Age Old Arguement of Worship

[Charlotte Hayes]

Hey everyone! I was reading through 2 Samuel 6 tonight and had some interesting thoughts I'd like to share and get your feedback on. In our church like many the debate of contemporary versus traditional style of music continues on. It is almost drawn down generational lines, almost, and most people are either all traditional or all contemporary too. So, here are the parts of the scripture that got me thinking on this path:
1- King David was seen by everyone dancing before God. He was so wrapped up in his joy and worship of God nothing else mattered.
2- Michal saw him and was upset by what she considered his undignified behavior. She felt his behavior was disrespectful of the crown he wore as king. Some say she went as far as to describe his behavior as lewd.

Here even in the Old Testament we have essentially the same argument the church is having today over music. The difference between David and Michal is how they respond to God. David would let go of himself to celebrate God however it felt right. Now, I know you think this conclusion makes you think I'm all contemporary, but you may be surprised. You see King David's relationship with God was very different than Michal and let's be honest very different than any of us have. So, the way David worshipped was based solely on that which lead me to the next road of thought:
1- We have no idea what "style", what songs we will sing in heaven. Simply because we have never been in the physical presence of God Almighty! We can try to imagine, but really our reaction to the joy of that moment will remain unknown to us until that time.
2- That makes the whole we only sing quiet reverent songs like an angel choir people wrong but it also makes the we are going to rock it out only in heaven wrong. I truly believe it will be music we can never even fathom here in this life on earth.
3- This makes the whole all contemporary or all traditional a silly debate. Period.

So, where does that leave us? I think that answer can be simple too if we are willing.
1- It is then the PURPOSE and RESPONSIBILTY of any church's music ministry to use whatever "style" of music necessary to lead your congregation to a place where they can make a meaningful connection with the Holy Spirit.
2- In other words its your responsibly as music leader to be the one that bends to meet the spiritual needs of your church; not try to force the church to bend to your personal spiritual needs. Remember you're the leader.

This means if you are in a church that loves hymns sing them whether YOU like them or not. If you are in a church that loves Praise music sing it whether YOU like it or not. Know your congregation and be willing to serve them first and your personal preferences second.

Thoughts?

 

[Jordan Kurecki]

Hey everyone! I was reading through 2 Samuel 6 tonight and had some interesting thoughts I'd like to share and get your feedback on. In our church like many the debate of contemporary versus traditional style of music continues on. It is almost drawn down generational lines, almost, and most people are either all traditional or all contemporary too. So, here are the parts of the scripture that got me thinking on this path:
1- King David was seen by everyone dancing before God. He was so wrapped up in his joy and worship of God nothing else mattered.
2- Michal saw him and was upset by what she considered his undignified behavior. She felt his behavior was disrespectful of the crown he wore as king. Some say she went as far as to describe his behavior as lewd.

Here even in the Old Testament we have essentially the same argument the church is having today over music. The difference between David and Michal is how they respond to God. David would let go of himself to celebrate God however it felt right. Now, I know you think this conclusion makes you think I'm all contemporary, but you may be surprised. You see King David's relationship with God was very different than Michal and let's be honest very different than any of us have. So, the way David worshipped was based solely on that which lead me to the next road of thought:
1- We have no idea what "style", what songs we will sing in heaven. Simply because we have never been in the physical presence of God Almighty! We can try to imagine, but really our reaction to the joy of that moment will remain unknown to us until that time.
2- That makes the whole we only sing quiet reverent songs like an angel choir people wrong but it also makes the we are going to rock it out only in heaven wrong. I truly believe it will be music we can never even fathom here in this life on earth.
3- This makes the whole all contemporary or all traditional a silly debate. Period.

So, where does that leave us? I think that answer can be simple too if we are willing.
1- It is then the PURPOSE and RESPONSIBILTY of any church's music ministry to use whatever "style" of music necessary to lead your congregation to a place where they can make a meaningful connection with the Holy Spirit.
2- In other words its your responsibly as music leader to be the one that bends to meet the spiritual needs of your church; not try to force the church to bend to your personal spiritual needs. Remember you're the leader.

This means if you are in a church that loves hymns sing them whether YOU like them or not. If you are in a church that loves Praise music sing it whether YOU like it or not. Know your congregation and be willing to serve them first and your personal preferences second.

Thoughts?

And how do you know when people are “making a meaningful connection with the Holy Spirit”?

How do you know that if people are connecting to the Holy Spirit, or their own flesh, or their own heart, or even a Satanic spirit?

