All have sinned when Adam sinned - Rom. 5:12-19

[The Biblicist]

I think you have learned well what you have been taught.

Ah, wrong! I was not taught this by anyone. I was taught this by simply doing proper exegesis of scripture and the hard work of rightly dividing the word of truth.

The position we have proposed are not Baptist.

You better believe it is not and thank God you are not among our churches teaching this nonsense.

You believe in personal responsibility, a key provision of Baptist doctrine yet you blame Adam for your sin

No, I do not. I blame mankind for their sin nature as they existed as one undivided human nature in one man just as Paul tells you over and over and over again in Romans 5:12-19. We are held accountable for our own personal sins as individuals.

 

[The Biblicist]

Nicely played! Really got them there, didn't you?

No playing at all, just thankful this nonsense is not taught in Baptist churches and those that hold it are not pastors or teachers in any Baptist church.

 

[loDebar]

Ah, wrong! I was not taught this by anyone. I was taught this by simply doing proper exegesis of scripture and the hard work of rightly dividing the word of truth.



You better believe it is not and thank God you are not among our churches teaching this nonsense.
I know of no churches with this doctrine

No, I do not. I blame mankind for their sin nature as they existed as one undivided human nature in one man just as Paul tells you over and over and over again in Romans 5:12-19. We are held accountable for our own personal sins as individuals.

Self taught are usually the strongest defenders of their position but not the best students of anything they have not concluded themselves

I made a mistake, earlier, I blame spellcheck. the position you support is NOT Baptist , it is taught by many,
It is also a trick of the devil for you not to accept responsibility for your actions. Are you solely responsible for you sins?

If you do not believe in personal responsibility you are NOT Baptist

I know of no churches that teaches we are the bad guys in the narrative

 

[loDebar]

No playing at all, just thankful this nonsense is not taught in Baptist churches and those that hold it are not pastors or teachers in any Baptist church.

I have taught in a Baptist church , but not this, It does not in any way subvert the Baptist doctrine, It expands it,
The things you hold fast on are not Baptist.

Did you retire from the ministry?

 

[MB]

I hope neither of you guys are pastors or teachers or any official position in any Baptist church as that would be an utter and complete travesty.

Not all Baptist accept what you believe either. Calvinism is not original Baptist doctrine.Total depravity is not in scripture neither is any of the other Calvinist doctrines. The doctrine of Jesus Christ is the only true doctrine and it comes straight from scripture just as stated not reinterpreted by some over educated preacher who is so full of himself that he is convinced he is never wrong. The simplicity of the gospel is for every man woman and child in the world. Yet Calvinism seeks to make Salvation so impossible the average person just gives up..
MB

 

[loDebar]

Not all Baptist accept what you believe either. Calvinism is not original Baptist doctrine.Total depravity is not in scripture neither is any of the other Calvinist doctrines. The doctrine of Jesus Christ is the only true doctrine and it comes straight from scripture just as stated not reinterpreted by some over educated preacher who is so full of himself that he is convinced he is never wrong. The simplicity of the gospel is for every man woman and child in the world. Yet Calvinism seeks to make Salvation so impossible the average person just gives up..
MB

He is self taught, strong in his convictions. Usually not because their true but hat he has embraced them as his own .
This type of personality is desirable as a machinist, mechanic, esp. airplane, Military or any job where knowing details are important

 

[MB]

Ah, wrong! I was not taught this by anyone. I was taught this by simply doing proper exegesis of scripture and the hard work of rightly dividing the word of truth.

I don't believe your statement here simply because Calvinism cannot be found in scripture.

You better believe it is not and thank God you are not among our churches teaching this nonsense.

The wise confounded.

No, I do not. I blame mankind for their sin nature as they existed as one undivided human nature in one man just as Paul tells you over and over and over again in Romans 5:12-19. We are held accountable for our own personal sins as individuals.

Man has a sinful nature but it isn't what Calvinist claim. They can respond to the gospel when they hear it and they can hear it Act 28:28 Being disable from hearing is false. You keep relying on Paul for every thing why not rely on God?
MB

 

[The Biblicist]

I don't believe your statement here simply because Calvinism cannot be found in scripture.




Man has a sinful nature but it isn't what Calvinist claim. They can respond to the gospel when they hear it and they can hear it Act 28:28 Being disable from hearing is false. You keep relying on Paul for every thing why not rely on God?
MB

Your problem is that you are so busy fighting a system (Calvinism) that you can't objectively deal with scriptures. Put aside your biases and deal with the scripture in an objective manner strictly on the basis of sound principles of exegesis. You have not been able to do that but you deal with scriptues just like the cults do (JW's, Mormon's, SDA, etc.) by pitting scripture against scripture, jerking scripture out of context, proof texting, etc. Just look at the contex of each verse and determine by context what the writer is saying. You are not doing that.

 

[InTheLight]

Put aside your biases and deal with the scripture in an objective manner strictly on the basis of sound principles of exegesis. You have not been able to do that but you deal with scriptues just like the cults do (JW's, Mormon's, SDA, etc.) by pitting scripture against scripture, jerking scripture out of context, proof texting, etc. Just look at the contex of each verse and determine by context what the writer is saying. You are not doing that.

