All have sinned when Adam sinned - Rom. 5:12-19

[loDebar]

The natural flow and natural explanation of Romans 5:12-19 is that condemnation upon the whole human race occurred at one point in time (Gen. 2:17) by the actions of one man (Rom. 5:12,17-19) and that is why Death can precede any individual actions by Adam's posterity to merit death. Meriting death was due to one man's act of disobedience.

All interpretative theories that deny this must repudiate Paul's repeated statement that "condemnation....be dead....made sinners" of many are not due to their own individual acts of sin but due soley to "one man's disobedience." They must repudiate Paul's words because their view demands that every man is judged solely by his own actions, is condemned by his own actions and "be dead" due to his own actions and are "made sinners" due to his own actions which Paul repudiates but claims their sins are but consquences (including unbelief) are consequences of being "condemned already" "dead" already "made sinners" already due to one man's sin.

Romans 5:12 makes this assertion by using the same aorist tense for all verbs (entered...passed....sinned") showing inseparable simeltaneous action demanding the undivided human nature was condemned, dead and made sin at that point in time and therefore all mankind who are but products of that fallen nature are born sinners by nature, born spiritually dead, born condemned and thus justly subject to death from conception apart from any sinful deeds of their own.

Romans 5:13-14 proves this is true by eliminating all laws but Genesis 2:17 that can explain universal death.

Romans 5:15-19 proves this by clearly and explicitly and repeatedly saying that this condemnation, deadness, sinfulness of many has its cause in one man's disobedience and not their own sins plural.

Case closed!

When it takes pages to present your case , it it inversely proportional to the strength of you argument and understanding of the doctrine. More pages, weaker argument

 

[Deacon]

No, you are dead wrong! Romans 5:17-19 makes it clear we are accountable for Adam's sin because we sinned in him as one undivided human nature. Romans 5:13-14 does not teach we are merely held accountable once Adam sinned, but rather death of those between Adam and Moses can only be accounted by universal violation of law in Genesis 2:17.

Don't get so excited Bib, "you are wrong" would have been enough. lol

What does Romans 5:12 say spread to all peoples, sin or death?
Death entered as a consequence of sin.
Paul says death is the penalty for our sins and not an inheritance from Adam.
Death spread because we all sin.

You have a system you are trying to defend.

And here you are trying to defend a system expounded by Augustine.

Rob

 

[Iconoclast]

What you don't see is that the underlined verse was what a fool said in his heart. He also said there is no God in Ps. 14 No where in romans does it ever say that this is the state of an lost man. Paul quoted this verse to show what a lost person says in his heart about God and His follwers. Of course what the lost man or fool said is his own idea because he doesn't wish to admit that there is even a god. He simply has not heard the gospel yet.
I thought similar thoughts myself before I was saved.
To prove it isn't a true statement from the fool. At the time David who wrote this Psalm had sought God. He was called a man after God's own heart. There many men who had sought God.
There is no way this passage can support an imagined concept from scripture such as total depravity.

The other two verses are merely stating men are sinful, not unable to respond to the gospel.
MB

You will never come to truth by explaining away verses that teach the truth.

 

[Iconoclast]

Icon
None of the scriptures you have presented supports what you claim. Scripture states the opposite. What men have to say about total depravity is just their opinion, which is not supported by scripture. Men disabled by total depravity is just is not in scripture. This is why you have not shown it in scripture. The Jews were blinded because of there rejection of Christ. Not because of the fall. We've been over this before.

MB

All of the scriptures support the truth of scripture as posted.
When people turn away from truth they error. We have seen that recently with some who deny The Covenant nature of the substitutionary atonement.
Here we have persons who look at the scripture explained that address the issue,do not take the time to address what was posted , then just seek to dismiss it. oh well good luck with that.

 

[The Biblicist]

Don't get so excited Bib, "you are wrong" would have been enough. lol

I am just excitable by nature (lol)!

What does Romans 5:12 say spread to all peoples, sin or death?

