Alcohol

[HeirofSalvation]

I thought I might add this much only:

I agree whole-heartedly with Luke, HAmel, Webdog, Ann, and others who have a correct Biblical view of alcohol.

Frankly, used rightly and correctly, it is a blessing, pure and simple.
I want to add this warning from my own personal experience:
It is possible to abuse your Christian Liberty in this area....and...if you are not careful, it will sneak up on you and nail you blind-sided.

I drank responsibly for YEARS, and yes, quite frankly, I shared the gospel and quite fruitfully over bottles of wine (I was a wine sommelier) and enjoying some fine Belgian beers with non-Christians who enjoyed the blessings of fine works of art (which is what a great beer or fine liquer or wine is) and they, quite frankly were THRILLED to find a "Baptist" who believed the Scriptures whole-sale and without reservation, was conservative and had understood what the Scriptures teach: which is knowing it as a wonderful gift and blessing.

However...in a state (un-related to alcohol-use directly) I suffered a period of some "back-sliding"...and my use of alcohol reached some dangerous and abusive levels. IF folks you ever find your relationship with God suffering and you can recognize a loss of fellowship...please, just decide to give up alcohol for a while lest it come to "sting like an adder" as it did me for a while...

I have only cautiously begun using alcohol again recently, because it CAN be very deceitful...

I call to mind the Proverb about a wine "giving forth it's color in the cup"....and remember myself preaching the virtues of a great Malbec (there are great ones from South America. My favourite thing about them is the absolutely beautiful translucent deep red colour... It is part of the experience of such a lovely wine. But, if abused.......you will have some deep regrets :tear:
The problem with our tee-totalling brethren is that they are believing that the alcohol is the problem...it isn't...a rotten Spiritual relationship is and the abuse of alcohol is a SYMPTOM.

However, please folks always be mindful of the dangers of over-use...alcohol is like a fire-arm:
PERFECTLY safe, and a blessing :tongue3: in the right hands and used appropriately...deadly in the hands of someone out of fellowship with God!

Blessings to you all :1_grouphug:

 

[Bronconagurski]

And those who don't agree with it? It is not part of the Baptist Faith and Message. Do you think every baptist church should have to adopt it?
This is no argument for teetotalism. This is simply an argument for not drinking in the presence of ignorant Christians (that's what weaker brethren are).

So one should never do anything in ANY context if ANYBODY in any OTHER context could possibly be offended?

For example, one should not drink responsibly in the privacy of his home if there is anybody on earth anywhere who has a problem with it- even if that person never sees the Christian enjoy his liberty?

Then let me tell you something- NOBODY could ever do ANYTHING.

You misunderstand the "offend the weaker brother" rule in the Bible.

You want to apply it universally and it was not meant to apply universally. It is in a local church context.



This is not true. You state it as a fact without any support whatsoever. First of all, ALCOHOL does not itself CAUSE misery. People cause the misery. It's the same principle as the old gun rights adage- Guns don't kill people- people kill people.

Secondly, many millions of people enJOY the benefits of alcohol every day.

God SAID that people who want to enjoy these benefits SHOULD do so. God made wine for the purpose of making the heart merry. The Bible is very clear about this. When you say something is evil that God said is good- you sin- greatly.

This is the problem with basing your beliefs on the traditions ingrained in you from your isolated culture. It almost ALWAYS leads you to sin.

To say Christians should leave it alone is really a sin.




You totally misunderstand that verse. The point is "He that is not fully satisfied in his mind; who does not do it with a clear conscience..." (Barnes).

If you drink without a clear conscience, it is a sin. People who are handicapped by the culture in which they were raised (which is probably you) are weaker brothers. These weaker brother should not do things that culture has made them think is wrong- because TO THEM it is a sin. If they think it is wrong and they do it- then they sin. Fortunately many Christians are mature enough to know better.

To a more mature Christian not so bound by his culture it is certainly NOT a sin. It is a good thing so long as he is mindful of weaker brothers and does not do it to spite them.




But since drinking responsibly is a GOOD thing according to God himself there is no appearance of evil to it.

