All Atonement is Limited by Something

[Gup20]

You still have only 3 choices. God saves and gets the glory. You save with God's help and split the glory. Or you save without God's help and get all the glory.

If I say to my child: "I will make you pancakes or waffles for breakfast.... but FYI, choose the waffles... they are amazing," do I get the glory for breakfast or does my child get the glory? I make them either way... but my child can choose which one they get. I still get the glory for breakfast, though my child makes a choice.

Similarly, God gives man a distinct binary choice; choose life and blessing or death and cursing. It does nothing to God's sovereignty for Him to give man the choice because He is still the one who makes it happen. God still gets the glory either way because He is the God with authority over the chooser. We don't get to, for example, choose NOT to make a choice... we dont' get to choose to not believe and still be saved... we are limited in our choices to the two, distinct, binary choices God gives us.

Completely and utterly free-will is a myth... another strawman... it's actually a binary choice.

 

[1689Dave]

If I say to my child: "I will make you pancakes or waffles for breakfast.... but FYI, choose the waffles... they are amazing," do I get the glory for breakfast or does my child get the glory? I make them either way... but my child can choose which one they get. I still get the glory for breakfast, though my child makes a choice.

Similarly, God gives man a distinct binary choice; choose life and blessing or death and cursing. It does nothing to God's sovereignty for Him to give man the choice because He is still the one who makes it happen. God still gets the glory either way because He is the God with authority over the chooser. We don't get to, for example, choose NOT to make a choice... we dont' get to choose to not believe and still be saved... we are limited in our choices to the two, distinct, binary choices God gives us.

Completely and utterly free-will is a myth... another strawman... it's actually a binary choice.

It's more like this. You are in a coma and are starving to death. Some kind soul pays your hospital bill and they feed you intravenously. You wake up eternally thankful for the kind soul saving your life. And you go and do likewise. = grace

 

[Gup20]

You try to turn the gospel into law and grace into works when you pair up the law with the gospel.

No, just the opposite... the gospel pre-dates and is apart from the Law. Stop trying to claim the law exerts any force on the covenant of faith.... it does not. The law speaks about faith as if it were speaking a parable.

Hos 12:10
I have also spoken to the prophets,
And I gave numerous visions,
And through the prophets I gave parables.

Gal 4:21-24 NASB 21 Tell me, you who want to be under law, do you not listen to the law? 22 For it is written that Abraham had two sons, one by the bondwoman and one by the free woman. 23 But the son by the bondwoman was born according to the flesh, and the son by the free woman through the promise. 24 This is allegorically speaking, for these [women] are two covenants: one [proceeding] from Mount Sinai bearing children who are to be slaves; she is Hagar.​

So Deuteronomy 30 absolutely talks about the covenant of faith as Paul talks about in Romans 10.

Gal 3:16-17 NASB 16 Now the promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed. He does not say, "And to seeds," as [referring] to many, but [rather] to one, "And to your seed," that is, Christ. 17 What I am saying is this: the Law, which came four hundred and thirty years later, does not invalidate a covenant previously ratified by God, so as to nullify the promise.​

Clearly, we see that the covenant of faith pre-dates the law by 430 years. Since faith in the gospel of Jesus Christ came 430 years before The Law of Moses, why wouldn't we expect The Law and The Prophets to testify about it? Just because something is written about faith in The Law doesn't make it legalism. Because faith came and was ratified by God 430 years before The Law, it coudln't be amended by or have conditions added to it by The Law. It is truly APART FROM The Law, whereas The Law has never existed apart from the covenant of Faith.

 

[Gup20]

It's more like this. You are in a coma and are starving to death. Some kind soul pays your hospital bill and they feed you intravenously. You wake up eternally thankful for the kind soul saving your life. And you go and do likewise. = grace

Except that Deuteronomy 30 clearly says it is a choice.

 

[Gup20]

You try to turn the gospel into law and grace into works when you pair up the law with the gospel.

Luk 24:44 Now He said to them, “These are My words which I spoke to you while I was still with you, that all things which are written about Me in the Law of Moses and the Prophets and the Psalms must be fulfilled.”

Would you say the same about Jesus? Isn't he turning the gospel into the Law by mentioning that The Law talks about Him?