All the verbs are aorist tense and when considered with his methodical argument in verses 13-19 where that one act by one man is said to have made many "condemned.....dead.....sinners" than it is quite apparent Paul's intent for all aorist tense verbs is identical action with Adam's one act. That is when he sinned, death entered when he sinned, death was passed upon all men when he sinned and all sinned when he sinned as this is precisely what he claims in verses 15-19 "by one man's disobedience" upon came "condemnation....dead....made sinners".

The fact that verses 13-14 eliminates all other laws (Mosaic, conscience) exept violation of Genesis 2:17 (which verse 12 refers to and is based upon) demands there is no other justifiable basis for death to reign from conception to old age.

Death entered as a consequence of sin.

Yes, but not our sin(s) as Paul repudiates the idea of a future tense "all shall sin" and therefore all die - as he demands we are "made sinners" and "condemnation" and "be dead" due to "one man's act of disobedience" rather than the acts of disobedience by future mankind. Hence, we do not sin in order to become sinners and we do not die because of our sin but we sin because we are already condemned as sinners and death from conception proves it.

Paul says death is the penalty for our sins and not an inheritance from Adam.
Death spread because we all sin.

Rob[/QUOTE]

You are wrong (better?)! He is saying the very opposite. He is sayiny many are condemned, many be dead, many be made sinners not due to their sins but due to "one man's disobedience".

No, I am not trying to defend Augustine, or Calvin but the clear explicit teaching by Paul in romans 5:12-19. My position is correct because you have no justifiable basis for death at conception in the womb prior to any sinful acts. Death is the condemnation for violating law (1 Jn. 3:6) and death entered the world at the point of Adam's sin and that death is "passed" down to all men justifiable because all men have already once sinned (aorist tense) when Adam sinned and that is precisely why Paul can contribute condemnation, deadness and made sinner to all other man due to "one man's disobedience." - Just that simple and this is his clear argumentation.

 

[The Biblicist]

When it takes pages to present your case , it it inversely proportional to the strength of you argument and understanding of the doctrine. More pages, weaker argument

Wrong! My first post stated it clearly and succinctly. These "pages" are due to answering various misguided objections from you and others, all of which are based upon eisgesis instead of exegesis. So, responding to passages outside of the text requires time and space, just that simple.

Your position is wrong and obviously wrong as you could not repudiate the reasoning behind my first post but simply attempted to assert it was wrong and then you fled the context to pit other misused scripture against that text.

 

[loDebar]

How am I condemned?

 

[Deacon]

My position is correct because you have no justifiable basis for death at conception in the womb prior to any sinful acts. Death is the condemnation for violating law (1 Jn. 3:6) and death entered the world at the point of Adam's sin and that death is "passed" down to all men justifiable because all men have already once sinned (aorist tense) when Adam sinned and that is precisely why Paul can contribute condemnation, deadness and made sinner to all other man due to "one man's disobedience." - Just that simple and this is his clear argumentation.

Personally I think that the death of infants or "in the womb" introduces speculative theology and is a weak argument in this context.
I personally don't think we are far apart in our understanding, only you have included consequential aspects/baggage into the passage that is more than the intent of the passage and an unnecessary addition

Rob

 

[The Biblicist]

Personally I think that the death of infants or "in the womb" introduces speculative theology and is a weak argument in this context.
I personally don't think we are far apart in our understanding, only you have included consequential aspects/baggage into the passage that is more than the intent of the passage and an unnecessary addition

Rob

That is because you don't understand Paul's argument in verses 13-14. Paul puts your "speculative" argument to rest in verses 13-14. Adam sinned willfully and with full knowlege of what he was doing. Eve was deceived. However, there are those who die who are incapable of sinning after the likeness of Adam - there are those who have no ability to make a conscious willful violation of law and yet death still reigns over them. That death is not due to violating Mosaic law. That death is not a result of willfully violating the law of conscience. All mankind are subject to that death in the womb and it has NOTHING to do with them as individuals or their own choices or actions and yet that death is JUST as God could never have that condemnation "passed" upon them in that state unless they were in some sense inseparable from Adam in some sense and responsible for violation of Genesis 2:17. All humanity existed and acted as one indivisible human nature and that is why that human nature at the point of the fall "being evil" is what is procreated from it through natural birth.

