All or Nothing?

[Yelsew]

Originally posted by Ransom:
Yelsew said:

As for sin, I'd have to say yes, God is the author of sin! He made lucifer Who rose up to usurp God's throne, was put down and sent to the earth. God placed man on the earth. The serpent in the Garden had to come from somewhere, just who do you think created that serpent? God created man to be able to sin. So Yes, God is the author of Sin!
What do you say?

It is ironic that one of the missiles most frequently lobbed by Arminians against Calvinists is that they allegedly make God the author of sin. So you can imagine my surprise to see an Arminian admit he believes God is the author of sin as though it is an argument against Calvinism!

No one, whether Calvinist or Arminian, believes that God created sin. Perhaps you should take some time out and think through your own theological views; where I'm sitting, you have just admitted to being incoherent.

Perhaps you should set your "received beliefs" aside long enough for you to analyze the scriptures and understand that God alone is the Creator, therefore, everything that exists come from God...even sin! No, God is not a sinner for He is Holy. But unless you believe there are other Gods who create, then you must believe that all there is comes from the ONE LIVING GOD!

Where did evil come from?
Where did Satan come from?

The answers are in the Bible, God's Holy Word.

 

[Yelsew]

By the way Ransom, I am not Arminian either! I am Christian, unhyphenated Christian!

 

[Me2]

Yelsew,

According to John 3;18, the Believer (many of those in the body of Christ, but not all are believers) Is not judged.

although what is left when our carnal spirit is delivered into spiritual death. the laws job is to uncover sin. yet it identifies works of our flesh. namely the struggle that we continually believe we have the power to overcome the fault when it is identified. thats carnal works. God is allowing the law to defeat every fiber of efforts that we possess until we completely submit to the complete sovereignty of God. we cannot overcome the law by our own efforts. the law has killed every effort our will possesses

the "Job" of the law is plainly to kill our old spirit. to deliver it to spiritual death.
what is our spirit once the law has finished its Job..Its dead. we have arrived. into spiritual "death". the death or recognition of the discontinuation of the life of our unrighteous carnal spirit.

consider this, if we call ourselves christians. means that we possess a new spirit. the new and resurrected spirit of Christ.

when we arrive into spiritual death. we're not judged. the law has already judged our unrighteous actions and destroyed them. what happens in death is that we are placed in christ because Christ righteous or eternal life fills death..

lets say death is a pitcher. jesus is "water of life" that that fills this pitcher. when we enter into death. we are immersed into this "water of life".

anyone who receives the seed of God.

lets say our physical flesh is dirt.
we have our old spirit growing inside it.
God puts his seed in our dirt.
the law which is the environment surrounding the seed starts to convict us of carnal works.
until we discover the old carnal spirit has died because of the laws existence.

which now we must become "baptised into the death of Christ".
we're both buried into spiritual death.
our old spirits carcass remains in death.

the seed of God begins to Grow until it bursts forth from Spiritual death. along with our soul.

there we are. our physical body now contains a new plant. christ new spirit and our soul.

but we must have the law destroy our old spirit and be buried with Christ seed. awaiting God Life giving power of Resurrection.

Joh 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
Joh 3:19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.

Here is some context:

christians today receive the law (seed). it begins to destroy the works of our carnal flesh. yet if we struggle with its function. we will contest with its methods. we will desire to will control from God and attempt to overcome the fault that the law uncovers by our own strength. neither learning of the power of Jesus Christ, but covering our eyes from the understanding we receive as we observe God overcoming our faults by his power.

We judge Gods methods and sovereignty. We judge his Love for our Life. We judge Jesus and pronounce his inadequacies to overcome the faults that the law uncovers. thus we condemn ourselves.

we pronounce ourselves as gods. or even equal to or more powerful. even wiser than God himself.

that We can save ourselves.

but all we find out is that we delay the process of the function of the law. if christ righteousness fill everything. it will enevitable fill us also. the works of our flesh will be destroyed. we will be delivered unto spiritual death.

Joh 3:21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.

Eph 4:10 He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)

1Co 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

enevitably all men will be delivered by the law unto spiritual death.
enevitably all works of the flesh will be destroyed.
enevitably all men will be placed into Christ.

see yelsew,

the body of Christ is meerly the first batch.

all men are placed into death..ah, I mean Christ

Me2

 

[Me2]

Yelsew,

the "seed" is the spirit of Jesus and the law together.