Would you say the same about Paul who quotes from the Old Testament regarding salvation prolifically?

 

[atpollard]

Except that Deuteronomy 30 clearly says it is a choice.

Romans 3 says that everyone makes the wrong choice ...

Luk 24:44 Now He said to them, “These are My words which I spoke to you while I was still with you, that all things which are written about Me in the Law of Moses and the Prophets and the Psalms must be fulfilled.”

Would you say the same about Jesus? Isn't he turning the gospel into the Law by mentioning that The Law talks about Him?

Would you say the same about Paul who quotes from the Old Testament regarding salvation prolifically?

... Except Jesus. (Which, I think, is the point of the Gospel.)

 

[Gup20]

It's more like this. You are in a coma and are starving to death. Some kind soul pays your hospital bill and they feed you intravenously. You wake up eternally thankful for the kind soul saving your life. And you go and do likewise. = grace

Also, the coma analogy doesn't apply because the scripture that Paul quotes regarding the "righteousness which comes by faith" says that it is not too difficult for us to make the decision, and the decision for salvation is not made in heaven (where God is). So a better analogy is that we've been given the choice to eat and live or starve and die... and told it's better to eat and live, so we should choose life.

Deu 30:19 NASB 19 "I call heaven and earth to witness against you today, that I have set before you life and death, the blessing and the curse. So choose life in order that you may live, you and your descendants,

Rom 10:6 NASB 6 But the righteousness based on faith speaks as follows: "DO NOT SAY IN YOUR HEART, 'WHO WILL ASCEND INTO HEAVEN?' (that is, to bring Christ down),​

You are claiming that man is incapable of choosing because he must ascend into heaven to bring Christ down when you say he is incapable of making the choice. You are in direct violation of scripture. You are in direct violation of Romans 10 when you make the claim that man cannot make the choice... and Deuteronomy 30 and Romans 10 both say that you may not say this in your heart.

Paul says Deuteronomy 30 talks about the salvation which is by faith. Regarding the salvation which is by faith, Deu 30 says:

Deu 30:11-15 NASB 11 "For this commandment which I command you today is not too difficult for you, nor is it out of reach. 12 "It is not in heaven, that you should say, 'Who will go up to heaven for us to get it for us and make us hear it, that we may observe it?' 13 "Nor is it beyond the sea, that you should say, 'Who will cross the sea for us to get it for us and make us hear it, that we may observe it?' 14 "But the word is very near you, in your mouth and in your heart, that you may observe it. 15 "See, I have set before you today life and prosperity, and death and adversity;

 

[Gup20]

Romans 3 says that everyone makes the wrong choice ...

I can't find the words choose, choice, chosen in Romans 3... it says none are righteous. The choice is not to chose to be righteous... the choice is whether or not to believe the gospel.

... Except Jesus. (Which, I think, is the point of the Gospel.)

Haven't you read Romans 3?

Rom 3:21-22 NASB 21 But now apart from the Law [the] righteousness of God has been manifested, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, 22 even [the] righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those who believe; for there is no distinction;

Isn't Paul turning the gospel into the Law by saying the Law speaks of the righteousness of faith? (I'm asking rhetorically)

 

[MB]

This assumes that whole world means every individual.

Of course it does it can't mean anything less. Notice it does not say only the Calvinist Because God chose the world for Salvation it's his will that all be saved. Yet you will deny the truth of the gospel.
MB

 

[1689Dave]

Also, the coma analogy doesn't apply because the scripture that Paul quotes regarding the "righteousness which comes by faith" says that it is not too difficult for us to make the decision, and the decision for salvation is not made in heaven (where God is). So a better analogy is that we've been given the choice to eat and live or starve and die... and told it's better to eat and live, so we should choose life.

Deu 30:19 NASB 19 "I call heaven and earth to witness against you today, that I have set before you life and death, the blessing and the curse. So choose life in order that you may live, you and your descendants,

Rom 10:6 NASB 6 But the righteousness based on faith speaks as follows: "DO NOT SAY IN YOUR HEART, 'WHO WILL ASCEND INTO HEAVEN?' (that is, to bring Christ down),​

You are claiming that man is incapable of choosing because he must ascend into heaven to bring Christ down when you say he is incapable of making the choice. You are in direct violation of scripture. You are in direct violation of Romans 10 when you make the claim that man cannot make the choice... and Deuteronomy 30 and Romans 10 both say that you may not say this in your heart.

