All Atonement is Limited by Something

[Gup20]

“But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;” Romans 3:21 (KJV 1900)

If righteousness comes without the law, the law defining and contrasting sin, why try to turn the gospel into law and have righteousness come according to obedience (works)?

Romans 3:21 (Paul) and Luke 24:44 (Jesus) both say that The Law is a witness to the righteosness based on faith, and salvation... and that they talk about Jesus. The question remains unanswered; which parts of The Law talk about the salvation which comes by faith?

 

[1689Dave]

Romans 3:21 (Paul) and Luke 24:44 (Jesus) both say that The Law is a witness to the righteosness based on faith, and salvation... and that they talk about Jesus. The question remains unanswered; which parts of The Law talk about the salvation which comes by faith?

Law = Torah or Ten Commandments?

 

[Gup20]

Law = Torah or Ten Commandments?

Yes.

How about this one:

Gal 3:3-9 NASB 3 Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh? 4 Did you suffer so many things in vain--if indeed it was in vain? 5 So then, does He who provides you with the Spirit and works miracles among you, do it by the works of the Law, or by hearing with faith? 6 Even so Abraham BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS RECKONED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS. 7 Therefore, be sure that it is those who are of faith who are sons of Abraham. 8 The Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, [saying,] "ALL THE NATIONS WILL BE BLESSED IN YOU." 9 So then those who are of faith are blessed with Abraham, the believer.​

Does The Law (Genesis 15, 17) quoted here by Paul bare witness to salvation based on faith in the gospel? The Law gives us the literal history of the covenant of faith in the gospel... showing us the first person made righteous by grace through faith in the gospel of Jesus Christ... isn't this an example of The Law baring witness to the salvation which is through faith?

Rom 4:16 NASB 16 For this reason [it is] by faith, in order that [it may be] in accordance with grace, so that the promise will be guaranteed to all the descendants, not only to those who are of the Law, but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all,​

 

[1689Dave]

Yes.

How about this one:

Gal 3:3-9 NASB 3 Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh? 4 Did you suffer so many things in vain--if indeed it was in vain? 5 So then, does He who provides you with the Spirit and works miracles among you, do it by the works of the Law, or by hearing with faith? 6 Even so Abraham BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS RECKONED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS. 7 Therefore, be sure that it is those who are of faith who are sons of Abraham. 8 The Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, [saying,] "ALL THE NATIONS WILL BE BLESSED IN YOU." 9 So then those who are of faith are blessed with Abraham, the believer.​

Does The Law (Genesis 15, 17) quoted here by Paul bare witness to salvation based on faith in the gospel? The Law gives us the literal history of the covenant of faith in the gospel... showing us the first person made righteous by grace through faith in the gospel of Jesus Christ... isn't this an example of The Law baring witness to the salvation which is through faith?

Rom 4:16 NASB 16 For this reason [it is] by faith, in order that [it may be] in accordance with grace, so that the promise will be guaranteed to all the descendants, not only to those who are of the Law, but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all,​

It doesn't matter how you dress it up. If you try to make works of the law the condition for salvation, you destroy the gospel. And using OT legalistic passages to illustrate our relationship to the gospel does exactly that.

 

[Gup20]

It doesn't matter how you dress it up. If you try to make works of the law the condition for salvation, you destroy the gospel. And using OT legalistic passages to illustrate our relationship to the gospel does exactly that.

No... no one is making works of the law a condition for salvation. I agree with you... making ANY works a condition of salvation would destroy the gospel. However, faith is not a work.

[Gal 3:5 NASB] 5 So then, does He who provides you with the Spirit and works miracles among you, do it by the works of the Law, or by hearing with faith?

[Rom 4:5 NASB] 5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness,

Here we see the contrast between works of the law and faith... thus confirming that faith is not a work. Which passages from The Law (the Torah) do you think bare witness to the salvation by grace through faith?

 

[Gup20]

It doesn't matter how you dress it up. If you try to make works of the law the condition for salvation, you destroy the gospel. And using OT legalistic passages to illustrate our relationship to the gospel does exactly that.