Again, Romans 5:12 makes the assertion based on Genesis 2:17

Again, Romans 5:13-14 defends that assertion repudiating any other just basis for universal death but the violation of the law in Genesis 2:17

Again, Romans 5:15-19 defends that assertion by explicitly stating "condemnation" of many, "many be dead" and many "made sinners" NOT DUE TO ANYTHING THEY DO AS PROCREATED HUMAN BEINGS BUT EXPLICITLY AND ONLY DUE TO "one man's disobedience" as first asserted in Romans 5:12.

Moreover, there is a plethera of scriptures to prove all human beings are born "condemned already" '"BEING EVIL" AT BIRTH BY NATURE.

 

[InTheLight]

God could never have that condemnation "passed" upon them in that state unless they were in some sense inseparable from Adam in some sense and responsible for violation of Genesis 2:17. All humanity existed and acted as one indivisible human nature and that is why that human nature at the point of the fall "being evil" is what is procreated from it through natural birth.

"Objection, speculation!"

"Sustained."

 

[loDebar]

"Objection, speculation!"

"Sustained."

hear! hear! ..... continue

 

[InTheLight]

hear! hear! ..... continue

Moreover, there is a plethera of scriptures to prove all human beings are born "condemned already" '"BEING EVIL" AT BIRTH BY NATURE.

"Your honor, we stipulate that humans are born already condemned. That has been entered into evidence. However this idea of 'being evil at birth by nature' has not been entered into the record and is pure speculation. Move to strike."

"The jury will disregard the statement made by The Bilblicist regarding humans being evil by nature at birth."

 

[loDebar]

"Your honor, we stipulate that humans are born already condemned. That has been entered into evidence. However this idea of 'being evil at birth by nature' has not been entered into the record and is pure speculation. Move to strike."

"The jury will disregard the statement made by The Bilblicist regarding humans being evil by nature at birth."

Why are we condemned already? What form did we have before, when condemned?

 

[InTheLight]

Why are we condemned already? What form did we have before, when condemned?

Because we don't believe in Jesus, the Son of God.

John 3:18 “He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

 

[loDebar]

Because we don't believe in Jesus, the Son of God.

John 3:18 “He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Did I exist before my physical body if I am condemned already but not as a man?

 

[InTheLight]

Did I exist before my physical body if I am condemned already but not as a man?

Could you rephrase the question, please?

 

[37818]

You are missing the point. Romans 5:12 pinpoints the precise time death entered this world . . .

The text says, ". . . death by sin . . . ." Nothing as to when death originated. Genesis 2:17.

 

[percho]

I believe the Word of God says all humans, other than Jesus of Nazareth brought forth of the virgin Mary, are conceived in sin and brought forth, born, in iniquity, subject to death and corruption.

In order to be, "saved," all, will need to be changed.

All, because of the lust of Adam.

 

[percho]

The text says, ". . . death by sin . . . ." Nothing as to when death originated. Genesis 2:17.

The devil had the power of the death.

I agree with you. When did he get that power? How did it come to him? Does 1 John 3:8 tell us?

 

[The Biblicist]

The text says, ". . . death by sin . . . ." Nothing as to when death originated. Genesis 2:17.

Simply read the rest of that text and you will see death "entered the world" at the point of the sin by Adam as sin entered the world by Adam and "death BY SIN." There was no death prior to sin entering the world. It did not enter the world BEFORE he sinned. Genesis 2:17 makes this soooooo clear that a blind man could not miss it - "IN THE DAY...ye shall surely die" not the day BEFORE. When are you going to get tired of beating a dead dog???