Mat 5:16 Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.
Mat 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

Luk 17:21 Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.

israel began the faith that the law of God was good. Jesus Fulfilled that faith. He revealed its reality as part of the new spirit within man

anyone desiring to follow the law of God already has the seed within them. the law begins its work.

Gal 3:24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster [to bring us] unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.

jesus will not upsurp our will.

Mat 16:24 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any [man] will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.
Mat 16:25 For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it.


our will must follow his.


yet our will is enmity of his until the law destroys the works of our flesh.


Rom 8:7 Because the carnal mind [is] enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

I agree yelsew, Jesus Christ is the author of his faith.

Heb 5:9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

which becomes ours after the law has delivered us unto death..

but the law must do its holy work condemning works of unrighteousness. and then our Lord Jesus Christ will come forth.

Mat 12:18 Behold my servant, whom I have chosen; my beloved, in whom my soul is well pleased: I will put my spirit upon him, and he shall shew judgment to the Gentiles.
Mat 12:19 He shall not strive, nor cry; neither shall any man hear his voice in the streets.
Mat 12:20 A bruised reed shall he not break, and smoking flax shall he not quench, till he send forth judgment unto victory.

as we receive the revelation of his presence within us as we become living witnesses to his victory over death.

Col 1:26 [Even] the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints:
Col 1:27 To whom God would make known what [is] the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:

Me2

 

[Brian Bosse]

Hello Everyone!

Yelsew

Brian, If there had been no atonement for the sins of the World, there could be no salvation!

You misunderstood the sense I was using “world.” I accept responsibility for not being clear. Words are not univocal. In the passage you quoted I was using it to refer to the non-elect.

Me2

1Co 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

A discussion concerning universalism is probably beyond the scope of this thread. However, let me just make one point concerning this passage. In this passage Paul is specifically countering the claim by some believers that there is no resurrection of the dead (vs. 12). As we move through the passage the subject of this resurrection clearly refers to those who are of “faith” (vs. 17), those “in Christ” (vs. 18), and those who “hope in Christ” (vs. 19). We all agree that those “in Adam” die (vs. 22a). If we are consistent, then (vs. 22b) teaches us that those “in Christ” will be made alive. The “all” refers to this group of people “in Christ.”

Pastor Larry

My point is that the noetic effects of sin are countered by exegesis in the hermeneutical spiral. The more we learn from the text, the more our presuppositions are refined to biblical presuppositions.

I also would add the role of the Holy Spirit. You are probably assuming this. We agree.

In short sum, they treat the words as they stand in the text, as intended by the original author, as would have been understood by the original reader.

I would argue that you do not really believe this. Consider Hosea 11:1. How did the original author intend this passage? How would the original reader have understood this passage? I would argue that context clearly indicates God is speaking of Israel, and Israel’s continued backsliding. However, Matthew has no difficulty saying this refers to Jesus. If we go by the above hermeneutic, then we would be forced to conclude that Matthew was mistaken. If we allow Matthew’s understanding, then your rule has exceptions. (Note: In my formal debates with orthodox Jews they appeal to your hermeneutic to deny Jesus as being the object of many O.T. passages.)

Once you admit that a word may have multiple meanings, you have destroyed the basis for rational communication.

I would say that passages can have multiple referents, as indicated by my example of Hosea 11:1. But I suspect your real objection is a little different. Take the use of the word “Israel.” Does it always refer to ethnic “Israel?” The answer is no! When Paul says that “For they are not all Israel who are descended from Israel,” does “Israel” in both places carry the same sense? No. The first “Israel” refers to a different group than does the second “Israel.” I think your view of language in regards to Biblical prophecy and communication in general is too simplistic.

Does perseverance demand that I change my behavior? Does perseverance only mean that I continue to believe?

I would argue both, and that both are inseparable. You can’t have one without the other.

I would say that he did not die to save every single human being. He did, in a sense, die for the sins of the world. It was impossible for him not to.

In what sense are you speaking of, and why was it impossible for Him not to?

My point is that when a 4 pointer argues against limited atonement, he is not arguing that Christ actually paid for the sins of all men. He is simply arguing that the atonement is limitless in its value.

If this is the case, then his issue is not with the traditional understanding of Limited Atonement Calvinism, and as such he might be a 5–pointer, and just not realize it. The 5-point Calvinist has never rejected the infinite quality of Christ’s atonement.

However, there are some five pointers who deny that the death of Christ did anything at all for the non-elect. I must disagree with that since I think the benefits of common grace stem from the atonement.

