autoposies have ever been performed on someone that was diagnosed with ADHD to look for any type of markers in the brain. I would think either they have not been done, or if they have, then nothing conclusive has been found. Otherwise, I would think it would show up in the literature.

But my grandparents were diagnosed correctly without the biological marker is my point.

The exclusionary process for ADD/ADHD is what should be the proper pattern for diagnoses and modifications/accommodations should be tried before medications are dispense was all I was trying to say.

I'm through beating this dead horse.:BangHead:

:wavey: :godisgood:

 

[tragic_pizza]

As you said, there is a biological marker for Alzheimer's Disease even though it is one after the person has died (when the brain is examined). There are no biological markers for ADHD at all. I do not know if autoposies have ever been performed on someone that was diagnosed with ADHD to look for any type of markers in the brain. I would think either they have not been done, or if they have, then nothing conclusive has been found. Otherwise, I would think it would show up in the literature.

You missed the part where Scarlett said ADHD was a diagnosis of exclusion.

 

[ccdnt]

But my grandparents were diagnosed correctly without the biological marker is my point.

And Alzhiemer's Disease has been confirmed as a legitimate disease by a biological marker...ADHD has not. It is also not just the fact of the absence of a biological marker. There are many other reasons to doubt the existence of ADHD...many that have probably already been discussed on this forum.

 

[ccdnt]

You missed the part where Scarlett said ADHD was a diagnosis of exclusion.

No. I saw where that was said. How does ruling out other diseases/disorders prove the existence of ADHD?

 

[tinytim]

Can depression be proven by a biological marker?
What about panic attacks?

Mental illnesses are just as real even though you cannot detect them by a blood test.

 

[Jack Matthews]

It's greatly overdigangosed, IMO, and here are some factors (different factors for different kids...and in no particular order):
1. Bad parenting/lack of consistent, relationship-based, loving discipline.
2. The difference in boys and girls. Boys are rowdier, and the overwhelming number of ADHD "cases" are young males.
3. Overstimulization...an MD friend of mine believes that our brains, through media today, learn to process images faster than what is healthy...and they do it a lot. The rise in ADHD cases does mirror the increase in media exposure (TV, web, gaming, etc.) to children (and adults too).
4. Poor nutrition...not enough good stuff (veggies, vitamins) and too much bad stuff (processed food, sugar, caffeine).
5. (esp. boys) The lack of a consistent male figure in the home.
6. Laziness in our education system. It's easier to drug them than discipline them...not to mention the lack of home support in many cases. They also don't take into account in some instances differing learning styles (I'm seeing some progress here at least on the local level).
7. Overexposure of the crisis by professionals with a vested interest (psychiatrists, pharmaceutical companies, professional educators, etc.)

Now...having said that, I do believe that this can exist. I have met kids with such an amazing inability to focus that it was crippling. But I believe that psychotropic meds should be the last resort after rest, nutrition, discipline (if needed), curtailment of overstimuli (greatly reduce media time) exercise, and creative teaching methods (not all folks learn the same way) have been explored.

But that number left would be a fraction of what it is now.

As a result of a family tragedy in my family, and a bad situation in my wife's family, we are legal guardians for my two younger brothers, age 17 and 16, her brother, age 16, along with our 11 year old son. Put that much testosterone into one house and it looks like ADHD!

That being said, my wife's brother was diagnosed as ADD, without the hyperactivity, in second grade. I suspect that a lot of his behavior was the result of bad parenting, as per your #'s 1 and 5 and a side effect of that being poor nutrition. He came to us halfway through eighth grade with a school record that was thick with disciplinary reports for disruptive behavior. He wasn't a "bad" kid in terms of the kinds of things he got into, he just couldn't focus very well in a classroom setting or sit still through a 40 minute period. He had a few D's scattered in with mainly B's and C's. In athletics, particularly baseball, he excels.

