Adoption

[percho]

Would it be correct to say that adoption is positional whereas being born is actual reality?

I ask this in the context of how adoption is used in scripture.

 

[Van]

Hi DHK,
We have been all through this. Why keep repeating your arguments. You know that the issue is not that we received the Holy Spirit as a pledge to our future adoption, but your assertion that we had to be adopted to receive the Holy Spirit. And that assertion is without any biblical support. What does scripture actually teach? We had to be born anew to receive the Holy Spirit.

 

[Van]

Hi Percho, the Greek word meaning "son-placing" is used 5 times in scripture, 1 time in a corporate reference to Israel, and 4 times in reference to the New Covenant. All four of these refer to the future redemption of our bodies. Paul uses the metaphor of a young man at maturity taking off his robe signifying his childhood relationship to his family, and putting on the robe signifying he now has all the rights and privileges of being an adult member of the family. This ceremony, this son-placing, is used to illustrate that at Christ's second coming, we will put off our mortal corrupt flesh body, and put on our glorified body.

This is not rocket science, just read these verses, Romans 8:15, Romans 8:23, Galatians 4:5, and Ephesians 1:5. Each time you see "adoption" put in "redemption of your body" and it all fits together without confusion.

 

[DHK]

Hi DHK,
We have been all through this. Why keep repeating your arguments. You know that the issue is not that we received the Holy Spirit as a pledge to our future adoption, but your assertion that we had to be adopted to receive the Holy Spirit. And that assertion is without any biblical support. What does scripture actually teach? We had to be born anew to receive the Holy Spirit.

But that is not what the verse says. You are reading your own presuppositions into the text--called eisigesis.
In Romans 9, Paul refers to Israel as being adopted of God.
Romans 9:4 Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;
--Now the adoption pertains to us, in this dispensation.
We are heirs of God's blessings and his inheritance. You will inherit nothing unless you are a son. We are his adopted son, just as Israel was adopted.

As Percho referred to: it is positional. He places us in his household as "mature" sons, eligible to be heirs, His adopted sons. If this is not true you would not be able to wait for the completed transaction--the redemption of your body. That is not going to happen if you are not an adopted son in the first place.

Now consider Scripture:
Galatians 4:1 Now I say, That the heir, as long as he is a child, differeth nothing from a servant, though he be lord of all;
--Here is an entire passage on adoption. Paul takes an illustration out of the Roman practice of appointing guardians until the child was of age which was 25.
Remember in Rom.8:15 the spirit of bondage was contrasted to the Spirit of adoption. The same contrast is made here.
Man's earlier period of spiritual immaturity under the law is contrasted to the believer's new freedom of adult sonship in Christ.

2 But is under tutors and governors until the time appointed of the father.
--A tutor had oversight over the child's person; while the governor oversaw his possessions.

3 Even so we, when we were children, were in bondage under the elements of the world:
--"In bondage" means "subject to."
--"The elements of the world" refer to the elementary religious teachings and practices. For the Jew it meant the Law. For the Gentile, it was the "law" written on their hearts. As in Rom.8:15, they were in bondage to the law. Before Christ man was, as it were, spiritually immature. Therefore he was subject to the law.

4 But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,
--The fullness of time (in the illustration) corresponds to "the appointed time of the father in verse 2. "Made of a woman" (referring to Christ), or "born of a woman" and made under or subject to the law.
Christ was born a Jew under the law in order to free those under the curse of the law. (vs.5).

5 To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.
--The Greek word for adoption here means "sonship conferred." Through Christ believers have become God's sons by adoption.

6 And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father.
--Every child of God was divinely given the Holy Spirit the moment he was adopted by God. Abba is that term of endearment which the Father is intimately called.

7 Wherefore thou art no more a servant, but a son; and if a son, then an heir of God through Christ.
--Thus the conclusion. The believer is no longer under the law. He is a son. That is, a full-grown, mature son who does not need the law's elementary guidance. He has the Holy Spirit to guide him instead.

 

[Yeshua1]

Hi Percho, the Greek word meaning "son-placing" is used 5 times in scripture, 1 time in a corporate reference to Israel, and 4 times in reference to the New Covenant. All four of these refer to the future redemption of our bodies. Paul uses the metaphor of a young man at maturity taking off his robe signifying his childhood relationship to his family, and putting on the robe signifying he now has all the rights and privileges of being an adult member of the family. This ceremony, this son-placing, is used to illustrate that at Christ's second coming, we will put off our mortal corrupt flesh body, and put on our glorified body.