Traditional Calvinism does not claim that the non-elect receive nothing from the atonement. So, to the extent some 5 –pointers believe this, they are a little off. You are correct that Atonement has benefited everyone to some degree – just not salvifically. I am unsure that the basis for common grace is the atonement, although the atonement did provide some common grace.

I still can’t see this point.

If someone denies Limited Atonement, then they accept Universal Atonement. If they accept Universal Atonement, then all will go to heaven, which contradicts the inferences of Unconditional Election. If they have a different understanding of what atonement is (say as the Arminians do), then they believe Christ atoned for the sins of the world but it is only applied to those who believe. Of course, this is self-refuting as evidenced by John Owen’s argument. In other words, if they want to go down this path, then they will end up in inconsistency as to why a person ends up in hell.

Why cannot all men be unconditionally elected?

Larry, I think you are caught up in logical possibility versus consistent Calvinist. Again here is the senerio…

We have a “consistent” Calvinist who denies Limited Atonement. Therefore, he holds to the Calvinist doctrine of Unconditional Election consistently. However, for him to be consistent, he then must acknowledge that God elects some and bypasses others. This implies not all are elected. Therefore, if he believes all are elected (a logical possibility), then he does not believe in the Calvinist doctrine of Unconditional Election, but rather some hybrid. Therefore, he would not be a consistent 4 – pointer.

And what means God has to unconditionally choose anyone? Nothing. He could very well have chosen no one.

These are all logical possibilities, but they are not consistent with the Calvinist doctrine of Unconditional Election. UC explicitly teaches that some are chosen and others are bypassed. Therefore, UC implies that there is no such thing as universal atonement.

I think in the end, the discussion between you and I is probably largely semantic on the issue of the five points.

I think we agree on the 5 points. However, I think I have demonstrated that if someone denied Limited atonement, then in the very least he is not consistent with Unconditional Election as well.

I have always said that the same hermeneutic that made me a Calvinist also made me a dispensationalists. We got to be Calvinists by the plain, single meaning of Scripture. That is all we need to be a dispensationalist.

Larry, I would love to get into this discussion with you. Perhaps we can start a thread and discuss the issues? I would rather not debate Dispensationalism per se, but rather your claim to a consistent hermeneutic, the necessity of Dispensationalism, and the idea that you are not bringing some doctrinal pre-commitment to the text. Just to let you know, my whole Christian life has been at a dispensational church. I am familiar with Darby, Chaffer, Scoffield, and the progressive dispensationalists of today. However, I find many of the covenantal view arguments to be very convincing. Let me know if you are interested.

Sincerely,

Brian

 

[Pastor Larry]

Again, let me respond, hopefully briefly. I will omit things we agree on or things that can be summarized more briefly to try to keep it short.

Consider Hosea 11:1. How did the original author intend this passage? How would the original reader have understood this passage? I would argue that context clearly indicates God is speaking of Israel, and Israel’s continued backsliding. However, Matthew has no difficulty saying this refers to Jesus. If we go by the above hermeneutic, then we would be forced to conclude that Matthew was mistaken. If we allow Matthew’s understanding, then your rule has exceptions. (Note: In my formal debates with orthodox Jews they appeal to your hermeneutic to deny Jesus as being the object of many O.T. passages.)

Hos 11:1 is a great passage for illustration, primarily because it is not even a prophecy. So what was Matthew saying? Matthew was finding an illustration of something else. He was not saying “Hosea made a prophecy that is now fulfilled.” I think this passage actually works against you. Peter does a similar thing in Acts 2 where it is clear that Peter is drawing a likeness, not an identity.

As for multiple referents, I don’t see how. When the author refers to something, that is what he is referring to. To enter a multiple referent, you lose control over who gets to determine what the multiple referents are. The control is the authorial intent. You cite Romans 9 where “all Israel is not Israel.” Yet I think you are reading this passage backwards. What is Paul actually saying? He is saying that all ethnic Israel is not saved. He is not saying that some of “true Israel” is not ethnic Israel. This is one of the most misused passages, I think. The second Isreal is a subset of the first Israel. They are both national ethnic Israel. There is not one place in the NT where Israel is conclusively something other than ethnic Israel. Every single occurrence can legitimately sustain the ethnic definition (and should in light of the OT usage). In fact, there are many cases where non ethnic Israel meaning does not even make sense.