Look in the mirror when you say stuff like that, will ya?

 

[The Biblicist]

I have taught in a Baptist church , but not this, It does not in any way subvert the Baptist doctrine, It expands it,
The things you hold fast on are not Baptist.

Did you retire from the ministry?

I am always open to any text that is interpreted by sound principles of exegesis within the framework of its immediate and overall context. I have never seen you or your friend approach scripture in this manner. You seem to approach scripture by proof texting or pitting scripture against scripture.

 

[The Biblicist]

Look in the mirror when you say stuff like that, will ya?

More than happy too! Just present evidence that has a sound exegetical basis. I have only seen proof texting, pitting scripture against scripture or just hopping from text to texts in contrary contexts.

 

[MB]

Question. Christ finished paying for sins prior to His physical death (John 19:28). Adam and Eve died according to what God had warned (Genesis 2:17) prior to being removed from the garden. Are you denying these things?

I had to come back to this post because of the above underlined. There is no forgiveness of sin's with out the shedding of blood. Christ' death was required by God for our sins to be forgiven. Christ had to lay down His own life for our sins.
MB

 

[loDebar]

I am always open to any text that is interpreted by sound principles of exegesis within the framework of its immediate and overall context. I have never seen you or your friend approach scripture in this manner. You seem to approach scripture by proof texting or pitting scripture against scripture.

no you are not

Please explain this verse in reference to you claim of Romans

Jhn 8:15
Ye judge after the flesh; I judge no man.
and
Jhn 3:18
He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Was Adam condemned already?

 

[MB]

Your problem is that you are so busy fighting a system (Calvinism) that you can't objectively deal with scriptures. Put aside your biases and deal with the scripture in an objective manner strictly on the basis of sound principles of exegesis. You have not been able to do that but you deal with scriptues just like the cults do (JW's, Mormon's, SDA, etc.) by pitting scripture against scripture, jerking scripture out of context, proof texting, etc. Just look at the contex of each verse and determine by context what the writer is saying. You are not doing that.

Can't prove me wrong?
Calvinism is the old doctrine of Catholicism. It has been wrong ever since Augustine thought it up. Your ridicule of me is appreciated. Christ said we would be hated because they hated Him. I consider your insults a blessing.
MB

 

[Martin Marprelate]

I don't believe your statement here simply because Calvinism cannot be found in scripture.

If you are looking for the word 'Calvinism' in the Bible, you won't find it, but if you're looking for the doctrine, it's all over both Testaments.

Man has a sinful nature but it isn't what Calvinist claim. They can respond to the gospel when they hear it and they can hear it Act 28:28 Being disable from hearing is false. You keep relying on Paul for every thing why not rely on God?
MB

What is it about 'dead' that you guys don't understand. Look! Lazarus is dead. He's been in the tomb for four days. You can preach to Lazarus; you can tell him how he didn't ought to be dead, and the unfortunate consequences of death. You can tell him how much better it would be if he were alive. You can tell him anything you want, but he won't hear you. He's dead you see.

And it's actually worse than that, because, quite frankly, Lazarus is a stinker (John 11:39). He in a bad odour with God; he's not only dead, but dead in trespasses and sins.

But when the Lord Jesus says, "Lazarus, come forth!" Forth he will come, and he won't be stinking any more. It's called monergism: the almighty power of God who alone can raise the dead, both physical and spiritual.

 

[The Biblicist]

no you are not

Please explain this verse in reference to you claim of Romans

Jhn 8:15
Ye judge after the flesh; I judge no man.
and
Jhn 3:18
He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Was Adam condemned already?

I have explained this to you already and your response was? ZERO! Now you want me to do it again?

Let me try again. Do you believe in two comings of Christ? Do you believe that he came the first time as Savior? Do you believe that he comes the Second time is King of kings and Judge? If you don't believe these two things there is little value in talking to you about these texts.

Let me suppose you do believe in two comings for these two different reasons. So, his first coming he did not come as Judge but as Savior. Why come as Savior if man was not already condemned (Jn. 3:17) and needed salvation?

Do you believe man is born as a believer from birth or do you believe they come into this world in unbelief and need to be converted? Unbelief is a sin as much as lying is a sin. Jesus came to save sinners but you can't be a sinner unless you are condemned by the Law as a violator of the law as the violation of the law is sin. Do you believe the Law commanded men to love the Lord their God with all their heart and strength? Does an human come into this world in obedience to that? Or do they come into this world in unbelief.

We have provided you about ten clear scriptures that teach babies are subject to death from the womb and are sinners by nature from birth - thus "condemned already" as death is the condemnation for sin and one cannot be subject to death if they are not a sinner.

Did you read John 3:36? "the wrath abideth" - present tense. Wrath is God's response to sinners who violate his law. Unbelief is a violation of God's law.

The Second coming he comes as Judge and then he will judge all men.