These are hard truths for some to understand. As someone who had big problems with alcohol before I got saved, I understand how alcohol abuse is an evil in this land. I blamed it for all my misery and problems, but the problem was not alcohol, it was sin. I thought total abstinence was the only answer for Christians. I thought this because God instantly took alcohol from me. I thought by Him doing that, alcohol usage had to be evil. What I found out is that I tend to do things to the excess. That was my problem, not the alcohol. As a young Christian, God knew that I could not drink without it causing me problems, so in His grace, He took it away. I think I could drink now, but I don't as my wife and friends know I had problems with it and I would not do anything to cause my wife of almost 29 years any reason to worry. Besides salvation, she has been the most wonderful thing to ever happen to me, along with our two sons. Anyway, I spoke out against alcohol usage in my earlier years and pointed to myself as to what could happen. It was a hard thing for me to understand that I was the problem, not the alcohol. I will tell you one thing, brother, you are not going to convince the naysayers as they think they are on a higher moral plain than you. I did at one time. When I finally took an honest look at the Scriptures, I found out that it self-control is a virtue attainable by the help of the Holy Spirit, and that total abstinence is not taught in the Scriptures. Self-control comes with spiritual maturity. Not just in alcohol, but in diet, in exercise, in spending, etc. It is great to have the freedom to choose or not to choose, and not to judge those who make different decisions than myself.

 

[InTheLight]

I would like to ask a simply honest question of those that have posted on this thread that believe in drinking. Question: Did you drink before you made a profession in the Lord, and in your moderate drinking have you at any time gotten drunk? For those that will not answer these two simple questions, i will take their silent answer as a yes.

No, I did not drink before I made a profession of faith. I got saved when I was 13. I grew up in a fundamental Baptist church that preached total abstinence.

Yes, I have gotten drunk before. The last time was about 19 years ago.

 

[Luke2427]

Yepper. Angry, assumptive, arrogant and to quote you, "uneducated & ignorant." How special, you win the thread!

If I don't belong, have me banned then. Otherwise, ignore me...for I have nothing to offer the strong. And while you're at it, why not try and chase away everyone that disagrees with you or offers real life experiences that run contrary to your reign here.

:thumbsup:

I think you have every bit as much RIGHT to be on here as I do. I have no desire to see you banned.

You are the one who said this thread tempts you to return to a life of alcohol abuse.

You should follow the advice.

As for real life experience. You have no idea. I was raised by drunkards and dope addicts. I have lifted my mother off of the floor from her passed out drunk state many times.

My father DIED from alcohol abuse. I signed the paper work to shut off life support.

Don't flatter yourself that your bad experiences give you some superior insight.

The point is that Christians should pursue DISCERNMENT on these issues. We need to grow to be able to discern the difference between responsible use and abuse.

But there is nothing noble or holy about condemning something God says is good if used properly just because you used it IMPROPERLY and had bad experiences from doing so.

There is nothing thoughtful about such a position. There is nothing commendable about it. There is nothing biblical about it.

Wisdom is what we should pursue. Not just knee jerk reaction or culture and tradition based dogmas.

 

[HeirofSalvation]

These are hard truths for some to understand. As someone who had big problems with alcohol before I got saved, I understand how alcohol abuse is an evil in this land. I blamed it for all my misery and problems, but the problem was not alcohol, it was sin. I thought total abstinence was the only answer for Christians. I thought this because God instantly took alcohol from me. I thought by Him doing that, alcohol usage had to be evil. What I found out is that I tend to do things to the excess. That was my problem, not the alcohol. As a young Christian, God knew that I could not drink without it causing me problems, so in His grace, He took it away. I think I could drink now, but I don't as my wife and friends know I had problems with it and I would not do anything to cause my wife of almost 29 years any reason to worry. Besides salvation, she has been the most wonderful thing to ever happen to me, along with our two sons. Anyway, I spoke out against alcohol usage in my earlier years and pointed to myself as to what could happen. It was a hard thing for me to understand that I was the problem, not the alcohol.

