All have sinned when Adam sinned - Rom. 5:12-19

[The Biblicist]

The logical conclusion to calvinist theology is when babies and children die before they can understand the gospel they go to hell.

A very evil doctrine

Apparently you don't understand the logic of that position because that position denies that new birth is based upon the act of the will. Hence, in babies no act of will is necessary for their salvation but they can be saved (and are saved) by pure sovereign grace according to God's good pleasure based upon Christ's role as head of his people. Where sin abounded grace did much more abound by the sovereign decree to put them to death at that appointed time (heb. 10:28). So no action by their will to obtain salvation is consistent with our position but it is not consistent with your position.

On the other hand, the logical conclusion to free willism is when babies and children die before they can understand the gospel is they go to hell because they do not exercise free will to obtain salvation because your theory demands the exercise of free will in order to be saved and babies cannot do that. Not only a very evil doctrine but a false doctrine.

 

[MB]

Apparently you don't understand the logic of that position because that position denies that new birth is based upon the act of the will. Hence, in babies no act of will is necessary for their salvation but they can be saved (and are saved) by pure sovereign grace according to God's good pleasure based upon Christ's role as head of his people. Where sin abounded grace did much more abound by the sovereign decree to put them to death at that appointed time (heb. 10:28). So no action by their will to obtain salvation is consistent with our position but it is not consistent with your position.

On the other hand, the logical conclusion to free willism is when babies and children die before they can understand the gospel is they go to hell because they do not exercise free will to obtain salvation because your theory demands the exercise of free will in order to be saved and babies cannot do that. Not only a very evil doctrine but a false doctrine.

Not logical at all, children are not held accountable until they are of an age of Accountability.
MB

 

[The Biblicist]

Not logical at all, children are not held accountable until they are of an age of Accountability.
MB

Bible book, chapter and verse please?

 

[SovereignGrace]

Bible book, chapter and verse please?

2 Opinions 3:16

 

[MB]

Bible book, chapter and verse please?

Eze 18:20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.

Calvinism seems to say we are born sinners because of Adam the father of us all. Yet this verse says this is not so. The matter of death comes on all men but it is physical. Not spiritual. We are not sinners and there is no sin where there is no law. Law cannot be with babes because they can't even speak.or understand There fore a babe is sinless and there fore righteous.
MB

 

[Yeshua1]

12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam’s transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.
15 But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.
16 And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification.
17 For if by one man’s offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)
18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
19 For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

The question is at what point did all men sin in verse 12. Paul uses the aorist tense as a completed action. Does this refer to the point when each man eventually sins in their own person or does it refer to "all men" as one undivided human nature in one man - Adam when he sinned?

I believe it refers to the latter for the following reasons:

1. Death is received by all men at birth rather than at the point they sin individually and this is precisely the argument Paul makes in verses 13-14. Death precedes an individualized sin and death is "condemnation" for sin and therefore it must refer to a sin prior to their birth and the only universal sin prior to birth of all mankind is violation referred to in Genesis 2:17 "in the day...ye shall surely die."

2. It is by "one man's disobedience" many be dead, many be condemned, many be made sinners rather than by the disobediences of many many be dead, many be condemend, many be made sinners and this is precisely the argument Paul makes in verses 15-19.

3. All mankind are "in Adam" by creation just as all saved mankind are "in Christ" by new creation (Eph. 2:10). Both men act in behalf of all who are in them (Rom. 5:15,17).

God saw Adam as the head of the human race , as the Federal head before God representative of all mankind, and he sees Jesus as the second Adam, as Federal head over all of the redeemed in Christ now!

 

[The Biblicist]

Eze 18:20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.

Calvinism seems to say we are born sinners because of Adam the father of us all. Yet this verse says this is not so. The matter of death comes on all men but it is physical. Not spiritual. We are not sinners and there is no sin where there is no law. Law cannot be with babes because they can't even speak.or understand There fore a babe is sinless and there fore righteous.
MB

You are dealing with two different kinds of context which have nothing to do with each other. Let me illustrate

1. Genes 1-3 is a prefallen context whereas Ezek is a post-fallen context
2. Genes 1-3 deals with ONE man/father whereas Ezek deals with all men/fathers
3. Genes 1-3 deals with ONE man as a REPRESENTATIVE for all mankind where as Ezek 18 does not deal with men in representative positions for anyone.
4. Genes 1-3 deals with ONE REPRESENTATIVE man for all mankind who is SINLESS while Ezek 18 deals with Fathers and children who are equally sinful and can't represent anyone but themselves.
5. Genesis 1-3 is dealing with the law in Genesis 2:17 whereas Ezek 18 is dealing with the Mosaicd Law covenant.