We noticed an almost immediate change, just with the stability of having two adults in the house, and making adjustments to fit in with three other male family members. We found a psychiatrist through our school that agreed to take him off the meds and gave us a pretty comprehensive diet of organic food, limiting glutin-based products (a side benefit of which was that my wife and I have lost some weight and feel a little better and more fit from also eating out of the health food store!). He runs with me in the morning before he eats and gets ready for school. The school counselor gave him a learning style analysis, discovered he was primarily kinesthetic and visual, and put him in classes with teachers who also have the same learning styles as much as possible, and put him in an independent studies group for math courses, to work with a tutor at his own pace. He's the top student in the 11th grade at his school, and hasn't had a single disciplinary referral in two and a half years.

I'm not sure that means he didn't have ADD, but it was definitely something that was managed by a change of environment and diet, and not medication.

 

[Ed Edwards]

No. I saw where that was said. How does ruling out other diseases/disorders prove the existence of ADHD?

In the 1980s i was identified (clinically) as having
Hepatitus non-A, non-B. About 1995 or 1996 a blood test
for Hepatitus C was developed. I check as never having had
Hepatitus C. So then I knew I had Hepatitus non-A,B nor C.

From the early 1980s to 1995, I had by diagnosis of exclusion
Hepatitus C. After 1995 I had by diagnosis of exclusion
Hepatitus non-A,B nor C.

(BTW, I'd had Hepatitus A before the mysterm Hepatitus.
Maybe it just messed up my liver so it looks like I have
Hepatitus any time I have a lower GI track infection?)

I wonder? If a person is ADD some of the time
and ADHD at other times - is he/she socially bi-polar?
(as opposed to mentally bi-polar: depressed or elated).

 

[tinytim]

I wonder? If a person is ADD some of the time
and ADHD at other times - is he/she socially bi-polar?
(as opposed to mentally bi-polar: depressed or elated).

I am ADD, but never hyper!
If I was, I could lose this stupid weight...
Oh, look a chicken...

uhhh,.... yeah.. the weight... I lost 8 pounds in 10 days... I have been doing the weight watchers points things...

Did you know that a Monster burger from Hardees is 25 points!!!
that is like a whole days points for me.. when I add the fries...

but I don't really like the fries at Hardees... now Burger King.... Yeah Baby! those are great fries.... But that King scares me...

Can you imagine looking out your window and see him staring in!

that reminds me of one time, late one night,
Hey... wait.. I got an email...


OK, I'm back... Now where was I... oh yeah...

Late one night we looked out our window and a deer was looking in our window watching TV..

We were watching the news.. I guess he found it interesting.... I don't know why, because there is nothing good on....

Now where did I put my medication.... If I don't take it, I'll start rambling on.....:love2: :laugh: :thumbsup:


On a serious note, If I let my brain go, I seriously think like that... but I have trained it.

 

[annsni]

I am ADD, but never hyper!
If I was, I could lose this stupid weight...
Oh, look a chicken...

uhhh,.... yeah.. the weight... I lost 8 pounds in 10 days... I have been doing the weight watchers points things...

Did you know that a Monster burger from Hardees is 25 points!!!
that is like a whole days points for me.. when I add the fries...

but I don't really like the fries at Hardees... now Burger King.... Yeah Baby! those are great fries.... But that King scares me...

Can you imagine looking out your window and see him staring in!

that reminds me of one time, late one night,
Hey... wait.. I got an email...


OK, I'm back... Now where was I... oh yeah...

Late one night we looked out our window and a deer was looking in our window watching TV..

We were watching the news.. I guess he found it interesting.... I don't know why, because there is nothing good on....

Now where did I put my medication.... If I don't take it, I'll start rambling on.....:love2: :laugh: :thumbsup:


On a serious note, If I let my brain go, I seriously think like that... but I have trained it.

How in the WORLD did you have a conversation with my daughter?? When did you meet her - she never said you met her!!

Oh, MAN, that's just like talking to her. LOL!!

 

[tinytim]

I'm a kid at heart!

 

[Mike McK]

I have ADHD.