Two words:

BING
and
GO!!!:thumbsup::applause::thumbsup:

 

[Luke2427]

I thought I might add this much only:

I agree whole-heartedly with Luke, HAmel, Webdog, Ann, and others who have a correct Biblical view of alcohol.

Frankly, used rightly and correctly, it is a blessing, pure and simple.
I want to add this warning from my own personal experience:
It is possible to abuse your Christian Liberty in this area....and...if you are not careful, it will sneak up on you and nail you blind-sided.

I drank responsibly for YEARS, and yes, quite frankly, I shared the gospel and quite fruitfully over bottles of wine (I was a wine sommelier) and enjoying some fine Belgian beers with non-Christians who enjoyed the blessings of fine works of art (which is what a great beer or fine liquer or wine is) and they, quite frankly were THRILLED to find a "Baptist" who believed the Scriptures whole-sale and without reservation, was conservative and had understood what the Scriptures teach: which is knowing it as a wonderful gift and blessing.

However...in a state (un-related to alcohol-use directly) I suffered a period of some "back-sliding"...and my use of alcohol reached some dangerous and abusive levels. IF folks you ever find your relationship with God suffering and you can recognize a loss of fellowship...please, just decide to give up alcohol for a while lest it come to "sting like an adder" as it did me for a while...

I have only cautiously begun using alcohol again recently, because it CAN be very deceitful...

I call to mind the Proverb about a wine "giving forth it's color in the cup"....and remember myself preaching the virtues of a great Malbec (there are great ones from South America. My favourite thing about them is the absolutely beautiful translucent deep red colour... It is part of the experience of such a lovely wine. But, if abused.......you will have some deep regrets :tear:
The problem with our tee-totalling brethren is that they are believing that the alcohol is the problem...it isn't...a rotten Spiritual relationship is and the abuse of alcohol is a SYMPTOM.

However, please folks always be mindful of the dangers of over-use...alcohol is like a fire-arm:
PERFECTLY safe, and a blessing :tongue3: in the right hands and used appropriately...deadly in the hands of someone out of fellowship with God!

Blessings to you all :1_grouphug:

I COULD NOT AGREE WITH THIS MORE!

This is SUCH a useful and thoughtful and appropriate post in this discussion!

The caution is excellent and needful.

Liberty CAN ONLY EVER BE EXERCISED by those who are strong in the faith.

Babes in Christ must GROW in order to be able to exercise liberty. We know this instinctively. That's the VERY reason we have a drinking age. Maturity is essential.

 

[InTheLight]

Here you go. Rather long but you asked for comprehensive.

Most of these commentaries are begging the question, that is, they say "do not make a brother to stumble because it will make him weak in the faith" or "don't do anything to offend your brother because it might make him stumble". It's kind of circular reasoning.

I did see this:

Or is made weak - Η ασθενει, from α, negative, and σθενος, strength; without mental vigor; without power sufficiently to distinguish between right and wrong, good and evil, lawful and unlawful. To get under the dominion of an erroneous conscience, so as to judge that to be evil or unlawful which is not so.

Interesting, because this is exactly what we are discussing--the evilness of consuming alcohol. In this context, I'm with WebDog:

For me its when I have the "weaker brother" scold me for my position that I believe Scripture supports and attempts to judge my standing before the Lord. This in turn causes me to be angry with my brother

So constantly saying drinking alcohol is a sin, when in fact the Bible does not say so, is causing me to question my judgment that something that is lawful is unlawful, thus causing ME to stumble.

 

[InTheLight]

I thought I might add this much only:

I agree whole-heartedly with Luke, HAmel, Webdog, Ann, and others who have a correct Biblical view of alcohol.

Frankly, used rightly and correctly, it is a blessing, pure and simple.
I want to add this warning from my own personal experience:
It is possible to abuse your Christian Liberty in this area....and...if you are not careful, it will sneak up on you and nail you blind-sided.