This is not rocket science, just read these verses, Romans 8:15, Romans 8:23, Galatians 4:5, and Ephesians 1:5. Each time you see "adoption" put in "redemption of your body" and it all fits together without confusion.

except that in oder to be able to receive those new bodies, HAVE to bepart of family of God, and ONLY his adoptive sond and daughters quaalified for that to happen to them!

Hebrews states that God deals with legitimate children, but per you, now happening until second coming, so we are all now illegitmate!

 

[Van]

But that is not what the verse says. You are reading your own presuppositions into the text--called eisigesis.

Well it seems correct to say one of us is engaging in eisegesis. Romans 8:15 does not say we must be adopted to receive the Holy Spirit.

On the other hand, scripture does teach we must be born anew to receive the Holy Spirit.

What those who want to redefine son-placing as being adopted into the family of God are asking you to accept is that Paul used the very same word to mean something completely different just 8 verses later in the same chapter 8 of Romans. Fiddlesticks Words have meanings and if we redefine them, we are rewriting scripture, a no no.

To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.

Lets insert the meaning as given in Romans 8:23, i.e. promised resurrection, and we get "to redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the promised resurrection as children of God."

We become children of God not through adoption, but through being spiritually born anew. So only after we have been spiritually placed in Christ, and arisen in Christ a new creation, born anew from above, are we sealed with the Holy Spirit of Promise, and because we are children of God we will receive our inheritance which includes our promised resurrection in glorified bodies.

 

[Yeshua1]

Well it seems correct to say one of us is engaging in eisegesis. Romans 8:15 does not say we must be adopted to receive the Holy Spirit.

On the other hand, scripture does teach we must be born anew to receive the Holy Spirit.

What those who want to redefine son-placing as being adopted into the family of God are asking you to accept is that Paul used the very same word to mean something completely different just 8 verses later in the same chapter 8 of Romans. Fiddlesticks Words have meanings and if we redefine them, we are rewriting scripture, a no no.

Lets insert the meaning as given in Romans 8:23, i.e. promised resurrection, and we get "to redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the promised resurrection as children of God."

We become children of God not through adoption, but through being spiritually born anew. So only after we have been spiritually placed in Christ, and arisen in Christ a new creation, born anew from above, are we sealed with the Holy Spirit of Promise, and because we are children of God we will receive our inheritance which includes our promised resurrection in glorified bodies.

Now that we have been born again by grace of God, having new natures and having all sins remitted and cleansed by blood of chrsit, God freely now can and does adopt us into the Family!

 

[percho]

Hi Percho, the Greek word meaning "son-placing" is used 5 times in scripture, 1 time in a corporate reference to Israel, and 4 times in reference to the New Covenant. All four of these refer to the future redemption of our bodies. Paul uses the metaphor of a young man at maturity taking off his robe signifying his childhood relationship to his family, and putting on the robe signifying he now has all the rights and privileges of being an adult member of the family. This ceremony, this son-placing, is used to illustrate that at Christ's second coming, we will put off our mortal corrupt flesh body, and put on our glorified body.

This is not rocket science, just read these verses, Romans 8:15, Romans 8:23, Galatians 4:5, and Ephesians 1:5. Each time you see "adoption" put in "redemption of your body" and it all fits together without confusion.

except that in oder to be able to receive those new bodies, HAVE to bepart of family of God, and ONLY his adoptive sond and daughters quaalified for that to happen to them!

Hebrews states that God deals with legitimate children, but per you, now happening until second coming, so we are all now illegitmate!

Using the scriptures quoted and some others; We have received the Spirit of adoption unto the adoption. What is the meaning of redemption, in context to the body.

Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual. The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven. As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.
And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly. 1 Cor 46:49

Redemption relative to the body is for the body whether alive or dead to be, born again, incorruptible.

Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption. Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 1 Cor 15:50-53

The adopted shall be redeemed, whether dead or alive, from the power of the grave, death, past or future.

Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again. John 3:7

Son ship is applied to Christ through resurrection.

God hath fulfilled the same unto us their children, in that he hath raised up Jesus again; as it is also written in the second psalm, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee. Acts 13:33

And declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead: Romans 1:4

 

[DHK]

We become children of God not through adoption, but through being spiritually born anew. So only after we have been spiritually placed in Christ, and arisen in Christ a new creation, born anew from above, are we sealed with the Holy Spirit of Promise, and because we are children of God we will receive our inheritance which includes our promised resurrection in glorified bodies.

Children, not "adult sons." Not heirs. You have missed the boat. You don't even have the right to call him "Abba."
There is more that happens at the point of salvation then just regeneration.
That is what you are blind to.

