All have sinned when Adam sinned - Rom. 5:12-19

I am just excitable by nature (lol)!

All the verbs are aorist tense and when considered with his methodical argument in verses 13-19 where that one act by one man is said to have made many "condemned.....dead.....sinners" than it is quite apparent Paul's intent for all aorist tense verbs is identical action with Adam's one act. That is when he sinned, death entered when he sinned, death was passed upon all men when he sinned and all sinned when he sinned as this is precisely what he claims in verses 15-19 "by one man's disobedience" upon came "condemnation....dead....made sinners".

The fact that verses 13-14 eliminates all other laws (Mosaic, conscience) exept violation of Genesis 2:17 (which verse 12 refers to and is based upon) demands there is no other justifiable basis for death to reign from conception to old age.

Yes, but not our sin(s) as Paul repudiates the idea of a future tense "all shall sin" and therefore all die - as he demands we are "made sinners" and "condemnation" and "be dead" due to "one man's act of disobedience" rather than the acts of disobedience by future mankind. Hence, we do not sin in order to become sinners and we do not die because of our sin but we sin because we are already condemned as sinners and death from conception proves it.

Rob[/QUOTE]

You are wrong (better?)! He is saying the very opposite. He is sayiny many are condemned, many be dead, many be made sinners not due to their sins but due to "one man's disobedience".

No, I am not trying to defend Augustine, or Calvin but the clear explicit teaching by Paul in romans 5:12-19. My position is correct because you have no justifiable basis for death at conception in the womb prior to any sinful acts. Death is the condemnation for violating law (1 Jn. 3:6) and death entered the world at the point of Adam's sin and that death is "passed" down to all men justifiable because all men have already once sinned (aorist tense) when Adam sinned and that is precisely why Paul can contribute condemnation, deadness and made sinner to all other man due to "one man's disobedience." - Just that simple and this is his clear argumentation.

 

Wrong! My first post stated it clearly and succinctly. These "pages" are due to answering various misguided objections from you and others, all of which are based upon eisgesis instead of exegesis. So, responding to passages outside of the text requires time and space, just that simple.

Your position is wrong and obviously wrong as you could not repudiate the reasoning behind my first post but simply attempted to assert it was wrong and then you fled the context to pit other misused scripture against that text.

 

That is because you don't understand Paul's argument in verses 13-14. Paul puts your "speculative" argument to rest in verses 13-14. Adam sinned willfully and with full knowlege of what he was doing. Eve was deceived. However, there are those who die who are incapable of sinning after the likeness of Adam - there are those who have no ability to make a conscious willful violation of law and yet death still reigns over them. That death is not due to violating Mosaic law. That death is not a result of willfully violating the law of conscience. All mankind are subject to that death in the womb and it has NOTHING to do with them as individuals or their own choices or actions and yet that death is JUST as God could never have that condemnation "passed" upon them in that state unless they were in some sense inseparable from Adam in some sense and responsible for violation of Genesis 2:17. All humanity existed and acted as one indivisible human nature and that is why that human nature at the point of the fall "being evil" is what is procreated from it through natural birth.

Again, Romans 5:12 makes the assertion based on Genesis 2:17

Again, Romans 5:13-14 defends that assertion repudiating any other just basis for universal death but the violation of the law in Genesis 2:17

Again, Romans 5:15-19 defends that assertion by explicitly stating "condemnation" of many, "many be dead" and many "made sinners" NOT DUE TO ANYTHING THEY DO AS PROCREATED HUMAN BEINGS BUT EXPLICITLY AND ONLY DUE TO "one man's disobedience" as first asserted in Romans 5:12.

Moreover, there is a plethera of scriptures to prove all human beings are born "condemned already" '"BEING EVIL" AT BIRTH BY NATURE.

 

Simply read the rest of that text and you will see death "entered the world" at the point of the sin by Adam as sin entered the world by Adam and "death BY SIN." There was no death prior to sin entering the world. It did not enter the world BEFORE he sinned. Genesis 2:17 makes this soooooo clear that a blind man could not miss it - "IN THE DAY...ye shall surely die" not the day BEFORE. When are you going to get tired of beating a dead dog???