My next question is "why faith." Why is faith a qualifier for salvation? Is God so insecure that He needs us to believe in Him?

 

[Reformed1689]

Of course it does it can't mean anything less. Notice it does not say only the Calvinist Because God chose the world for Salvation it's his will that all be saved. Yet you will deny the truth of the gospel.
MB

No, not of course. It can (and does in this situation) mean people groups. World does not always equal every individual. To try and argue such nonsense is foolish.

 

[1689Dave]

My next question is "why faith." Why is faith a qualifier for salvation? Is God so insecure that He needs us to believe in Him?

Faith is proof of salvation, a fruit of the Holy Spirit.

 

[1689Dave]

No... no one is making works of the law a condition for salvation. I agree with you... making ANY works a condition of salvation would destroy the gospel. However, faith is not a work.

[Gal 3:5 NASB] 5 So then, does He who provides you with the Spirit and works miracles among you, do it by the works of the Law, or by hearing with faith?

[Rom 4:5 NASB] 5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness,

Here we see the contrast between works of the law and faith... thus confirming that faith is not a work. Which passages from The Law (the Torah) do you think bare witness to the salvation by grace through faith?

You began using works of the Law as pertaining to the gospel. If you get the difference between law and gospel straight, things will make more sense.

 

[Gup20]

Faith is proof of salvation, a fruit of the Holy Spirit.

Your Calvinist dogma aside, the question still remains... why is faith the proof and not some other indicator?

 

[Gup20]

You began using works of the Law as pertaining to the gospel. If you get the difference between law and gospel straight, things will make more sense.

No, I’ve not done this. I can point to the distinction between faith and works, yet the Calvinist cannot (which is probably why you’re so confused). To the Calvinist, faith is a work. Yet the Bible makes it clear that faith is not a work. I can also use the law to show why salvation is by faith alone apart from the law... and why faith and not some other indicator.

Jesus and Paul both indicated that the Law testifies of the salvation which is based on faith. I still have yet to see your answer to the question of where in the Torah you believe this witness occurs.

No one uses The Law more to demonstrate how faith works than Paul. It is he whom I’ve been quoting and he whom you’ve been disagreeing with. Anywhere Paul talks about faith it isn’t more than several verses removed from Paul quoting the Torah as his source for that doctrine. Literally every single doctrine of the New Testament has it’s root in Genesis 1-11.

The law is not of faith, but the law testifies of faith abundantly. Why then do you condemn Paul for using The Law to defend salvation by faith alone?

Galatians 4:21-24 (NASB) 21 Tell me, you who want to be under law, do you not listen to the law? 22 For it is written that Abraham had two sons, one by the bondwoman and one by the free woman. 23 But the son by the bondwoman was born according to the flesh, and the son by the free woman through the promise. 24 This is allegorically speaking, for these women are two covenants: one proceeding from Mount Sinai bearing children who are to be slaves; she is Hagar. 25 Now this Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia and corresponds to the present Jerusalem, for she is in slavery with her children. 26 But the Jerusalem above is free; she is our mother. 27 For it is written, "REJOICE, BARREN WOMAN WHO DOES NOT BEAR; BREAK FORTH AND SHOUT, YOU WHO ARE NOT IN LABOR; FOR MORE NUMEROUS ARE THE CHILDREN OF THE DESOLATE THAN OF THE ONE WHO HAS A HUSBAND." 28 And you brethren, like Isaac, are children of promise. 29 But as at that time he who was born according to the flesh persecuted him who was born according to the Spirit, so it is now also. 30 But what does the Scripture say? "CAST OUT THE BONDWOMAN AND HER SON, FOR THE SON OF THE BONDWOMAN SHALL NOT BE AN HEIR WITH THE SON OF THE FREE WOMAN." 31 So then, brethren, we are not children of a bondwoman, but of the free woman.

Do you condemn Paul here as a legalistic who conflates The Law with faith because he quotes from the Torah and Isaiah to prove his points?

 

[Reformed1689]

Your Calvinist dogma aside, the question still remains... why is faith the proof and not some other indicator?