 

[The Biblicist]

Can't prove me wrong?
Calvinism is the old doctrine of Catholicism. It has been wrong ever since Augustine thought it up. Your ridicule of me is appreciated. Christ said we would be hated because they hated Him. I consider your insults a blessing.
MB

Ok, fine, believe what you want. I am through with this discussion because there is no real discussion on your part. You now have become another member of my ignore list.

 

[loDebar]

I have explained this to you already and your response was? ZERO! Now you want me to do it again?

Let me try again. Do you believe in two comings of Christ? Do you believe that he came the first time as Savior? Do you believe that he comes the Second time is King of kings and Judge? If you don't believe these two things there is little value in talking to you about these texts.

Let me suppose you do believe in two comings for these two different reasons. So, his first coming he did not come as Judge but as Savior. Why come as Savior if man was not already condemned (Jn. 3:17) and needed salvation?

Do you believe man is born as a believer from birth or do you believe they come into this world in unbelief and need to be converted? Unbelief is a sin as much as lying is a sin. Jesus came to save sinners but you can't be a sinner unless you are condemned by the Law as a violator of the law as the violation of the law is sin. Do you believe the Law commanded men to love the Lord their God with all their heart and strength? Does an human come into this world in obedience to that? Or do they come into this world in unbelief.

We have provided you about ten clear scriptures that teach babies are subject to death from the womb and are sinners by nature from birth - thus "condemned already" as death is the condemnation for sin and one cannot be subject to death if they are not a sinner.

Did you read John 3:36? "the wrath abideth" - present tense. Wrath is God's response to sinners who violate his law. Unbelief is a violation of God's law.

The Second coming he comes as Judge and then he will judge all men.

not as a man, will He?

If a man is not judged yet how is he condemned already?

The Law does not even apply to you, It was given to the Israelite between Moses and Jesus

 

[MB]

If you are looking for the word 'Calvinism' in the Bible, you won't find it, but if you're looking for the doctrine, it's all over both Testaments.

What is it about 'dead' that you guys don't understand. Look! Lazarus is dead. He's been in the tomb for four days. You can preach to Lazarus; you can tell him how he didn't ought to be dead, and the unfortunate consequences of death. You can tell him how much better it would be if he were alive. You can tell him anything you want, but he won't hear you. He's dead you see

Then according to Calvinism I must have been saved when I was born. I do not ever remember having difficulty understanding what my parents said and it was always the gospel in our home. As far back as I can remember I was told the gospel. You are wrong when you claim men cannot hear the gospel unless they are saved first. I was not saved until I was about 14 of age. 60 years I have believed in Christ I admit that I don't know everything yet I do know Calvinism is a false doctrine. It does not line up with the gospel.
.

I
And it's actually worse than that, because, quite frankly, Lazarus is a stinker (John 11:39). He in a bad odour with God; he's not only dead, but dead in trespasses and sins.

But when the Lord Jesus says, "Lazarus, come forth!" Forth he will come, and he won't be stinking any more. It's called monergism: the almighty power of God who alone can raise the dead, both physical and spiritual.

We are all lost in sin before Salvation. We are not dead spiritually as you believe. What Paul was speaking about has to do with being separated from God. This does not in any way prevent man from hearing and understanding the Bible Act 28:28
This is why Christ spoke in parables to those who were not His disciples. Christ spoke in parables to keep them from understanding.
Did Christ lie below;
Mat 13:10 And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables?
Mat 13:11 He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.
Mat 13:12 For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath.
Mat 13:13 Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.
Mat 13:14 And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive:
Mat 13:15 For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.

If what you claim is true then why did Christ speak to them in parables. Christ told the disciples why. Now if they could not hear because they were dead as you claim Christ would not have spoke to them in parables to fulfill prophecy.
How do you explain this?
MB

 

[The Biblicist]

not as a man, will He? He left as a man didn't he?

What do the angels say about how he will return in Acts 1:11?

If a man is not judged yet how is he condemned already?

Do you believe in the Trinity? There are more than one person in the Trinity is there not? Jesus came as savior? Why need a savior if men are not "condemned already"? Don't you understand this simple statement? You don't need a Savior if you are not already condemned. He did not come to condemn because man was condemned as a sinner already? Jesus said he came to save sinners, but you deny anyone is condemned as sinners, thus condemned to death. Just stop your arguing for the sake of arguing and use common sense. Do you believe sinners existed prior to the coming of Christ? Do you? If not, then Jesus came for nought. If you do, it because that had already been condemned as sinners - just that simple!

The Law does not even apply to you, It was given to the Israelite between Moses and Jesus

If the law does not apply then there is no such thing as a sinner (1 Jn. 3:6). The "old covenant" administration no longer exists but the principles of the law are eternal. Lying is as much sin now and before Moses as it was between Moses and Jesus. Killing is as much sin now and before Moses as it is between Moses and Jesus. Although we are not under the "old Covenant" administration and not existing as a theocatic nation the law plays the same role as it always has or have you read (Rom. 3:18-20)??????? The purpose of the law was never to save anyone but to REVEAL THE KNOWLEDGE OF SIN.

Do me a favor, don't just react and start writing back to me. Read what I said carefully and think it through or you going to look aweful foolish.