I drank responsibly for YEARS, and yes, quite frankly, I shared the gospel and quite fruitfully over bottles of wine (I was a wine sommelier) and enjoying some fine Belgian beers with non-Christians who enjoyed the blessings of fine works of art (which is what a great beer or fine liquer or wine is) and they, quite frankly were THRILLED to find a "Baptist" who believed the Scriptures whole-sale and without reservation, was conservative and had understood what the Scriptures teach: which is knowing it as a wonderful gift and blessing.

However...in a state (un-related to alcohol-use directly) I suffered a period of some "back-sliding"...and my use of alcohol reached some dangerous and abusive levels. IF folks you ever find your relationship with God suffering and you can recognize a loss of fellowship...please, just decide to give up alcohol for a while lest it come to "sting like an adder" as it did me for a while...

I have only cautiously begun using alcohol again recently, because it CAN be very deceitful...

I call to mind the Proverb about a wine "giving forth it's color in the cup"....and remember myself preaching the virtues of a great Malbec (there are great ones from South America. My favourite thing about them is the absolutely beautiful translucent deep red colour... It is part of the experience of such a lovely wine. But, if abused.......you will have some deep regrets :tear:
The problem with our tee-totalling brethren is that they are believing that the alcohol is the problem...it isn't...a rotten Spiritual relationship is and the abuse of alcohol is a SYMPTOM.

However, please folks always be mindful of the dangers of over-use...alcohol is like a fire-arm:
PERFECTLY safe, and a blessing :tongue3: in the right hands and used appropriately...deadly in the hands of someone out of fellowship with God!

Blessings to you all :1_grouphug:

Great post.

 

[HeirofSalvation]

I COULD NOT AGREE WITH THIS MORE!

This is SUCH a useful and thoughtful and appropriate post in this discussion!

The caution is excellent and needful.

Liberty CAN ONLY EVER BE EXERCISED by those who are strong in the faith.

Babes in Christ must GROW in order to be able to exercise liberty. We know this instinctively. That's the VERY reason we have a drinking age. Maturity is essential.

Thank you...:flower: I thought the warning appropriate, because it wasn't merely about an unregenerate "drunkard" who got saved and gave it up...I was a VERY regenerate man...but back-slidden somewhat, and it still bit me in the bum! :tear:

Even other-wise "mature" Christians must ALWAYS exercise caution if their fellowship is suffering :thumbsup:

 

[InTheLight]

I will once you address the Scripture already given and bumped by InTheLight numerous times on this thread.

I'm not going to get an answer because there is no answer.

I haven't gotten an answer as to why, if alcohol use is forbidden, the admonition from Paul is that deacons "not be given to much wine", if wine is truly only grape juice.

Lets substitute alcohol with "fried foods" in Johnny Mac's quote. Still hold true? I'll expect you to no longer partake of anything fried or containing saturated fats from this point on, right?

Yes, it's that need by some to hold onto the arguing of legalities of certain activities that offend them, yet ignore others that would be applicable if the logic of their argument were to be extended. It's the whole "abstain from all appearance of evil" argument selectively applied.

 

[Monster]

I think you have every bit as much RIGHT to be on here as I do. I have no desire to see you banned.

You are the one who said this thread tempts you to return to a life of alcohol abuse.

You should follow the advice.

As for real life experience. You have no idea. I was raised by drunkards and dope addicts. I have lifted my mother off of the floor from her passed out drunk state many times.

My father DIED from alcohol abuse. I signed the paper work to shut off life support.

Don't flatter yourself that your bad experiences give you some superior insight.

The point is that Christians should pursue DISCERNMENT on these issues. We need to grow to be able to discern the difference between responsible use and abuse.
But there is nothing noble or holy about condemning something God says is good if used properly just because you used it IMPROPERLY and had bad experiences from doing so.

There is nothing thoughtful about such a position. There is nothing commendable about it. There is nothing biblical about it.

Wisdom is what we should pursue. Not just knee jerk reaction or culture and tradition based dogmas.

I think you have every bit as much RIGHT to be on here as I do. I have no desire to see you banned.

- Thank you!

You are the one who said this thread tempts you to return to a life of alcohol abuse.