Faith is the evidence of things not seen. Hebrews 11

 

[Van]

This assumes that whole world means every individual.

Calvinist rewrite of 1 John 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of [some of] the whole world.

This assumes all Calvinists deny the the whole world does not leave out part of it.

 

[MB]

No, not of course. It can (and does in this situation) mean people groups. World does not always equal every individual. To try and argue such nonsense is foolish.

Nonsense to you maybe. In the Greek it's cosmos that's even more than you think. The dictionary says it's all encompassing. .
Peter wrote.
2Pe 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
Of course you'll deny it but one thing for sure you can't ever say you weren't told.
MB

 

[atpollard]

Your Calvinist dogma aside, the question still remains... why is faith the proof and not some other indicator?

[Romans 10:9-10 NIV] If you declare with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved.​

These verses mean a lot to me on a personal level. I lean on them with all of my weight for my relationship with God.

Declaring with your mouth that “Jesus is Lord” always carried for me, multiple meanings. On one level, it is an acknowledgement that Jesus is The LORD (as in God himself). At the same time, Jesus is more than The God, Jesus is also my God (as in “as for me and my house, we will serve the Lord Jesus Christ). In addition to acknowledging Jesus’ Omni-everything qualities, I am also declaring with my mouth that Jesus is my Lord and master, I am a bondservant to His will (rather than God being bound to obey my will). Declaring involves more than a statement of lip service, it is a binding oath. One must not merely say it, one must mean it.

One cannot sincerely declare what one does not believe. If I did not believe that God raised Jesus from the dead, than how could I declare Jesus as Lord (or LORD)? With the heart we believe and are justified, and with the mouth we profess our faith and are saved.

Faith is the proof, because Paul assures us that if we Believe we are justified and if we profess we are saved. Without Belief, there can be no Profession a s FAITH is the gift of God to believe. So Faith is the Proof.

 

[Reformed1689]

Calvinist rewrite of 1 John 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of [some of] the whole world.

This assumes all Calvinists deny the the whole world does not leave out part of it.

Whole world doesn't mean individuals necessarily. Do you deny that there are times when whole world does not mean every individual?

Nonsense to you maybe. In the Greek it's cosmos that's even more than you think. The dictionary says it's all encompassing. .
Peter wrote.
2Pe 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
Of course you'll deny it but one thing for sure you can't ever say you weren't told.
MB

You need to check the context of 2 Peter.

 

[1689Dave]

No, I’ve not done this. I can point to the distinction between faith and works, yet the Calvinist cannot (which is probably why you’re so confused). To the Calvinist, faith is a work. Yet the Bible makes it clear that faith is not a work. I can also use the law to show why salvation is by faith alone apart from the law... and why faith and not some other indicator.

Jesus and Paul both indicated that the Law testifies of the salvation which is based on faith. I still have yet to see your answer to the question of where in the Torah you believe this witness occurs.

No one uses The Law more to demonstrate how faith works than Paul. It is he whom I’ve been quoting and he whom you’ve been disagreeing with. Anywhere Paul talks about faith it isn’t more than several verses removed from Paul quoting the Torah as his source for that doctrine. Literally every single doctrine of the New Testament has it’s root in Genesis 1-11.

The law is not of faith, but the law testifies of faith abundantly. Why then do you condemn Paul for using The Law to defend salvation by faith alone?

Galatians 4:21-24 (NASB) 21 Tell me, you who want to be under law, do you not listen to the law? 22 For it is written that Abraham had two sons, one by the bondwoman and one by the free woman. 23 But the son by the bondwoman was born according to the flesh, and the son by the free woman through the promise. 24 This is allegorically speaking, for these women are two covenants: one proceeding from Mount Sinai bearing children who are to be slaves; she is Hagar. 25 Now this Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia and corresponds to the present Jerusalem, for she is in slavery with her children. 26 But the Jerusalem above is free; she is our mother. 27 For it is written, "REJOICE, BARREN WOMAN WHO DOES NOT BEAR; BREAK FORTH AND SHOUT, YOU WHO ARE NOT IN LABOR; FOR MORE NUMEROUS ARE THE CHILDREN OF THE DESOLATE THAN OF THE ONE WHO HAS A HUSBAND." 28 And you brethren, like Isaac, are children of promise. 29 But as at that time he who was born according to the flesh persecuted him who was born according to the Spirit, so it is now also. 30 But what does the Scripture say? "CAST OUT THE BONDWOMAN AND HER SON, FOR THE SON OF THE BONDWOMAN SHALL NOT BE AN HEIR WITH THE SON OF THE FREE WOMAN." 31 So then, brethren, we are not children of a bondwoman, but of the free woman.