When I was a child, they just called it being hyperactive and tried to put me on medication. But the medication backfired and made me even worse, so my parents just taught me to handle it using non-chemical means.

I believe that ADD/ADHD is a serious problem, but I also believe that it's blamed for too many other things and that those who have it are often over medicated and the root cause of the problems swept under the rug in the name of a quick fix.

I remember an episode of The Simpsons where the doctors decided that Bart was hyperactive. They enrolled him in a trial to test a new medication.

Marge asks the doctor, "Doctor, are you sure this will work?"

The doctor responds, "Mrs. Simpson, outside of parental discipline and exercise, this is the best treatment we've found yet!"

To me, that pretty much sums it up.

 

[tinytim]

You mean Bart was hyperactive?!!!!

NOOOO WAAAAYYY! Now Maggie... I can believe...
After all the way she went after that pacifier....

I never sucked a pacifier.. I was a thumb sucker...

But it never affected my teeth... I never needed braces... but a couple girlfriends I had needed braces....

And after they got them off, man were they pretty...

Oops... did I do it again?

 

[ccdnt]

Can depression be proven by a biological marker?
What about panic attacks?

Mental illnesses are just as real even though you cannot detect them by a blood test.

I have not studied much about panic attacks, but as for depression...if you are referring to "clinical depression" then that is also controversial. However, this thread is about ADHD and is not about depression, the existence of mental illnesses in general, nor panic attacks. Each of those could easily have a thread of its own.

And, anyway, just saying that something is real does not make it real. What objective evidence can you give for the existence of ADHD?

 

[tinytim]

What I was trying to point out is that it is useless to try to find something in the blood when we are talking about mental diseases, such as ADHD, Clinical depresstion, and anxiety...

I do believe it exists, because I live with it... along with 2 of my sons.
I realize that is subjective evidence and not objective, but it is the best I can do... right now.

 

[ccdnt]

In the 1980s i was identified (clinically) as having
Hepatitus non-A, non-B. About 1995 or 1996 a blood test
for Hepatitus C was developed. I check as never having had
Hepatitus C. So then I knew I had Hepatitus non-A,B nor C.

From the early 1980s to 1995, I had by diagnosis of exclusion
Hepatitus C. After 1995 I had by diagnosis of exclusion
Hepatitus non-A,B nor C.

(BTW, I'd had Hepatitus A before the mysterm Hepatitus.
Maybe it just messed up my liver so it looks like I have
Hepatitus any time I have a lower GI track infection?)

I wonder? If a person is ADD some of the time
and ADHD at other times - is he/she socially bi-polar?
(as opposed to mentally bi-polar: depressed or elated).

Apples and oranges...From what I have read, Hepatitus A, B, and C are caused by viruses. This is a biological cause that can be tested for and identified. ADHD is not known to be caused by a virus. Were there blood tests for Hepatitus A and B in the 1980's (I know that there are now)? If so, then that was a biological test...there is no conclusive blood test (nor inconclusive one that I know of) for ADHD. From what you said, it sounds like they did not have a blood test for hepatitus C until relatively recently. Regardless of this, the point remains that all of these have conclusive biological causes (viruses) and blood tests. At present, no biological causes has been identified for ADHD. Its diagnosis is based solely on subjective informtion.

I understand how something can be diagnosed based on exclusion...as in testing for other known diseases/disorders and ruling those out. But to say that this can prove the existence of ADHD assumes its existence in the first place.

 

[LeBuick]

People can certainly when I'm not on my meds. If it is not ADD, then what ever it is I have is sure helped by the meds.

 

[tinytim]

People can certainly when I'm not on my meds. If it is not ADD, then what ever it is I have is sure helped by the meds.

And your avatar proves it!!! :tongue3:

I just love it when people think they know better than Drs...

Why go to the Drs if you are not willing to believe them....

"Sir, you have ______________ "
"NOPE, people on BB told me that it doesn't exist it must be something else"

Sorry, but I will take my Drs advice (which I trust fully) over you all.
If I am wrong.... welll.... there goes that chicken again!