 

[Charlotte Hayes]

The truth is we can never truly know another man's heart, only God can. However, is there any benefit to being a leader of worship and pushing against a people? The responsibility of ministry leadership is to lead and guide based on Scripture, through prayer, and I believe a genuine care for the people you are leading. How can causing strife among people over music because of your own personal likes or dislikes be caring for the people who are under your leadership.

 

[Jordan Kurecki]

The truth is we can never truly know another man's heart, only God can. However, is there any benefit to being a leader of worship and pushing against a people? The responsibility of ministry leadership is to lead and guide based on Scripture, through prayer, and I believe a genuine care for the people you are leading. How can causing strife among people over music because of your own personal likes or dislikes be caring for the people who are under your leadership.

You assume that strife over music is just a matter of personal "likes" or "dislikes"

There are plenty of people who "like" certain styles of music because they make them feel good, but choose not to based on the fact that they believe said music does not honor or please God, many of them believe that certain styles of music communicate a message contrary to the words in the song, and contrary to a holy God.

To make it a simple matter of personal "likes" or "dislikes" is a serious dumbing down of the music issue and debate.

 

[Charlotte Hayes]

I don't see it as dumbing down at all. I believe as long as the intent behind the music is to honor God and is truly heartfelt style doesn't matter. I see the Bible teaching more on the condition of man's heart and no where on what style or type of music is holy or unholy. So, yes its as simple as personal preference.

 

[Rob_BW]

And how do you know when people are “making a meaningful connection with the Holy Spirit”?

How do you know that if people are connecting to the Holy Spirit, or their own flesh, or their own heart, or even a Satanic spirit?

I'm not really in a position to judge that regardless of the type of music one is worshiping with. One could fake it with the Psalms just as easy as they could with a classic hymn or contemporary song.

 

[TCassidy]

One could fake it with the Psalms just as easy as they could with a classic hymn or contemporary song.

I agree. And at least to some extent we see that pretty often today.

One of the things that seems to be associated with the new "7-11" music (the same 7 words repeated 11 times) is the "raising hands" to let everyone know just how spiritual you are (yes, yes, I know, that was perhaps an unfair judgment call).

This whole "raising hands" is based on a misunderstanding of "raising holy hands to heaven" and what is being referenced by 1 Timothy 2:8.

It is a reference to Moses being told to lift his hands toward heaven in acknowledgment that God was fighting the battle for them, and not the result of their own strength. As long as Moses kept his hands in the air Israel prevailed. But as he got tired he was no longer able to keep his hands up, so Joshua and Caleb came along beside him and they held HIS arms/hands up for him.

The whole point of "raising holy hands toward heaven" is that we don't engage in a public display of piety (usually false piety) but rather our prayer life should be centered on helping others in their relationship with the Lord. This modern movement seems to have missed that point.

 

[JonC]

So much is subjective. Is Joe wearing a suit as an expression of respect and worship or is it piety? Is Dave raising his hands in worship out of overwhelming gratitude and praise towards God or is it a show for the ladies in the pew behind him? Are we writing checks to the church out of a legalistic sense of obligation or are we gladly giving out of love as an act of worship?

Knowing that people express themselves differently, I do not have a problem with those who raise their hands in praise because for many not to do so would be an act of piety.

 

[TCassidy]

So much is subjective.

Yes. Without an objective standard, such as the bible, all becomes subjective.

 

[JonC]

Yes. Without an objective standard, such as the bible, all becomes subjective.

Yep. And we all know how the Bible forbids raising hands, using instruments, and wearing blue jean's in worship. Heck, next thing you know some will even use a baptistry instead of going to the river like Jesus did.

 

[TCassidy]

A total non-sequitur.

And we all know how the Bible forbids raising hands,

Chapter and verse on that please?

using instruments,

Chapter and verse?

wearing blue jean's in worship.

Chapter and verse?

I am not sure what a "bapistry" is but I will take your word for it.

Are you just trolling me again?

 

[Rob_BW]

A total non-sequitur.
Chapter and verse on that please?

Chapter and verse?

Chapter and verse?

I am not sure what a "bapistry" is but I will take your word for it.

Are you just trolling me again?

Turn your sarcasm meter in to the calibration lab.

 

[TCassidy]

Turn your sarcasm meter in to the calibration lab.

I looked all through the thread and can't find anywhere anyone made a claim that the bible forbids the raising of hands, or using instruments, or wearing blue jeans.

The only conclusion I could come to is trolling.

 

[Charlotte Hayes]

I believe it was trolling. I was just thinking how silly a thing it is for a church to become divided over. I wanted to get more opions. I mean, I have seen a church split ver music and it was such a selfish waste on both sides.

