Alfie Dies

[Aaron]

Wrong there.
You can use private hospitals. You can have private health insurance if you wish. The last employer I had before I retired gave me free health insurance, but I never had to use it.

A friend of mine had two knee replacements in a private hospital but paid for by the NHS.

That makes the murder of Alfie better.

 

[David Kent]

No, Matt, the outcome would not have been the same, unless you're referring to Alfie's death. There was no reason not to return the child to his parents if he was so out of it and terminal, except a gay judge said no and it held on appeal.

I am glad you and David are happy with your healthcare system but I sure wouldn't want to be under it if I or somebody I knew had a rare and/or fatal disease - they ARE bureaucrats at NHS (the bureau) because they work for the government and are paid in tax dollars. But since they are bureaucrats, they're going to do everything by formula and try to apply their limited knowledge in cases like this one and Charlie's. Both of their conditions were so rare about nobody in the world "knew best", makes you wonder what they would have done with that Mask kid, Rocky or Steven Hawkin's parents if they weren't prominent in the British medical community. Already talked about a couple of cases here where the courts stepped in, realize that this is a complex and usually case by case situation, but you can see it can and does happen here. And so does the flipside:

What Does It Mean to Die? | The New Yorker

mother petitioned and won that case, still don't know for sure if she's alive or not but this is the other extreme.

Doctors do not work for the government. They work for independent trusts. The trusts are allocated funds by the health department

As it happens I used to work for the General Medical Council.

 

[777]

But, David, doesn't everyone at Alder Hey work directly for the government? I'm aware that a lot of physicians don't work directly for the NHS, they are subcontractors in a sense. I knew of some expats years ago, they just couldn't take the workload there anymore:

BMA - Running a general practice

look at all the layers of bureaucracy, all the rules, all the regulation. Matt, the last place I'd ever want my child to be is at Alder Hey, that's the place that stored all those organs without parental consent years ago:

Alder Hey organs scandal - Wikipedia

so they responded by passing a law and creating yet MORE bureaucracy, figures. Too much paperwork, no wonder you have to rely on all those foreign doctors over there.

 

[just-want-peace]

IMHO, the primary problem with gov't medicine, is the control that suddenly becomes "LEGAL" if and when a parent cannot take a child HOME and allow him to die surrounded by his loved ones; even if all they can do is supply him water periodically to let him be a bit more comfortable as he fades away.

No judge or Dr. should have the authority to deny this basic request of parents.

My wife, a nurse, says that the last faculty to "go" is the sense of hearing. If true, how much more comfort would this little tyke have had in his dying moments beyond that of a bunch of Drs. & nurses etc. babbling about why he was being kept from his parents as he died!!!

I have no doubt that there is a special place in Hell for practitioners of such satanic rituals!

 

[church mouse guy]

The Brits appear to lack compassion.

 

[Matt Black]

IMHO, the primary problem with gov't medicine, is the control that suddenly becomes "LEGAL" if and when a parent cannot take a child HOME and allow him to die surrounded by his loved ones; even if all they can do is supply him water periodically to let him be a bit more comfortable as he fades away.

No judge or Dr. should have the authority to deny this basic request of parents.

My wife, a nurse, says that the last faculty to "go" is the sense of hearing. If true, how much more comfort would this little tyke have had in his dying moments beyond that of a bunch of Drs. & nurses etc. babbling about why he was being kept from his parents as he died!!!

I have no doubt that there is a special place in Hell for practitioners of such satanic rituals!

He was with his father when he died

 

[just-want-peace]

He was with his father when he died

Yet the father, if I understand correctly, was PREVENTED from offering any water to him!? Would this include (if true) prevention of even moistening his mouth & lips to control the extreme discomfort of dryness in these two areas?
And, as I stated in my post about HEARING, would the tyke not have been far more at ease surrounded by loved ones at home, or wherever, rather than all the jargon beyond his parents talking?
Unfortunately, I see this as that slippery slope the conservatives harp about and is ridiculed by liberals; but has been proven by time to be exceptionally true!

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

I'm not sure what relevance the High Court judge's sexuality is to the case but, anyway... the outcome would have been the same: private medical practitioners are bound by the same code of conduct and ethics as those working for the NHS; both are regulated by the General Medical Council: General Medical Council - Wikipedia . Given that all the doctors involved in the court case - for all sides - agreed on (a) prognosis and (b) outcome, I'm struggling to see how the result would have been any different in a private hospital.

Out of curiosity, does Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland operate the same way or are there differences?

 

[HankD]

What kind of a country insists:
1. You must use our national health care.
2. You can't treat your child in the hospital.
3. You can't remove your child from the hospital.
4. You can't get treatment outside the hospital.
5. You must let you child die in the hospital.