As for discussing dispensationalism, I don’t mind discussing it. In my studies of covenant theology, I find very little in the realm of ecclesiology or eschatology that is convincing in the least. Most of it is very easily refuted, IMO, simply by appealing to rigorous exegesis. Other than ecclesiology, eschatology, and a little pneumatology, there is not a lot of difference between dispensationalism and covenantalism. I am willing to discuss hermeneutics. It is one of my favorite subjects. One of my favorite ThM classes was a seminar in hermeneutics in which I wrote a paper on the Single Intent/Authorial Intention hermeneutic. I do think hermeneutics is the heart of the issue between dispensationalists and covenantalists.

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />He did, in a sense, die for the sins of the world. It was impossible for him not to.

In what sense are you speaking of, and why was it impossible for Him not to?</font>[/QUOTE]In the sense that you cannot limit the sufficiency of the sacrifice and in the sense that you have no basis for common grace for sinners apart from something to appease God’s wrath, even if only temporarily. My point in this is to say that God has no basis for dealing with sinners in anything but immediate judgment except for the sacrifice of Christ that satisfies his immediate wrath for a time.

If someone denies Limited Atonement, then they accept Universal Atonement. If they accept Universal Atonement, then all will go to heaven, which contradicts the inferences of Unconditional Election.

Unless unconditional election includes all people (which we both agree it doesns’t) or unless atonement is less than actual satisfaction, which I don’t believe it is. The difficult passages, to me, are 1 John 2:2 (which I am fairly comfortable with my answer) and 2 Peter 2:1 which I am not comfortable at all and which leads me to be a limited believer in limited atonement. …

We have a “consistent” Calvinist who denies Limited Atonement. Therefore, he holds to the Calvinist doctrine of Unconditional Election consistently.

I am not convinced the “therefore” is a necessary one, in this argument. I would think you would say it the other way around. What I am saying is that unconditional election does not necessitate limited atonement. Both can be held, but both need not be. The atonement could have another meaning (though I don’t believe it does).

However, for him to be consistent, he then must acknowledge that God elects some and bypasses others.

But why?

This implies not all are elected. Therefore, if he believes all are elected (a logical possibility), then he does not believe in the Calvinist doctrine of Unconditional Election, but rather some hybrid.[/qutoe]Why would all being elected being inconsistent with the Calvinist doctrine of unconditional election. (I have an answer which has nothing to do with the logical connections. I am curious as to what your answer is).

These are all logical possibilities, but they are not consistent with the Calvinist doctrine of Unconditional Election. UC explicitly teaches that some are chosen and others are bypassed.

Where? I am not denying that some are chosen and others are bypassed. But I am not seeing the connection between that and unconditional election.

Therefore, UC implies that there is no such thing as universal atonement.

Again, perhaps I am too dense, but I am not seeing the connection made here. Maybe I missed it, or maybe you didn’t state it. I have no doubt you have the connection in your head. I am just missing it here.

Anyway, I have enjoyed it. Perhaps we have beat this up pretty good.

 

[Brian Bosse]

Hello Pastor Larry,

In the sense that you cannot limit the sufficiency of the sacrifice and in the sense that you have no basis for common grace for sinners apart from something to appease God’s wrath, even if only temporarily.

Larry, this is what you are saying…Jesus dies for the sins of the world because his sacrifice is of such quality that it could pay for the sins of the world. Surely you can see the fallaciousness of this argument? Also, saying Jesus dies for the sins of the world because there is common grace is to completely misunderstand atonement. The atonement was not about common grace, but rather saving us from our sins! So I ask again, In what sense did Jesus die for the sins of the world and how was it impossible for Him not to do so?

My point in this is to say that God has no basis for dealing with sinners in anything but immediate judgment except for the sacrifice of Christ that satisfies his immediate wrath for a time.

I do not buy this at all. The necessity of immediate justice is pure speculation on your part, and logically is not tenable. What was it in the act of Atonement that “allowed” God to postpone justice? What about the Devil and his angels? Did Jesus die for them as well? According to your position Jesus must have “died for their sins” as well because final judgment is delayed. Scripture is not completely silent in regards to this. It speaks of those storing up wrath for themselves in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God. Not one sin will be left unpunished. How can you say Jesus in some sense died for those sins? Scripture speaks of letting both the wheat and the tares grow so that that the wheat is not lost. To say that God’s delayed justice is due to atonement just does not work. I’ll grant that it is gracious, but not all grace comes on the basis of the atonement. What about the graciousness of the atonement itself? Surely, you would not attribute that to the atonement? Frankly, I see no way you can maintain that Jesus died for the sins of every last human being in any sense.

