all about 'ALL'

1 John
2 And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world

Maybe you should also define the word "whole".

And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole elect. (Not just part of the elect)

Make sense?

 

I only charge a single penny for my thoughts Allan .

 

:laugh: That was cute, I admit. :laugh:

But mine was freely given, just as it was freely recieved.:wavey:

Remember though - "I gave a nickle", not charged.

 

Isn't a workman worthy of his hire , Allan ?

 

Then you need to give up your theology and adapt to what scripture says.

You are implying that my interpretation of other scripture is driven by my theology, and is therefore not necessarily contradictory.

Here is a clear scripture that contradicts unlimited atonement:

Should I also mention that MANY are called but few chosen, not ALL are called, but many chosen?

Can we agree that "many" is not the same thing as "all"? Unless you want to find a way to force "many" to mean "all" in these passages (good luck), then all the free-willer "all" prooftexts cannot possibly be referring to every man who ever lived, lives or will live. All in those cases cannot mean "all" the way you want it to mean, otherwise it contradicts these clear scriptures that Jesus bore the sin of MANY and justified MANY.

Furthermore, if Jesus bore the sin of MANY, then how could "the whole world" mean every man who ever lived, lives or will live when the Bible says "and not for our sins only but for the sins of the whole world"?

No a-priori assumptions exist here. No warping scripture according to a theology or soteriology. The fact is simple. Many is not all. Many is not "the whole world" if what you mean by the whole world is everyone who ever lived, lives or will live. So you decide - which do you want to reinterpret to harmonize the two? I'll stick with the obvious.

 

Are you offering??

 

Nepetreley , your post #25 was spot on .

 

Yawn!! I maintain what has been maintained for the last 2000 years, same as you.

Again - Yawn!!
I said nothing about YOU np, you need to grow up a little.
It was a general statement regarding "all" of us.
I stated that your COMMENT could "get a PERSON into a lot of trouble"
There is a reason I started with this first and then stated "IF" your (in a general statement regarding the previous sentence's specified subject - PERSON)

Nope.

Again look at the context, all are called but not all are chosen. They are called at different times however and for different purposes. First it was to the Jewish people specifically but "all" could partake if they came under Judism. Then God sent to Call to "all" else with no specific people as His representives.

No it contradicts you theology, not scripture. CHrist IS the propitiation for "all" but is applied to the few. Unlimitied Atonement but Limited Redemption. So by application (which it the verse is ACTUALLY speaking of) "many" means some, but FTR - "many" can also mean "all" mankind.

I guess many does not mean "all" here huh. :laugh: Only some are dead in their trespasses and sins because of Adam, and since the writter used it specifically in one sence regarding many so to he meant it in the later. Even some other Calvinists agree with that! It is simply the proper mode of interpretation.

And secondly, your context deals with the Nation of Israel

By application upon those who believe., that is how.
You are the one that must reconsile the verses not me. :laugh:
He is the propitiation for our sins, and not ours ONLY, but the sins of the Whole World.

Look up the phrase "Whole World" and see how many times it is used to describe the elect. NONE!

Your theology??

The scripture proclaims a different Truth.

 

Spot is easly removed when seen in context and not proof-text. :wavey:

 

Allan , the English words "all" and "world' have as much variety as the word "spot' -- many meanings , depending on the context .

 

Sorry, I can't find the verse that says all are called but not all are chosen. My Bible says MANY are called but FEW are chosen.

I noticed you carefully avoided ALL of the scriptures I quoted. You only dealt with my side-comment about many are called. I think the reason you avoided them is obvious but I'm not going to waste my time arguing with you about it.

It doesn't have to refer to the elect in this case. It can refer to "from among all nations, including those you've never even heard of". Again, that's why translations often translate "all men" to "all peoples".

You can have the last word. Your rudeness and blindness aren't worth dealing with.

 

I don't get this. Didn't Christ actually become the substitutionary sacrifice for some, not just a potential substitute? Did He actually take away anyone's sins when He died?

When and where can "many" mean "all" mankind?
I didn't take time to look it up, that's why I'm asking.

 

Other than All will die, and All will be resurrected, and God will be All in All, y'all (by popular demand?) can leave me out of this one, altogether.

 

How about this?

Was Jesus a Man? Yes. Then Jesus did not die for all men. A limited atonement again proved.
Jesus did not draw Himself to Himself therefore He did not draw all men. 'all doesn't mean all' always, does it? No it doesn't. All fall short but Jesus the Man. All have gone astray but Jesus the Man.

In all these examples 'all' must be modified by Christ. All but One means not all.

Whatcha think, good a?

john.

 

In order to be saved one has to be drawn to Christ by the Father, right? Jesus didn't draw Himself to Himself so, Jesus wasn't saved????? :BangHead:

This is your most pitiful argument yet, John.

 

Did Jesus need saving Amy.G? Maybe you didn't understand the point? Was He a Man?

john.

 

Sorry, I didn't get the point obviously. It's hard for me to tell when you're kidding, since your posts are so 'out there' to me anyway.
And yes, Jesus was a man. He was and is also God.

 

Ed, John puts smileys all over every post!

 

There is often much truth in humor. His point is well taken, even if it's intended to be funny. Jesus is one exception. All cannot therefore mean all, because it's all minus one. This is true, even if it's kind of cute to pose it that way.