Paul says Deuteronomy 30 talks about the salvation which is by faith. Regarding the salvation which is by faith, Deu 30 says:

Deu 30:11-15 NASB 11 "For this commandment which I command you today is not too difficult for you, nor is it out of reach. 12 "It is not in heaven, that you should say, 'Who will go up to heaven for us to get it for us and make us hear it, that we may observe it?' 13 "Nor is it beyond the sea, that you should say, 'Who will cross the sea for us to get it for us and make us hear it, that we may observe it?' 14 "But the word is very near you, in your mouth and in your heart, that you may observe it. 15 "See, I have set before you today life and prosperity, and death and adversity;

“Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers, For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine;” 1 Timothy 1:9–10 (KJV 1900)

These did not save themselves being obedient. They only escaped sickness, war, and exile by being obedient. And brought wrath for disobedience.

 

[1689Dave]

Luk 24:44 Now He said to them, “These are My words which I spoke to you while I was still with you, that all things which are written about Me in the Law of Moses and the Prophets and the Psalms must be fulfilled.”

Would you say the same about Jesus? Isn't he turning the gospel into the Law by mentioning that The Law talks about Him?

Would you say the same about Paul who quotes from the Old Testament regarding salvation prolifically?

But the Gospel is not law. The prophecies tell about Christ.

 

[1689Dave]

Except that Deuteronomy 30 clearly says it is a choice.

It's not about salvation. It's about national survival.

 

[MB]

“Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers, For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine;” 1 Timothy 1:9–10 (KJV 1900)

These did not save themselves being obedient. They only escaped sickness, war, and exile by being obedient. And brought wrath for disobedience.

The only righteous people on earth are those who trust in Christ as there Savior. If you trust in Christ it's because you chose to.
MB

 

[1689Dave]

The only righteous people on earth are those who trust in Christ as there Savior. If you trust in Christ it's because you chose to.
MB

No, you have it backwards. He chose you to worship him.

 

[Gup20]

“Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers, For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine;” 1 Timothy 1:9–10 (KJV 1900)

These did not save themselves being obedient. They only escaped sickness, war, and exile by being obedient. And brought wrath for disobedience.

Rom 10:5-6 NASB 5 For Moses writes that the man who practices the righteousness which is based on law shall live by that righteousness. 6 But the righteousness based on faith speaks as follows: "DO NOT SAY IN YOUR HEART, 'WHO WILL ASCEND INTO HEAVEN?' (that is, to bring Christ down),​

The part Paul quotes as being what the righteousness of faith speaks is a quote from Deuteronomy 30.

Rom 3:21 NASB 21 But now apart from the Law [the] righteousness of God has been manifested, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets,​

Question: which parts of the Law do you suppose bare witness to the righteousness of faith?

Here's an interesting idea: how about we ask Paul which parts of the Law speaks about the righteousness based on Faith? OH for joy! He's already told us one in Romans 10!! It's Deuteronomy 30!

It's not about salvation. It's about national survival.

That conflicts with what Paul tells us about it in Romans 10. Paul specifically says Deut 30 is regarding the righteousness (salvation) based on faith.

No, you have it backwards. He chose you to worship him.

No that is incorrect... He chose Abraham and Abraham's descendants. This group has open enrollment based on whether or not we chose to have faith in Christ.

Deuteronomy 7:6
For you are a holy people to the LORD your God; the LORD your God has chosen you to be a people for His own possession out of all the peoples who are on the face of the earth.
7 The LORD did not set His love on you nor choose you because you were more in number than any of the peoples, for you were the fewest of all peoples,
8 but because the LORD loved you and kept the oath which He swore to your forefathers, the LORD brought you out by a mighty hand and redeemed you from the house of slavery, from the hand of Pharaoh king of Egypt.
9 Know therefore that the LORD your God, He is God, the faithful God, who keeps His covenant and His lovingkindness to a thousandth generation with those who love Him and keep His commandments;

Nehemiah 9:7
You are the LORD God, Who chose Abram And brought him out from Ur of the Chaldees, And gave him the name Abraham.
8 You found his heart faithful before You, And made a covenant with him To give him the land of the Canaanite, Of the Hittite and the Amorite, Of the Perizzite, the Jebusite and the Girgashite— To give it to his descendants. And You have fulfilled Your promise, For You are righteous.