As to the other issue regarding Limited Atonement and Unconditional Election, I think you have forgotten the point of this thread. The point of this thread is that you cannot have a consistent 4-point Calvinist. The proof is a reductio ad absurdum proof. This means we assume the opposite of what we are trying to prove, and then show this leads to a contradiction, thereby establishing the premise. In our case we are assuming that we have a consistent 4-point Calvinist. He does not believe in Limited Atonement, but he believes in the other 4 – points exactly as a 5–pointer would. Therefore, he believes exactly in the Doctrine of Unconditional election. He does not believe in it in a slightly different way, but exactly! This is what is meant by consistent. From this we show that Universal Atonement and Unconditional Election are contradictory. This means there is no such thing as a true 4–point Calvinist. This argument assumes that the doctrine of Unconditional Election teaches that God elects some, and not all. You seem to question this. Here is a quote from the following link: (http://www.reformed.org/calvinism/)…

Unconditional Election is the doctrine which states that God chose those whom he was pleased to bring to a knowledge of himself, not based upon any merit shown by the object of his grace and not based upon his looking forward to discover who would "accept" the offer of the gospel. God has elected, based solely upon the counsel of his own will, some for glory and others for damnation (Romans 9:15,21). He has done this act before the foundations of the world (Ephesians 1:4-8).

This doctrine clearly denies Universal anything. Therefore, if you believe this doctrine, then you cannot believe in Universal Atonement. What are you left with? Limited Atonement. Here is the proof once more…

Prove A: 4-Point Calvinists who deny Limited Atonement are not consistent.
Assume ~A: 4-Point Calvinists who deny Limited Atonement are not consistent.
~A--&gt;B: These Calvinists believe in Universal Atonement.
~B: Unconditional Election denies Universal Atonement.
~~A by Modus Tollens
A by the law of non-contradiction. Q.E.D.

I hope this is clearer. I suspect it may not be. I would like to start another thread dealing with the other issues. I will P.M. you when I have posted.

Thanks!

Brian

 

[Me2]

This doctrine clearly denies Universal anything. Therefore, if you believe this doctrine, then you cannot believe in Universal Atonement. What are you left with? Limited Atonement. Here is the proof once more…

what this doctrine denies is the law of Christ..

which is? the elder shall serve the younger.

or...the righteous shall die for the unrighteous

or...the lamb (atonement) shall die for the goat (wicked).

or...the husband dies for the wife.

or...the male dies for the female.

or...jesus the first born or head dies for his body.

or ...his body dies for Gods creation (his brothers and sisters).


or...vessels of mercy dieing for the vessels of wrath.


Rom 11:26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

does this mean that Jesus the head dies for his body which dies for his brothers and sisters.

thats God loving man, and man loving man.

if the atonement is not universal. then the sacrifice of the firstfruit (head and body) can be paralleled with molech burning his peoples firstborn for the sake of the sins of their parents. whereas in Gods family...the parent as well as the children dies for each other.

again the elder serving the younger..or by Gods reckonings the righteous vessels whom are first shown mercy are to serve or forgive or love or yes even die (sacrifice) for the unrighteous vessels of wrath.

in this example God shows us by using the example of the vessels of mercy and wrath that eventually both groups enter into christ.

what is the point (limited atonement) if only a few are saved? is it that God doesnt love man completely?.
or that men doesnt love man completely?

you guys cant see this, can you?

limited atonement is "not true" in the extent of its intended scope....

there is more in the atonement of Jesus that meets the eye. look to the law of Christ. the law of the firstborn.


Me2

 

[Yelsew2]

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Yelsew said,

"Brian, If there had been no atonement for the sins of the World, there could be no salvation!"

Brian said,
You misunderstood the sense I was using “world.” I accept responsibility for not being clear. Words are not univocal. In the passage you quoted I was using it to refer to the non-elect.</font>[/QUOTE]Brian, There is no "world of the non elect"! There are saved and unsaved only. Jesus’ Atonement covers them ALL!

It is a serious mistake gentiles make in believing a “doctrine of the elect”. For gentiles there are no elect, only saved and unsaved, Believers and Unbelievers. The elect are the Jews, and among them there are believers and unbelievers, too!