- No, I did not say it tempted me. I used language that conveyed conjecture. Maybe I wasn't clear enough. My answer was direct response to a specific question/s, NOT asked by you.

You should follow the advice.

- I choose not to follow. This is a discussion and when not completely vitriolic, educational and enlightening.

As for real life experience. You have no idea. I was raised by drunkards and dope addicts. I have lifted my mother off of the floor from her passed out drunk state many times.

- Dittos brutha'. It's not pleasant when you feel misrepresented or understood, doesn't it? That wasn't my intention, and many apologies if I came across that way. You are however mirroring my reactions to your word.

My father DIED from alcohol abuse. I signed the paper work to shut off life support.

- Mine came close. I blessed to see Christ work a change before it went that far. I'm sorry for your tragedy.

Don't flatter yourself that your bad experiences give you some superior insight.

The point is that Christians should pursue DISCERNMENT on these issues. We need to grow to be able to discern the difference between responsible use and abuse.
But there is nothing noble or holy about condemning something God says is good if used properly just because you used it IMPROPERLY and had bad experiences from doing so.

- Nothing superior about sharing personal experiences. If I came across that way, that's my miscommunication but I do believe you could re-read my words before jumping to that conclusion...or try this, try and get to know me before hurling insults.

There is nothing thoughtful about such a position. There is nothing commendable about it. There is nothing biblical about it.

- I don't condemn alcohol or the drinker thereof (you seem to have blinders on about this). We've had this conversation before, you might not remember. I said then and will say again. Drink up! Drown yourself in the stuff if that works for you. Consider the affects/effects it has on others, while you do, please.

Wisdom is what we should pursue. Not just knee jerk reaction or culture and tradition based dogmas.

- Read the above. You are not arguing with me about this point.

I accept that I may be reading your posting demeanor all wrong but you come across as angry and insulting with nearly every post you make. I may be clouding some of your perceptions...maybe.

 

[DHK]

The point is that Christians should pursue DISCERNMENT on these issues. We need to grow to be able to discern the difference between responsible use and abuse.

But there is nothing noble or holy about condemning something God says is good if used properly just because you used it IMPROPERLY and had bad experiences from doing so.

There is nothing thoughtful about such a position. There is nothing commendable about it. There is nothing biblical about it.

Wisdom is what we should pursue. Not just knee jerk reaction or culture and tradition based dogmas.

Discernment is a key word. Paul used discernment when he said:

1 Corinthians 8:13 Wherefore, if meat make my brother to offend, I will eat no flesh [read alcohol] while the world standeth, lest I make my brother to offend.

Are you willing to put scripture into practice?

 

[Luke2427]

- Thank you!


- No, I did not say it tempted me. I used language that conveyed conjecture. Maybe I wasn't clear enough. My answer was direct response to a specific question/s, NOT asked by you.



- I choose not to follow. This is a discussion and when not completely vitriolic, educational and enlightening.




- Dittos brutha'. It's not pleasant when you feel misrepresented or understood, doesn't it? That wasn't my intention, and many apologies if I came across that way. You are however mirroring my reactions to your word.


- Mine came close. I blessed to see Christ work a change before it went that far. I'm sorry for your tragedy.

I was not trying to compete with anyone about who had the worst experiences, btw. I shared that simply to say that one does not have to be void of personal life experiences pertaining to the tragedy of alcohol abuse to hold a position of moderation.

Thank you for your warmth, nonetheless.

- Nothing superior about sharing personal experiences. If I came across that way, that's my miscommunication but I do believe you could re-read my words before jumping to that conclusion...or try this, try and get to know me before hurling insults.

You came across, to me, as though I was some one with no idea what I was talking about because I have been sheltered or something.

Truth is truth regardless of experiences. Without any personal alcohol experience whatsoever, one can exegete the Scriptures and rightly stand for liberty as it pertains to alcohol.

- I don't condemn alcohol or the drinker thereof (you seem to have blinders on about this). We've had this conversation before, you might not remember. I said then and will say again. Drink up! Drown yourself in the stuff if that works for you. Consider the affects/effects it has on others, while you do, please.