John 6:64
But there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who it was that would betray Him.
65 And He was saying, “For this reason I have said to you, that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted him from the Father.”

1Peter 1:2
[chosen] according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, by the sanctifying work of the Spirit, to obey Jesus Christ and be sprinkled with His blood: May grace and peace be yours in the fullest measure.​

John Calvin himself said of God’s predestined elect, “God has attested this [predestination] not only in individual persons, but has given us an example of it in the whole offspring of Abraham."

So even John Calvin recognized that God chose Abraham’s descendants as a group, and not each person individually. God’s elect (or chosen) are those who inherit the oath he made with Abraham. Those who are qualified as heirs of the promise or covenant.

Galatians 3:7
Therefore, be sure that it is those who are of faith who are sons of Abraham.

Galatians 3:9
So then those who are of faith are blessed with Abraham, the believer.

Galatians 3:18
For if the inheritance is based on law, it is no longer based on a promise; but God has granted it to Abraham by means of a promise.

Galatians 3:29
And if you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's descendants, heirs according to promise.

Romans 9:4
who are Israelites, to whom belongs the adoption as sons, and the glory and the covenants and the giving of the Law and the temple service and the promises,
5 whose are the fathers, and from whom is the Christ according to the flesh, who is over all, God blessed forever. Amen.
6 But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For they are not all Israel who are descended from Israel;
7 nor are they all children because they are Abraham's descendants, but: "THROUGH ISAAC YOUR DESCENDANTS WILL BE NAMED."
8 That is, it is not the children of the flesh who are children of God, but the children of the promise are regarded as descendants.​

Calvin didn’t realize that all Christians are saved by becoming qualified as part of the group of the “offspring of Abraham.” He mistakenly thought we all obtain righteousness the same way Abraham did – directly for his faith. However, this would mean that Christ (or some other sinless figures) would have to die once for each person who was saved – a life for a life. In the same way that we all inherited death from Adam, so too have we all inherited Christ’s righteousness. Christ directly exchanged (redeemed) His righteousness with Abraham, and then God promised Abraham that this righteousness would be an inheritance to all his descendants.

As Deuteronomy 30 says, you don't need to be regenerated to make the choice... it is a choice God commands us to make, not a choice God makes in heaven.

 

[MB]

No, you have it backwards. He chose you to worship him.

Actually it is you that has it Backwards.
MB

 

[1689Dave]

Rom 10:5-6 NASB 5 For Moses writes that the man who practices the righteousness which is based on law shall live by that righteousness. 6 But the righteousness based on faith speaks as follows: "DO NOT SAY IN YOUR HEART, 'WHO WILL ASCEND INTO HEAVEN?' (that is, to bring Christ down),​

The part Paul quotes as being what the righteousness of faith speaks is a quote from Deuteronomy 30.

Rom 3:21 NASB 21 But now apart from the Law [the] righteousness of God has been manifested, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets,​

Question: which parts of the Law do you suppose bare witness to the righteousness of faith?

Here's an interesting idea: how about we ask Paul which parts of the Law speaks about the righteousness based on Faith? OH for joy! He's already told us one in Romans 10!! It's Deuteronomy 30!



That conflicts with what Paul tells us about it in Romans 10. Paul specifically says Deut 30 is regarding the righteousness (salvation) based on faith.



No that is incorrect... He chose Abraham and Abraham's descendants. This group has open enrollment based on whether or not we chose to have faith in Christ.