Finally, if you deny the Representative capacity of Adam in behalf of others, you must equally deny the representative capacity of Christ for others whereas Ezek 18 deals with sinful men who canont represent anyone else but are equally in need of a representative man that they might be saved. Hence, their equal sinfulness repudiates that they could possibly represent each other in any direction. Think about it.

 

[MB]

You are dealing with two different kinds of context which have nothing to do with each other. Let me illustrate

1. Genes 1-3 is a prefallen context whereas Ezek is a post-fallen context
2. Genes 1-3 deals with ONE man/father whereas Ezek deals with all men/fathers
3. Genes 1-3 deals with ONE man as a REPRESENTATIVE for all mankind where as Ezek 18 does not deal with men in representative positions for anyone.
4. Genes 1-3 deals with ONE REPRESENTATIVE man for all mankind who is SINLESS while Ezek 18 deals with Fathers and children who are equally sinful and can't represent anyone but themselves.
5. Genesis 1-3 is dealing with the law in Genesis 2:17 whereas Ezek 18 is dealing with the Mosaicd Law covenant.

Finally, if you deny the Representative capacity of Adam in behalf of others, you must equally deny the representative capacity of Christ for others whereas Ezek 18 deals with sinful men who canont represent anyone else but are equally in need of a representative man that they might be saved. Hence, their equal sinfulness repudiates that they could possibly represent each other in any direction. Think about it.

How were they saved when Christ had not shed the blood necessary They still had to hear the gospel of Christ to be saved.The blood of bulls and other animals did not take sin away
I do not deny Adam brought sin in to the world. and that death in the world is it's consequence. However that is a physical death not spiritual.. Man does not bear the sins of Adam. We die because death entered the world. If Adam had not sinned we would be in the garden and sinless. Adam would still be alive. Adam's sin had it's effect and that is physical death. This shows that when we sin it effects others as well.
MB

 

[37818]

Adam's sin had it's effect and that is physical death.

Question. Christ finished paying for sins prior to His physical death (John 19:28). Adam and Eve died according to what God had warned (Genesis 2:17) prior to being removed from the garden. Are you denying these things?

 

[percho]

But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe. Gal 3:22

But the scripture hath concluded all under sin.

Where?

In Romans 5:12?
What about here?
Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me. Ps 51:5
Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good. For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.

What law (singular) what commandment (singular)?

Gal 4:4,5 But when the time had fully come, God sent forth his Son, born of woman, born under the law, to redeem those who were under the law, so that we might receive adoption as sons.

What law were all under that brought the need for redemption? Were they born under that law?

BTW What law was Jesus the Christ born under, being born of woman? Matt 1:18 begins like this; Now the birth of Jesus Christ was on this wise:

Why was the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world and or why, was Christ as of a lamb without blemish and without spot foreordained before the foundation of the world for, redemption. That is to willfully shed his precious blood?

That which is born of the flesh, flesh is. What does age of accountability have to do with anything?

 

[percho]

One more thought. How closely related are these?

Thou shalt have no other gods before me.
But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

 

[The Biblicist]

How were they saved when Christ had not shed the blood necessary They still had to hear the gospel of Christ to be saved.

Have you read Acts 10:43? If so, ask yourself who was the very first prophet (Heb. 12:3)? Have your read Hebrews 4:2?

The blood of bulls and other animals did not take sin away

Have you read Hebrews 12:3 with regard to what it was that actually made Abel righteous? The sacrifice or faith in what the sacrifice typified? Have you read Hebrews 10:1-4?

However that is a physical death not spiritual..

Was John 3:3-11 said prior to the cross? Was Ezekiel 44:7-9 said before the cross? If being born of Spirit or what the Old Testament prophets called metaphorically "circumcised of heart" did not exist before the cross then why does God demand it prior to the cross?

Physical death is the product of spiritual death as there would be no physical death unless one first suffers spiritual death. Do you understand what is spiritual death? It is spiritual separation from God. That means your spirit is cut off from God's Spirit. God IS life, God IS light, God IS love, and God IS holy and to be spiritual separated from God means you are spiritually dead, in spiritual darkness, having spiritual enmity toward God and are depraved. There is no other salvation than one salvation because there is no other problem then the fall which is the problem that salvation is designed to solve. There are only two kind of people from Adam - (1) Those IN ADAM versus those IN CHRIST; (1) Lost versus Saved; (3) Those who have Satan as the spiritual father versus those who have God has their spiritual Father; (4) Those in the kingdom of Satan and servants of Satan and those in the kingdom of God and servants of God. No third type of human exists or ever will exist.

 

[percho]

Have you read Acts 10:43? If so, ask yourself who was the very first prophet (Heb. 12:3)? Have your read Hebrews 4:2?




Have you read Hebrews 12:3 with regard to what it was that actually made Abel righteous? The sacrifice or faith in what the sacrifice typified? Have you read Hebrews 10:1-4?