 

[Yelsew2]

Me2 said,

mankind must arrive at perfect spiritual comprehension (knowledge) and agreement for the need of justice to occur and agree with Gods law that transgressions have occurred against an authority higher than mankind itself. and that their end result is that they themselves be placed in spiritual death.

What I see in your statement is that man without knowledge is not spiritually dead! That man must agree with God in order to become spiritually dead.

What scriptures do you say support that?

 

[Yelsew2]

Me2 said,

which now we must become "baptised into the death of Christ".
we're both buried into spiritual death.
our old spirits carcass remains in death.

No sir, this simply cannot stand up under scrutiny! If our old "carnal spirit" dies, then why is it that "Born Again Christians" continue to sin? Remember your line of thinking is that when we are baptised our old nature (spirit) dies. Earlier you called this the Carnal spirit so let's see what carnal means.

carnal, adj.
1. pertaining to or characterized by the flesh or the body, its passions and appetites; sensual: carnal pleasures.
2. not spiritual; merely human; temporal; worldly: a man of secular, rather carnal, leanings.
--carnality, carnalness, carnalism, n.
--carnally, adv.
--Syn. 1. bodily, lustful, lecherous, lascivious, libidinous, concupiscent. CARNAL, SENSUAL, FLESHLY, ANIMAL all refer to bodily rather than rational or spiritual aspects of humans. CARNAL, although it may refer to the body as opposed to the spirit, often refers to sexual needs or urges: carnal cravings, attractions, satisfactions. SENSUAL implies a suggestion of eroticism: sensual eyes; a sensual dance; it may also refer to experience of the senses: a sensual delight. FLESHLY may refer to any physical need or appetite, sex as well as hunger and thirst: the fleshly sin of gluttony; fleshly yearnings. ANIMAL refers to sexual appetites in a censorious way only; it may also describe pleasing or admirable physical characteristics or appearance: animal lust; to move with animal grace. 2. earthly, natural.

Those who have been baptized, thus putting their carnal spirit to death, would not; no let me say, "COULD NOT" have any carnal inclinations at all! Yet, human life continues including all of its carnality until the human flesh dies. The born again Christian enters into spiritual warfare against his/her own carnality the minute he/she submits to the Gospel, and that warfare continues throughout natural life.

Baptism does not end the life of the carnal spirit any more than it ends the life of the flesh! No, Me2, you are quite simply wrong!

 

[Me2]

Yelsew2,

Mat 4:4 But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.

Mat 4:10 Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.

sound encripted but we know "after the fact" that God created everything first and man must believe to be what he eventually becomes.

what he believes consist of what God says exists.
(knowledge of good and Evil)
therefore man must agree with God what is before he becomes it. cause and effect, as it has been laid out by a greater influence.

God has said that every man (spiritually) dies and then the judgement.

Heb 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

As an example paul lays out....


Gal 3:23 But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.

Rom 7:9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.

Gal 3:24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster [to bring us] unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.

Gal 3:25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.

Heb 11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

1Pe 1:9 Receiving the end of your faith, [even] the salvation of [your] souls.

just as the law has an end, so does faith in bringing man to the knowledge of reality. of his Environment called heaven or "in Christ"


we see that before the law we were alive spiritually. (our old carnal spirit)

the seed (or law) was given to us.
sin revived.
our old spirit dies. we enter spiritual death.

the law delivers us unto spiritual death.

In Death We are placed into christ by faith. we hold onto this faith until it delivers us unto its designed reality.

wisdom plus understanding equals knowledge or reality..that Christ is indeed "within Us"

God said it. Now I have to experience it to accept it or believe it. I need wisdom as well as proof or understanding. the spirit that God gives us comes with another kind of faith. righteous faith. I accept or agree with this new faith of Christ to be delivered from death. in death I receive a revelation that the power of God has come within me and has resurrected me. that requires faith in his words of wisdom to me. and also requires a revelation or understanding that he also gives me. faith brings my consciousness to an understanding of knowledge of Self. The christ spirit is inside me. not based on what I believe to be true by my old faith of my old spirit. but based on the faith of the new spirit within me. the word of God becoming flesh.

It is the knowledge of the new spirit within me.

It is not me as my old dead self but I now agreeing with the God of reality. It is the knowledge of the Christ spirit within me that I am witnessing to.

1Co 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

the word becoming flesh. my flesh. Christs Body.

this is the promised image to mankind. To ALL.

As God treats all men equally and non partially.

It will happen to all men. the church is simply the first batch. the first born. Christs Head and Body.