Do you condemn Paul here as a legalistic who conflates The Law with faith because he quotes from the Torah and Isaiah to prove his points?

When you get grace and works straight it will all make sense to you.

 

[1689Dave]

Your Calvinist dogma aside, the question still remains... why is faith the proof and not some other indicator?

Jesus says whoever believes has eternal life.

 

[Gup20]

Faith is the evidence of things not seen. Hebrews 11

The question is “Why is faith the qualifier for salvation & not any other trait or indicator?”

 

[Gup20]

[Romans 10:9-10 NIV] If you declare with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved.​

These verses mean a lot to me on a personal level. I lean on them with all of my weight for my relationship with God.

Did you realize in Romans 10 Paul is talking about the “righteous which comes by faith” and this whole passage is Paul quoting from Deuteronomy 30? So Deuteronomy 30 is about faith.

Deuteronomy 30:1 (NASB) "So it shall be when all of these things have come upon you, the blessing and the curse which I have set before you, and you call them to mind in all nations where the LORD your God has banished you,

Deuteronomy 30:6 (NASB) "Moreover the LORD your God will circumcise your heart and the heart of your descendants, to love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul, so that you may live.

Deuteronomy 30:11-15 (NASB) 11 "For this commandment which I command you today is not too difficult for you, nor is it out of reach. 12 "It is not in heaven, that you should say, 'Who will go up to heaven for us to get it for us and make us hear it, that we may observe it?' 13 "Nor is it beyond the sea, that you should say, 'Who will cross the sea for us to get it for us and make us hear it, that we may observe it?' 14 "But the word is very near you, in your mouth and in your heart, that you may observe it. 15 "See, I have set before you today life and prosperity, and death and adversity;

Deuteronomy 30:19 (NASB) "I call heaven and earth to witness against you today, that I have set before you life and death, the blessing and the curse. So choose life in order that you may live, you and your descendants,​

And we know this is about faith because Paul quotes this passage & tells us it’s about faith:

Romans 10:5-11 (NASB) 5 For Moses writes that the man who practices the righteousness which is based on law shall live by that righteousness. 6 But the righteousness based on faith speaks as follows: "DO NOT SAY IN YOUR HEART, 'WHO WILL ASCEND INTO HEAVEN?' (that is, to bring Christ down), 7 or 'WHO WILL DESCEND INTO THE ABYSS?' (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead)." 8 But what does it say? "THE WORD IS NEAR YOU, IN YOUR MOUTH AND IN YOUR HEART"--that is, the word of faith which we are preaching, 9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation. 11 For the Scripture says, "WHOEVER BELIEVES IN HIM WILL NOT BE DISAPPOINTED."​

The capitalized portions are the quotes from the Old Testament.

So we know that faith is a human choice.

Faith is the proof, because Paul assures us that if we Believe we are justified and if we profess we are saved. Without Belief, there can be no Profession a s FAITH is the gift of God to believe. So Faith is the Proof.

The reason it is faith & not some other trait is because faith is how we qualify as the adopted descendants of Abraham & inherit the righteousness he was given in Genesis 15:5-6 which was promised as an everlasting inheritance to his descendants in Genesis 17:7.

When we have the same faith in the gospel of Jesus Christ that he had (Gal 3:7-9), we become qualified as adopted heirs (Rom 8:15-17, Gal 3:8,29). Faith is the qualifier because this was the pattern of righteousness by grace through faith in the gospel of Christ that God established with his covenant of faith with Abraham.