 

[Rolfe]

Re the OP. My own preference (word intentionally used) has for years been for the old hymns...that was what I was raised on.

About a year and a half or so ago, Mrs. Rolf and I began attending a church that had drums and guitars. The music drove me nuts, but I went for the preaching.

After I came to salvation through Christ last year, I began to see that it really was okay for the music sung in church to reflect the joy in one’s heart. My problem with the modern church music was a heart issue on my part.

 

[JonC]

A total non-sequitur.
Chapter and verse on that please?

Chapter and verse?

Chapter and verse?

I am not sure what a "bapistry" is but I will take your word for it.

Are you just trolling me again?

trolling... again....you responded to my reply to the OP.

I love you, bro....but it ain't always about you. And if the only conclusion you could come up with was "trolling" maybe you should just start asking 'cause you ain't so good concluding .

My point is that it would be foolish to condemn a man for raising his hand in worship as a response to God working in his life or simply be because he wanted to raise his hand. We have things of greater importance than judging how a brother expresses adoration to his Savior. Maybe the guy is being showy....but that's between him and God.

 

[JonC]

I believe it was trolling. I was just thinking how silly a thing it is for a church to become divided over. I wanted to get more opions. I mean, I have seen a church split ver music and it was such a selfish waste on both sides.

Then you believe wrongly. @TCassidy was responding to my comment about individual expressions of worship being subjective (my example that raising hands may be pious or it may be an expression of worship). This is evident by his quote of that comment.

So please be more careful before suggesting a member is trolling another (make sure it is true before jumping headfirst into a false accusation). While I'm not offended, some here quickly assume things about other people - perhaps more so than with other forms of communication (I think maybe because of the nature of online forums as people forget they are dealing with other people). Anyway, you are wrong about the trolling part - but no biggy.

You are right about the rest - about churches needlessly (and tragically) splitting over such things. As I stated ("trolled"), individual expressions of worship (in this context) are subjective. They are between the worshiper and God.

Good topic (and one that can be expanded to other areas....as you noted, to music and perhaps to worship styles).

Over the last few months I worshipped with an ultra-conservative congregation (suits for men, dresses for ladies, hymns only, no raising hands but a few "amens"). I also worshipped with one that had many raising hands (and guitars, drums, lights and a smoke machine). I am not joining either but both were engaged in worshipping God....they were my true brothers and sisters.

People just have to get over thinking that the vital aspect of worship is their preferences.

 

[TCassidy]

My point is that it would be foolish to condemn a man for raising his hand in worship as a response to God working in his life or simply be because he wanted to raise his hand.

You seem to have missed the point. Nobody has said that we should condemn a man for raising his hand in worship. You are just trolling.

 

[Reformed]

And this is topic is just one of the reasons why certain segments of Christianity subscribe to the Regulative Principle of Worship (we are to worship in the manner in which scripture prescribes) as opposed to the Normative Principle of Worship (we are allowed to worship in any manner not prohibited by scripture). The OP is from the Normative viewpoint. This is a debate that has raged forever and anon. No matter which approach to worship you practice, the idea that you can lead people to a "meaningful connection with the Holy Spirit" through music selection is theologically unsound. If it were true then those people who do not get with the music are left out in the cold. The church I attend recently changed from traditional hymns to a praise band. This is great for the Millennial generation, but it has been to the dismay of the many older saints in the church. I guess the Millennials now have a meaningful connection to the Holy Spirit while the seniors are viewed as intransigent and hindering the Holy Spirit. Subjectiveness in worship misses the biblical model.

 

[JonC]

You seem to have missed the point. Nobody has said that we should condemn a man for raising his hand in worship. You are just trolling.

I see. You are, essentially, begging for edification. As always, I’m here to help.

A member introduced the idea of raising hands associated with the new “7-11” music with his forced interpretation that the reason these people raise their hands is “to let everyone know just how spiritual [they] are”. He even acknowledged the lack of judgment in his statement (see post #7).

And he is right. It was an unfair judgment call on his part. Surely you’d agree…if not, then your disagreement is with him and not me. PM him and talk about it, but stop assuming things about me.

I am engaging the OP insofar as its gone beyond music and into styles. And I believe things like raising hands, types of music, and even dress pertains to the topic. The issue is that people seek to worship on their terms, often not caring about other people. They look for a worship where they are comfortable. They want music they like. They want sermons delivered how they want. They want to listen to topics that peak their interest. They want to leave on time to meet their appointments.....notice a trend?

Here's another thing to consider...just who's trolling who (that's rhetorical...an accusation, no need to answer, Prof) ? I was responding to the thread, not yanking your chain.