Answer post #44.

 

[percho]

Now that we have been born again by grace of God, having new natures and having all sins remitted and cleansed by blood of chrsit, God freely now can and does adopt us into the Family!

Isn't the reality this.

Because we have been given the Spirit of Adoption we have been given a position in Christ who has the new nature? We are awaiting the new nature.

As in. Romans 6:9 Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him. We are awaiting that nature.

And. Acts 13:34 And as concerning that he raised him up from the dead, now no more to return to corruption, he said on this wise, I will give you the sure mercies of David. We are awaiting that nature.

 

[Van]

Now DHK says spiritually born children of God do not have the right or power to call God "Abba, Father." One of us has indeed missed the boat.

Would Paul use the same word in the same chapter, eight verses apart, to mean radically different things? Nope. Son-placing is a ceremony where children are placed among the adults of a family. They are revealed as sons, and no longer children. Paul uses this "son placing" metaphorically to refer to when we are revealed as sons of God at Christ's second coming. We are clothed in glorified bodies, and we meet Christ in the air. All the born anew children will be present.

So, "son-placing" actually refers to our promised resurrection. This meaning works for all five verses where Paul uses "son-placing." For even in the Old Testament did God promise the future resurrection of believing Israel. See Daniel 12:2 for example.

In summary all five verses (Romans 8:15, Romans 8:23, Romans 9:4, Galatians 4:5, and Ephesians 1:5 have the Greek word "son-placing" and could better be translated as "promised resurrection."

 

[DHK]

Now DHK says spiritually born children of God do not have the right or power to call God "Abba, Father." One of us has indeed missed the boat.

Would Paul use the same word in the same chapter, eight verses apart, to mean radically different things? Nope. Son-placing is a ceremony where children are placed among the adults of a family. They are revealed as sons, and no longer children. Paul uses this "son placing" metaphorically to refer to when we are revealed as sons of God at Christ's second coming. We are clothed in glorified bodies, and we meet Christ in the air. All the born anew children will be present.

So, "son-placing" actually refers to our promised resurrection. This meaning works for all five verses where Paul uses "son-placing." For even in the Old Testament did God promise the future resurrection of believing Israel. See Daniel 12:2 for example.

In summary all five verses (Romans 8:15, Romans 8:23, Romans 9:4, Galatians 4:5, and Ephesians 1:5 have the Greek word "son-placing" and could better be translated as "promised resurrection."

"Son-placing" happens at the time of salvation, not at the resurrection.
"Adoption" happens at the time of salvation, not at the time of the resurrection.
"Redemption" is at the time of salvation, not at the time of the resurrection.

The Bible says we wait for the redemption of our bodies.
According to your logic we have not been redeemed yet. We are still waiting to be redeemed. Have you been redeemed Van?
Have you been adopted?
Redemption and adoption happen at the same time. Pertaining to the body we wait for that aspect yet to happen. One cannot divorce one from the other as you do.

Perhaps you can follow this earthly illustration better.
Someone close to me adopted a son. This was a child in elementary school, so he too knew what was happening. In adoption the son's name had to be changed to the father's last name. He was adopted by the father. He became part of his household. His former father had no more claim on his life. He now had a father that would love him, and that he could return his love to. He would be able to express his love to him, call him "Dad," perhaps for the first time. In his first relationship it was not so. Now he knew what a true father/son relationship was like. The privilege and knowledge of calling his father "Abba" (Dad) meant so much more than the average child, because of his past.

This is a true story. The same father has another child, a toddler half the age of the adopted son. He loves her very much, and she loves him. The bond of love is there also. She also calls him "Dad," but does not have the understanding and knowledge of that name that the adopted son has. They are treated equally as his children. But the adopted son has a far greater knowledge of what it means to have the privilege to have a father to call him "Dad." He didn't always have that privilege.

Neither did we. Like him we were placed into God's family, whereas we were formerly in bondage, slaves to the law. Now we are sons, servants to the Heavenly Father, and have the privilege of calling him "Abba" (Dad, if you please), a privilege we didn't have before. The meaning therefore, is far greater than the natural born child.

There is much more that takes place at the point of salvation than just regeneration. This is what you are unwilling to admit.

 

[Van]

NASB Romans 8:15 For you have not received a spirit of slavery leading to fear again, but you have received the Spirit of [promised resurrection] by which we cry out, “Abba! Father!”

When "son-placing" is translated as "promised resurrection" then it becomes clear it is by the Spirit and not by adoption, that we cry out Abba Father.

Bottom line poor translation, following the traditional translation, has led to huge volumes of mistaken doctrine.