Me2

 

[Me2]

Yelsew2,

Baptism (water) is meerly a symbol of faith within the believer who is waiting for this spiritual action to become a reality towards them.

if water baptism were true to form. we should be duncked under and never come up! water baptism represents death. (remember the flood)

yet I mention baptised "into the death" of Christ

Rom 6:3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
Rom 6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

this is not symbolic by nature. it is a real spiritual action. we agree that our offense requires justice. namely death. it is God who carries us into spiritual death and resurrects us out. yet in our physical life. the possibility or awareness that this spiritual activity is occurring may not be perceptable. we hold this activity to be occuring by faith.

now your point that resurrected saints sin.

remember we walk by faith and not by sight.

there is now two opposite wills within us.

Christ and ourself.
we are to humble ourselves to his will.

spiritually it is impossible to lay charge of sin to Christ. It is impossible to sin or hold condemnation as we are aware that we now have a new spirit.
yet our will (mind) still walks by sight. to our outside observances we can sin. yet spiritually it is not laid to our new spirits charge.
we should be growing in knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ yet we still live in a world of sin with a physical flesh carcass made of the same substance.

that of death and sin.
paul adresses this issue. opposite mindsets working against themselves in romans 8. if we be raise in christ. there is now no condemnation.

Yelsew, I know that many think that they will not spiritually see death. that is biblically wrong.

it is appointed that all men Spiritually die.
the symbolism of baptism is an outward expression of an inward spiritual reality. we enter into spiritual death and our old man (spirit) remains there as we are resurrected anew in the spirit of Christ.

Me2

 

[Yelsew2]

God has said that every man (spiritually) dies and then the judgement.

Are you sure that is what the scripture says?

Hebrews 9:24. For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us:
25. Nor yet that he should offer himself often, as the high priest entereth into the holy place every year with blood of others;
26. For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.
27. And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:
28. So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

I don't find the word "spiritually" in this or any other context. Am I supposed to add it as you have done?

Every human who ever lived upon the face of the earth MUST DIE in the flesh, in order for his spirit to be set free. It is ONLY after the death of the flesh that the spirit then faces judgment!

The Faith condition of the human spirit determines whether man's spirit faces two judgments or only one, the judgment of deeds. EVERY man faces judgment of deeds, but Jesus told us, in telling Nicodemus, that believers in HIM are not judged, but that unbelievers are judged already by their unbelief.

 

[Yelsew2]

we see that before the law we were alive spiritually. (our old carnal spirit)

When did you precede the Law? Do you precede Moses?

The innocence of young childhood is "before the law" for until one can 'hear' (meaning understand) one is innocent of the law.

 

[Yelsew2]

Baptism (water) is meerly a symbol of faith within the believer who is waiting for this spiritual action to become a reality towards them.

if water baptism were true to form. we should be duncked under and never come up! water baptism represents death. (remember the flood)

You are wrong! Baptism never ends with one being left under the water. Just as Jesus was raised from the dead, the baptizee is raised from the water to symbolically represent resurrection in Christ!

It was not those outside the ARK that were baptized, but those within the ARK! They are the ones who passed through the flood. All others perished by the flood.

 

[Yelsew2]

there is now two opposite wills within us.

HOW CAN THAT BE? You said that our carnal spirit died, and was replaced by the spirit of Christ. Replaced means the old item is removed and a "new" like item is installed in its place. The old is no longer part of man according to your definition that the carnal spirit died!

So what's it going to be Me2? Are you going to stick to the scripture or are you going to keep coming up with "Me2isms"?

 

[Yelsew2]

Yelsew, I know that many think that they will not spiritually see death. that is biblically wrong.

On this statement we agree, but we do not agree on the principle behind the statement.

What you cannot grasp is that scripture never says that the human spirit, the life of the flesh, dies until the final judgment of Rev 20:14,15 "Death and Hades were emptied of the dead that were in them; and every one was judged as his deeds deserved. Then Death and Hades were hurled into the burning lake. This burning lake is the second death; and anybody whose name could not be found written in the book of life was hurled into the burning lake. Heb 9:27 does say, "And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment" Yes, every man who is living in the flesh must die, and that is when the spirit of man is separated from the flesh. The spirit goes to one of two places. The believing spirit to be with the Christ, the unbelieving spirit to await the final judgement. ALL, believers and unbelievers alike will have their deeds judged. But then only the unbelievers are cast into the lake of fire.