Was John 3:3-11 said prior to the cross? Was Ezekiel 44:7-9 said before the cross? If being born of Spirit or what the Old Testament prophets called metaphorically "circumcised of heart" did not exist before the cross then why does God demand it prior to the cross?

Physical death is the product of spiritual death as there would be no physical death unless one first suffers spiritual death. Do you understand what is spiritual death? It is spiritual separation from God. That means your spirit is cut off from God's Spirit. God IS life, God IS light, God IS love, and God IS holy and to be spiritual separated from God means you are spiritually dead, in spiritual darkness, having spiritual enmity toward God and are depraved. There is no other salvation than one salvation because there is no other problem then the fall which is the problem that salvation is designed to solve. There are only two kind of people from Adam - (1) Those IN ADAM versus those IN CHRIST; (1) Lost versus Saved; (3) Those who have Satan as the spiritual father versus those who have God has their spiritual Father; (4) Those in the kingdom of Satan and servants of Satan and those in the kingdom of God and servants of God. No third type of human exists or ever will exist.

Explain to me, relative to God's relationship with man, what effect did the physical death of Christ have on the spiritual death of Adam?

Is spiritual death a greater and more powerful death than physical death?

Here is what God told Adam whatever it means. מֹ֣ות תָּמ֔וּת

I'm not an expert on anything but I think it means, dying you will die.

Adam lived 930 years and he died. Adam is still dead. dying Adam died, just exactly like God had told him.
Gen 5:5 And all the days that Adam lived were nine hundred and thirty years: and he died.

Jesus lived about 34 years and he died. Just like Adam, dying he died. Is Jesus still dead, like Adam?

“he, foreseeing this, spoke concerning the resurrection of the Christ, that His soul was not left in Hades, nor did His flesh see corruption. Acts 2:31
For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: 1 Cor 15:3,4

How many days was Christ dead, like Adam?

I think a great question is, why three days? Why not 2 or 1 or 6, why three? And no I do not know that either.
I think it has something to do with, death being cleansed, on the third gay, by washing of regeneration and renewing of Spirit Holy.

 

[The Biblicist]

Explain to me, relative to God's relationship with man, what effect did the physical death of Christ have on the spiritual death of Adam?

Animals die too! But animals are not made in the image of God. That "image" is INVISIBLE as Paul tells the Colossians that Jesus was in the image of the "invisible" God. What aspect of man is INVISIBLE but different than the component aspects of animals? Answer: He has a "spirit" in addition to a "soul" and that "spirit" came directly from God as God "breathed" (Heb. inspirited) into Adam's nostrils the "breath" (spirits) of life.

1. Spirit provides man other world/spirit world consciousness
2. Soul provides man with self consciousness
3. Body provides man with outer world consciousness

Animals have self-consciousness and outer world consciousness but they have no spirit world consciousness. You will never see an animal pray or hold a worship service with fellow "brethren" animals.

The spirit of man was created in direct connection (spiritual union) and communion with God who is spirit. God is LIFE, and God IS light; and God IS love and God IS holy. God is the spiritual source for all these communicable attributes. Sin separates God who is SPIRIT from man's spirit which is where God communes with man making worship possible (Jn. 4:22-24).

Death IS Separation from the life of God, from the light of God, from the love of God and from the holiness of God all of which have their sustaining source IN God.

God did not say "dying ye shall surely die" but he said "IN THE DAY" they ate "dying they shall surely die" meaning death had its beginning point "IN THE DAY" they sinned because it separated them from God producing in them spiritual death, darkness, enmity and depravity. All men die in Adam and you are not different then Adam with regard to sin and its effects. There are not two different kinds of sin problems but only one and that is described clearly in both the Old and New Testaments.

Is spiritual death a greater and more powerful death than physical death?

If God had not prevented FALLEN Adam from eating of the tree of life he would have not physically died and the horror of that is that an inner spiritually dead person would be forever housed in an immortal body.

Adam lived 930 years and he died. Adam is still dead. dying Adam died, just exactly like God had told him.

No, a thousand times Nooooooooo! Read and then carefully study Hebrews 11:4 and ask yourself one question, "was it a righteous Abel who offered up a sacrifice or was it an unrighteous Abel who offered up a sacrifice to become righteous"? Then ask youself what is the theme of Hebrews 11? Faith right? Abel was justified by faith PRIOR TO making that offering as that offering pictured the object of His faith - the promised Savior of Genesis 3:15 and thus the lamb of God slain "from the foundation of the world."

Adam, Eve, Abel and all those who received the same and only gospel of the prophets (Acts 10:43) are in heaven today BUT THEIR BODIES REMAIN IN THE GROUND. Why? Because BEFORE THE CROSS, BEFORE THE RESURRECTION Jesus not only demanded new birth (Jn. 3:3-11; Ezek.44:7-9) but said "And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?" Note, he described their present state "liveth" and "believeth" but they "shall NEVER die" even though their bodies does die! 1 Cor. 15 has to do with the "corruptible" body that lies in the grave or the unglorified bodies still living when Christ returns.