Sent from my Pixel 2 XL

Here in WA state its called "Death with Dignity" or - Legalized Euthanasia in disguise.
True the "patient" supposedly makes the decision.

In Terri's case when the "patient" is unable to make the decision then the medical profession in collusion with the government makes the decision.
she was costing too much money.

When the left gets back in control expect many elderly to die with "dignity".

OH that can never happen!

OH? Roe v. Wade (Baby murder).

Coming next : Elderly murder.

Or as it was called in the 1930's in Europe - the Elimination of "Useless Eaters" - Google it.

 

[just-want-peace]

"The Twilight Zone" The Obsolete Man (TV Episode 1961) - IMDb

An old TWILIGHT ZONE plot was along these lines, & the term used in that episode was "OBSOLETE". It was very humane(??) though as you were given the choice of your elimination method. When it aired, it was very, VERY futuristic, BUT-----!

Many of these tales were in actuality - prophecy - though not regarded as such at the time!
(BIG BROTHER IS WATCHING YOU!!)

Even so, come Lord Jesus!!

 

[Matt Black]

Yet the father, if I understand correctly, was PREVENTED from offering any water to him!? Would this include (if true) prevention of even moistening his mouth & lips to control the extreme discomfort of dryness in these two areas?
And, as I stated in my post about HEARING, would the tyke not have been far more at ease surrounded by loved ones at home, or wherever, rather than all the jargon beyond his parents talking?
Unfortunately, I see this as that slippery slope the conservatives harp about and is ridiculed by liberals; but has been proven by time to be exceptionally true!

Alfie couldn't swallow, so trying to get him to drink water would have hastened his end in an uncomfortable way by basically choking him to death. As I understand it, he was with his family when he died not medics

 

[Matt Black]

Out of curiosity, does Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland operate the same way or are there differences?

England and Wales form.one jurisdiction for the moment although that is likely to change with more Welsh devolution. In Scotland, the principle piece of legislation is here: Children (Scotland) Act 1995

In 'Norn Iron' it is here: The Children (Northern Ireland) Order 1995

Very similar legal principles apply

 

[HankD]

Alfie couldn't swallow, so trying to get him to drink water would have hastened his end in an uncomfortable way by basically choking him to death. As I understand it, he was with his family when he died not medics

Murder is murder no matter how "humane".

 

[Matt Black]

Letting nature take its course isn't murder: the hospital had kept him "not totally dead" artificially for over a year.

 

[just-want-peace]

Letting nature take its course isn't murder: the hospital had kept him "not totally dead" artificially for over a year.

I agree with this concept, that endlessly sustaining life purely by artificial means is an attempt to thwart His

Letting nature take its course isn't murder: the hospital had kept him "not totally dead" artificially for over a year.

I'm in total agreement with the bolded portion.

Edited to add -- that this decision SHOULD have been for the parents to decide, and if they chose to take him home, to Italy or on a cruise, this SHOULD have been a decision made by them, not bureaucrats.

 

[777]

It was passive euthanasia, different from outright murder and active euthanasia. Stephen Hawkins couldn't swallow either towards the end of his life but they hydrated him using other methods and he died a true natural death.

"Letting nature take its course" can also mean having strep throat leading to death without penicillin, nature should be stopped in its tracks.

 

[HankD]

Letting nature take its course isn't murder: the hospital had kept him "not totally dead" artificially for over a year.

Mrs Evans claimed a misdiagnoses:

His parents, who live in Bootle, wanted to fly the toddler to an Italian hospital, but this was rejected by doctors who said continuing treatment was "not in Alfie's best interests"...

The couple heavily criticised medical staff, with Mr Evans suggesting his son was a "prisoner" at the hospital and had been misdiagnosed.

 

[Matt Black]

I agree with this concept, that endlessly sustaining life purely by artificial means is an attempt to thwart His


I'm in total agreement with the bolded portion.

Agreed with you up until here

Edited to add --

that this decision SHOULD have been for the parents to decide, and if they chose to take him home, to Italy or on a cruise, this SHOULD have been a decision made by them, not bureaucrats.

Only IF it was in Alfie's best interests; he was their child, not their possession.

 

[Matt Black]

It was passive euthanasia, different from outright murder and active euthanasia. Stephen Hawkins couldn't swallow either towards the end of his life but they hydrated him using other methods and he died a true natural death.

"Letting nature take its course" can also mean having strep throat leading to death without penicillin, nature should be stopped in its tracks.

The difference is that Stephen Hawking had a fully functioning brain/ mind until pretty much the end, whereas Alfie had been for all intents and purposes the equivalent of anencephalic for more than the last year of his short life.

 

[Matt Black]

Mrs Evans claimed a misdiagnoses:

Except even their own medical experts disagreed with them on this point.