This being cast into the lake of fire is the final judgement of unbelieving man (who is spirit in the image of God). Jesus said (John 3:18) those who believe do not face this final judgement but pass from death into life eternal. But those who lack faith are cast into the lake of fire, the second death. It is this "second death" by which there is spiritual death, for it is the spirits of unbelieving man, the evil spirits, the Father of Lies Satan (who is spirit), who are cast into this lake of fire.

The spirit of man cannot die until it is thrown into the lake of fire, then it cannot escape therefrom! So your theology about human spirit is wrong! You really need to learn to discern truth from fiction!

The faith condition of man is ALL there is that determines one's SALVATION! There is nothing else!

 

[Me2]

Yelsew2,

26. For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.
27. And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

I get to turn one around on you. .

did Jesus come from life into our world of death?

this could be a phrase denoting his own appointment to exit heaven (life) and enter into our spiritual world (death). and be judged by his father.

this physical world is a reflection of a real spiritual realm. we exist in a spiritual world.
one in which God says is cursed.
Jesus entered into this world. this realm of spiritual death. and he was resurrected from it.

death to human beings as you like to referr to it is simply the disintegration of physical molecules.

I Speak of the spiritual world in which we live in simultaneously. the realm where we exist in a cursed spiritual form. a form which is unacceptable before God. and this form (spirit) must be judged.

It was judged yelsew. on the day that Adam sinned.
we are to die. remain forever in this state seperated from Gods righteousness.

it is judged yelsew. Life as you and I know it is the death of our old spirit and to be resurrected from it into a spiritual enlightenment and awareness. into a higher consciousness above our old carnal understanding. we see and hear with the eyes and ears of Christ now.

Everyone is appointed to spiritually die yelsew.

In my sense I can say that they must die to their own form of present death. and be removed from this world and be resurrected into the opposite world. one of Life.

there is now two opposite wills within us.

opposite wills yelsew. only one spirit.
two minds.

Mat 22:37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.

1Co 2:15 But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man.
1Co 2:16 For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ.

two mind. his and ours. what are his instructions.

be of one mind. same thoughts, same conclusions.

Rom 15:5 Now the God of patience and consolation grant you to be likeminded one toward another according to Christ Jesus:
Rom 15:6 That ye may with one mind [and] one mouth glorify God, even the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Me2

 

[Yelsew2]

I get to turn one around on you. .

did Jesus come from life into our world of death?

this could be a phrase denoting his own appointment to exit heaven (life) and enter into our spiritual world (death). and be judged by his father.

this physical world is a reflection of a real spiritual realm. we exist in a spiritual world.
one in which God says is cursed.
Jesus entered into this world. this realm of spiritual death. and he was resurrected from it.

death to human beings as you like to referr to it is simply the disintegration of physical molecules.

I Speak of the spiritual world in which we live in simultaneously. the realm where we exist in a cursed spiritual form. a form which is unacceptable before God. and this form (spirit) must be judged.

It was judged yelsew. on the day that Adam sinned.
we are to die. remain forever in this state seperated from Gods righteousness.

it is judged yelsew. Life as you and I know it is the death of our old spirit and to be resurrected from it into a spiritual enlightenment and awareness. into a higher consciousness above our old carnal understanding. we see and hear with the eyes and ears of Christ now.

Everyone is appointed to spiritually die yelsew.

In my sense I can say that they must die to their own form of present death. and be removed from this world and be resurrected into the opposite world. one of Life.

Jesus behaved in accordance with all that is common to man except in the area of sin. In the Hebrews 9 passage, verse 27 speaks of the principle that all men must die, then the judgment. Verse 28 speaks of how Jesus complied with that principle in the manner of all men, that is it appointed unto man "once to die". Therefore, there is but one Atonement for the whole of mankind, the "once-for-all" atonement of Jesus Christ.

If you wish to speak only of the spirit realm, you cannot do so by applying scriptures that speak of the physical realm.

Do you agree that man is spirit, "in the image of God" whom Jesus told us "...is spirit, and all who worship must worship in spirit and in truth"?
Do you agree that in order for the spirit of man to be set free, the physical flesh of man must die?
Do you agree with scripture that says that the believing man passes from death (physical death) into life eternal?
Can you agree with the words of Jesus where he said, {John 6:63} 'It is the spirit that gives life, the flesh has nothing to offer. The words I have spoken to you are spirit and they are life'.

As for the rest of your comment, Me2, I don't believe your theology is in accordance with scripture.