 

[Van]

Hi DHK,
Romans 8:23 says son-placing occurs with the resurrection of our bodies. You closed my thread on redemption, but apparently did not read it.

Being "born anew happens at the time of salvation, not at the promised resurrection.
Becoming born anew child through son-placing is not found in scripture, not at of salvation, and not at the time of the promised resurrection.
"Redemption" from the penalty of sin occurs at salvation, "redemption of our bodies occurs at Christ's second coming.

 

[DHK]

When "son-placing" is translated as "promised resurrection" then it becomes clear it is by the Spirit and not by adoption, that we cry out Abba Father.

Bottom line poor translation, following the traditional translation, has led to huge volumes of mistaken doctrine.

That translation is absolutely wrong. The Greek word is the word for adoption and has nothing to with resurrection. The translators have no right to insert their ideas into the verse, and should have translated the word as "adoption." You have the wrong translation.

 

[Van]

BTW, folks, I do not limit what happens at salvation to being regenerated, that claim by DHK is fiction.

 

[Van]

Hi DHK, adoption is not "son-placing." What you seem to be doing is pouring the modern meaning of the English word "adoption" back into the Greek text. There is a word for that.

 

[DHK]

(ASV) For ye received not the spirit of bondage again unto fear; but ye received the spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.

(Darby) For ye have not received a spirit of bondage again for fear, but ye have received a spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.

(DRB) For you have not received the spirit of bondage again in fear: but you have received the spirit of adoption of sons, whereby we cry: Abba (Father).

(EMTV) For you did not receive the spirit of bondage again unto fear, but you received the Spirit of adoption by whom we cry out, "Abba, Father."

(ESV) For you did not receive the spirit of slavery to fall back into fear, but you have received the Spirit of adoption as sons, by whom we cry, "Abba! Father!"

(Geneva) For ye haue not receiued the Spirit of bodage, to feare againe: but ye haue receiued the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry Abba, Father.

(ISV) For you have not received a spirit of slavery that leads you into fear again. Instead, you have received the Spirit of adoption by whom we cry out, "Abba! Father!"

(LITV) For you did not receive a spirit of slavery again to fear, but you received a Spirit of adoption by which we cry, Abba! Father!

(YLT) for ye did not receive a spirit of bondage again for fear, but ye did receive a spirit of adoption in which we cry, `Abba--Father.'

 

[DHK]

Hi DHK, adoption is not "son-placing." What you seem to be doing is pouring the modern meaning of the English word "adoption" back into the Greek text. There is a word for that.

Now you are simply denying the definition of the word.
You have not answered the points offered by Wycliffe Bible Encyclopedia which shows how it relates to the Roman culture of the adoption or son-placing of a son.
You have not answered my exegesis of the entire passage of Gal.4:1-7 which also shows that adoption is son-placing. You are simply making things up as you go.

 

[Van]

"Adoption: Greek: huiothesia. Noun, a compound noun from 'huio', a son and 'thesia' a placing, thus meaning adoption. The word was a legal technical term for a father's declaration that his natural born child was officially a son or daughter, with all the rights and privileges that this included."

(ASV) For ye received not the spirit of bondage again unto fear; but ye received the spirit of [promised resurrection], whereby we cry, Abba, Father.

(Darby) For ye have not received a spirit of bondage again for fear, but ye have received a spirit of [promised resurrection], whereby we cry, Abba, Father.

(DRB) For you have not received the spirit of bondage again in fear: but you have received the spirit of [promised resurrection], whereby we cry: Abba (Father).

(EMTV) For you did not receive the spirit of bondage again unto fear, but you received the Spirit of [promised resurrection] by whom we cry out, "Abba, Father."

(ESV) For you did not receive the spirit of slavery to fall back into fear, but you have received the Spirit of [promised resurrection], by whom we cry, "Abba! Father!"

(Geneva) For ye haue not receiued the Spirit of bodage, to feare againe: but ye haue receiued the Spirit of [promised resurrection], whereby we cry Abba, Father.

(ISV) For you have not received a spirit of slavery that leads you into fear again. Instead, you have received the Spirit of [promised resurrection] by whom we cry out, "Abba! Father!"

(LITV) For you did not receive a spirit of slavery again to fear, but you received a Spirit of [promised resurrection] by which we cry, Abba! Father!

(YLT) for ye did not receive a spirit of bondage again for fear, but ye did receive a spirit of [promised resurrection] in which we cry, `Abba--Father.'

The issue is not that "adoption" is the traditional and poor translation, but that promised resurrection is the actual meaning as can be seen in Romans 8:23