Deuteronomy 7:6
For you are a holy people to the LORD your God; the LORD your God has chosen you to be a people for His own possession out of all the peoples who are on the face of the earth.
7 The LORD did not set His love on you nor choose you because you were more in number than any of the peoples, for you were the fewest of all peoples,
8 but because the LORD loved you and kept the oath which He swore to your forefathers, the LORD brought you out by a mighty hand and redeemed you from the house of slavery, from the hand of Pharaoh king of Egypt.
9 Know therefore that the LORD your God, He is God, the faithful God, who keeps His covenant and His lovingkindness to a thousandth generation with those who love Him and keep His commandments;

Nehemiah 9:7
You are the LORD God, Who chose Abram And brought him out from Ur of the Chaldees, And gave him the name Abraham.
8 You found his heart faithful before You, And made a covenant with him To give him the land of the Canaanite, Of the Hittite and the Amorite, Of the Perizzite, the Jebusite and the Girgashite— To give it to his descendants. And You have fulfilled Your promise, For You are righteous.

John 6:64
But there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who it was that would betray Him.
65 And He was saying, “For this reason I have said to you, that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted him from the Father.”

1Peter 1:2
[chosen] according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, by the sanctifying work of the Spirit, to obey Jesus Christ and be sprinkled with His blood: May grace and peace be yours in the fullest measure.​

John Calvin himself said of God’s predestined elect, “God has attested this [predestination] not only in individual persons, but has given us an example of it in the whole offspring of Abraham."

So even John Calvin recognized that God chose Abraham’s descendants as a group, and not each person individually. God’s elect (or chosen) are those who inherit the oath he made with Abraham. Those who are qualified as heirs of the promise or covenant.

Galatians 3:7
Therefore, be sure that it is those who are of faith who are sons of Abraham.

Galatians 3:9
So then those who are of faith are blessed with Abraham, the believer.

Galatians 3:18
For if the inheritance is based on law, it is no longer based on a promise; but God has granted it to Abraham by means of a promise.

Galatians 3:29
And if you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's descendants, heirs according to promise.

Romans 9:4
who are Israelites, to whom belongs the adoption as sons, and the glory and the covenants and the giving of the Law and the temple service and the promises,
5 whose are the fathers, and from whom is the Christ according to the flesh, who is over all, God blessed forever. Amen.
6 But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For they are not all Israel who are descended from Israel;
7 nor are they all children because they are Abraham's descendants, but: "THROUGH ISAAC YOUR DESCENDANTS WILL BE NAMED."
8 That is, it is not the children of the flesh who are children of God, but the children of the promise are regarded as descendants.​

Calvin didn’t realize that all Christians are saved by becoming qualified as part of the group of the “offspring of Abraham.” He mistakenly thought we all obtain righteousness the same way Abraham did – directly for his faith. However, this would mean that Christ (or some other sinless figures) would have to die once for each person who was saved – a life for a life. In the same way that we all inherited death from Adam, so too have we all inherited Christ’s righteousness. Christ directly exchanged (redeemed) His righteousness with Abraham, and then God promised Abraham that this righteousness would be an inheritance to all his descendants.

As Deuteronomy 30 says, you don't need to be regenerated to make the choice... it is a choice God commands us to make, not a choice God makes in heaven.

The gospel is not law. You turn it into law trying to use Law verses and apply them to the gospel.

 

[1689Dave]

Actually it is you that has it Backwards.
MB

“You did not choose Me, but I chose you. I appointed you that you should go out and produce fruit and that your fruit should remain, so that whatever you ask the Father in My name, He will give you.” John 15:16 (HCSB)

 

[Gup20]

The gospel is not law. You turn it into law trying to use Law verses and apply them to the gospel.

Nope...I'm quoting Paul. Your accusations are with him and God... not with me.

But I'm curious... you never answered my question; Since Romans 3:21 says that the rightousness based on faith is witnessed by the Law and the Prophets... I'm curious what parts of the law you think bare witness to the righteousness of faith? Based on your comments, it seems you feel that Romans 3:21 and Luke 24:44 are a lie.

 

[1689Dave]

Nope...I'm quoting Paul. Your accusations are with him and God... not with me.

But I'm curious... you never answered my question; Since Romans 3:21 says that the rightousness based on faith is witnessed by the Law and the Prophets... I'm curious what parts of the law you think bare witness to the righteousness of faith? Based on your comments, it seems you feel that Romans 3:21 is a lie.

“But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;” Romans 3:21 (KJV 1900)

If righteousness comes without the law, the law defining and contrasting sin, why try to turn the gospel into law and have righteousness come according to obedience (works)?