I think a great question is, why three days? Why not 2 or 1 or 6, why three? And no I do not know that either.
I think it has something to do with, death being cleansed, on the third gay, by washing of regeneration and renewing of Spirit Holy.

Three days and three nights in the SEALED tomb is an proof he actually died. It is not how long he stayed in the grave that saves anyone, but that on the cross the MAN, the HUMAN SPIRIT was separated from God and he physically died thus paying the sin debt in our behalf. It was his DIVINITY that gave eternal value for his death. the resurrection proved the penalty of death was fully paid or else no resurrection could be possible.

The saving application of his promised death and resurrection was applied by faith to all pre-cross saints not according to the "old" or "new" covenants but according to "the blood of the everlasting covenant" (Heb. 13:20) according to His eternal purpose of grace according to election.

 

[MB]

Question. Christ finished paying for sins prior to His physical death (John 19:28). Adam and Eve died according to what God had warned (Genesis 2:17) prior to being removed from the garden. Are you denying these things?

Yes because Adam spoke with God.According to Calvinism He could not have spoke with and heard God if he were spiritually dead. As the Calvinist claim that God does not hear the reprobate. If we are in effect dead as Calvinist claim because of Adam's sin then we are paying for the sins of another person. Paul wrote this;

Rom 7:9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.

This verse shows we are spiritually alive until the Law which causes sin to be revived. In other words Our sin is accounted when we become aware of the Law and what the Law means. To say we are paying for Adams sin is wrong. We are born in sin but we are not born sinners as Calvinist on this board have claimed. Spiritual death is a metaphor. The proof of this is that no other apostle even mentioned it Neither did Christ
Those who lived before the Law were not held accountable for there sins because there was no Law. This could not have happened if men were spiritually died. According to Paul we are spiritually dead because of Adam's sin. Our spirit isn't really dead but considered dead
The dead spirit term was used by Paul alone. I've looked intently for another witness and have not found one. If I'm wrong please show me I would be interested in seeing it.

IMO Calvinist claim we are literally dead because it fits there doctrine of having to pay for Adam sin. There is only one way we are effected for Adam's sin and that is the fact that Adam brought sin into the world. He was the first to sin. Because of this we all die physically . If he had not sinned we would all be living as long as it would take for sin and death to enter the world. Adam gave up eternal life when he sinned.
MB

 

[loDebar]

Yes because Adam spoke with God.According to Calvinism He could not have spoke with and heard God if he were spiritually dead. As the Calvinist claim that God does not hear the reprobate. If we are in effect dead as Calvinist claim because of Adam's sin then we are paying for the sins of another person. Paul wrote this;

Rom 7:9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.

This verse shows we are spiritually alive until the Law which causes sin to be revived. In other words Our sin is accounted when we become aware of the Law and what the Law means. To say we are paying for Adams sin is wrong. We are born in sin but we are not born sinners as Calvinist on this board have claimed. Spiritual death is a metaphor. The proof of this is that no other apostle even mentioned it Neither did Christ
Those who lived before the Law were not held accountable for there sins because there was no Law. This could not have happened if men were spiritually died. According to Paul we are spiritually dead because of Adam's sin. Our spirit isn't really dead but considered dead
The dead spirit term was used by Paul alone. I've looked intently for another witness and have not found one. If I'm wrong please show me I would be interested in seeing it.

IMO Calvinist claim we are literally dead because it fits there doctrine of having to pay for Adam sin. There is only one way we are effected for Adam's sin and that is the fact that Adam brought sin into the world. He was the first to sin. Because of this we all die physically . If he had not sinned we would all be living as long as it would take for sin and death to enter the world. Adam gave up eternal life when he sinned.
MB

God spoke with Satan , All sinners are still responsible to God, Adam was a sinner.

 

[The Biblicist]

God spoke with Satan , All sinners are still responsible to God, Adam was a sinner.

I hope neither of you guys are pastors or teachers or any official position in any Baptist church as that would be an utter and complete travesty.

 

[MB]

God spoke with Satan , All sinners are still responsible to God, Adam was a sinner.

Satan is a living spirit. Yes we are all responsible to God but not for Adam's sin. We are not born sinners. We are born in sin.
MB

 

[loDebar]

I hope neither of you guys are pastors or teachers or any official position in any Baptist church as that would be an utter and complete travesty.

I think you have learned well what you have been taught.

The position we have proposed are not Baptist. You believe in personal responsibility, a key provision of Baptist doctrine yet you blame Adam for your sin

 

[InTheLight]

I hope neither of you guys are pastors or teachers or any official position in any Baptist church as that would be an utter and complete travesty.

Nicely played! Really got them there, didn't you?