Yes, but I think you may be like many on this site who take the "offend the weaker brother" principle too far. If we applied it in all areas like some want to apply it in the areas that suit them then NOBODY would ever be able to do ANYTHING.

- Read the above. You are not arguing with me about this point.

I accept that I may be reading your posting demeanor all wrong but you come across as angry and insulting with nearly every post you make. I may be clouding some of your perceptions...maybe.

I am not angry. I can tend to be aggressive.

I dream of a world where tone is irrelevant. Where 2 +2=4 REGARDLESS of what tone one uses as he claims it. If his premises are true then his conclusion is true, regardless of his tone.

When a man says 2+2=5 we tend to say, "WHAT????!!! You claim to be knowledgeable enough to discuss this matter and you don't even accept that 2+2=4!?!?"

That's where I come from.

I grew up in a fundamentalist movement where very uneducated people screamed and hollered in condemnation of things- and they were very ignorant biblically, historically, etc... concerning those things. I came to the conclusion that if you are going to beat a pulpit in condemnation of something you better DARN WELL know a whole LOT about it. To not be educated in an area and speak SO AUTHORITATIVELY on it is evil to me now.

This comes off in my posting.

 

[Luke2427]

Discernment is a key word. Paul used discernment when he said:

1 Corinthians 8:13 Wherefore, if meat make my brother to offend, I will eat no flesh [read alcohol] while the world standeth, lest I make my brother to offend.

Are you willing to put scripture into practice?

Rightly divided in its context- absolutely!

But just posted with no context, no exegesis that proves it says what you purport it says-no! And no one ever should, DHK. No one ever should.

 

[salzer mtn]

I can say i have honestly learned a lot on this thread. I have enjoyed the testimonies on the latter pages and consider you all, brothers and sisters in Christ.

 

[InTheLight]

I can say i have honestly learned a lot on this thread. I have enjoyed the testimonies on the latter pages and consider you all, brothers and sisters in Christ.

Amen to that!

This forum can be very educational. I've learned a lot since coming here.

Many very good arguments can be made against drinking alcohol and the best thing is probably to never start drinking it. However, "drinking alcohol is a sin" is not a good, Biblical argument.

 

[Thomas Helwys]

Gosh, I am amazed how long this thread has gotten and the speed at which it got here!

Some good discussion going on.

 

[Revmitchell]

I am not angry. I can tend to be aggressive.

I dream of a world where tone is irrelevant. Where 2 +2=4 REGARDLESS of what tone one uses as he claims it. If his premises are true then his conclusion is true, regardless of his tone.

That is one of the all time dumbest things I have seen posted on this board.


Translation: I want to have the freedom to be as rude and arrogant as I want to without being held accountable for it and questioned about it.


Yea we get it.

 

[HeirofSalvation]

Gosh, I am amazed how long this thread has gotten and the speed at which it got here!

Some good discussion going on.

LOL!! You are OBVIOUSLY new to this board...........30+ pages in a week??

Two more words for you:
1.) Booze
2.) Calvinism/Arminianism

We can generate 500 pages in a month if all goes well on those two topics!!!
Why not?
These...among other issues are some of the most particularly critical Zeitgeists of our age, and I guess we are all products of it.

I look forward to your continued posting even if I've clashed with you (at least partially my fault) on other issues.
You will be a challenging benefit to us all:wavey:

 

[Luke2427]

That is one of the all time dumbest things I have seen posted on this board.


Translation: I want to have the freedom to be as rude and arrogant as I want to without being held accountable for it and questioned about it.


Yea we get it.

So... let me get this straight.

Saying "This is the dumbest thing I have ever seen posted on baptistboard " is NOT rude in your opinion?

What blatant hypocrisy!

Let me tell you about these people who go on and on about somebody being angry, rude, etc...

They only care about that when the person they accuse of these things argues against what they believe.

They only use such claims as leverage- not because they are principled people who have some moral core that is against rudeness.

This post of Rev Mitchell's is proof of this.