All There Is About Parousia

[John of Japan]

Isaiah 19:1
A prophecy against Egypt: See, the LORD rides on a swift cloud and is coming to Egypt. The idols of Egypt tremble before him, and the hearts of the Egyptians melt with fear.

Do you believe this is a physical coming in this passage?

The Hebrew word used is ū·ḇa and is used around 50 other times as a physical coming.

As I told you on the other thread (and you did not answer), this reference is an anthropomorphism. Do you understand what that is?

Why couldn't we argue the OT comings are physical just based on the word they use?

You can do that if you do the research to prove that the particular Hebrew word always means "physical coming." But as I said, the passage you mentioned is an anthropomorphism.

Why is it that so few who believe in allegorical interpretation understand what a figure of speech is? It took Bullinger, a dispensationalist who believed in literal interpretation, to write the definitive work on figures of speech in the Bible. We literalists know what a figure of speech is and how to interpret it.

So we need hammer out Parousia, but when we argued the phrase "this generation", it meant race in this chapter but no where else in the NT.

First of all, I pointed out quite a few places where genea can mean race. So you are wrong.

Secondly, this is apples and oranges. Every semantic unit has it's own unique range of meaning. You can't conflate the meanings of two lexical units, or the way they must be interpreted.

 

[John of Japan]

Poorly worded post may have been confusing.

But, are you saying that the anticipated arrival of one who is to arrive as anticipated is not a use of parousia?

But of course there is.

I have found no data to indicate that "anticipated arrival" is a use of parousia. I would be happy to consider that meaning if data is found.

As I have been pondering this, I wonder if I am thinking of the "promise of his coming" (2 Peter 3:4) and that until then the believers carry that promise in them, despite the mocking.

In this passage, "coming" is of course parousia. However, I would say that the meaning of anticipation is attached to "promise" instead of "coming."

But I agree that the use assigned to some symbol of authority (ring, robe, scepter) that a ruler may send to signify his presence may only be found in the classical and not koine.

Interestingly enough, according to the BAGD lexicon, parousia "became the official term for a visit of a person of high rank, esp. of kings and emperors visiting a province" (p. 630). That would, of course, be a physical visit, and strengthens the interpretation of Christ the King coming to earth on an official, physical visit.

 

[agedman]

I didn't feel you were derailing the thread with your Kittel post. In fact, it reminded me that I bought TDNT second had recently and need to consult it myself for this thread.

May I, for information sake, put the thread in a side rail to consult your thinking of the “Little Kittel” (Dr. Bromiley).

It is available as an “app” from https://www.olivetree.com/store/product.php?productid=16678
I am not concerned for myself, but wondering if it is recommended for students who have little to spend, but have need of good software (not knowing the value, nor recommending any software).

 

[John of Japan]

Let's go through the times parousia is translated "coming" in reference to Christ in the KJV. Here the first four, all from the Olivet Discourse:

"And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what [shall be] the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?" (Matt. 24:3).

This has to be a physical coming, not a presence, since the disciples are referring to an eschatalogical event. They would not be asking Him about His "presence," since He was right there in front of Him.

"For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be" (Matt. 24:27).

This refers to a physical coming of Christ, not a presence, since the image is of lightening, which is a moving phenomenon, not some kind of presence.

"But as the days of Noe [were], so shall also the coming of the Son of man be" (Matt. 24:37).

Looking at the context of the coming (not presence) of the flood, I can't see this as other than a "coming."

"And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be" (Matt. 24:39).

This is quite obviously a "coming," just as the previous reference was, because the flood was not a presence. It came and "took them away."

 

[HankD]

I didn't feel you were derailing the thread with your Kittel post. In fact, it reminded me that I bought TDNT second had recently and need to consult it myself for this thread.

Oh, OK - its a very interesting read and goes into many other historical usages.

HankD

 

[John of Japan]

May I, for information sake, put the thread in a side rail to consult your thinking of the “Little Kittel” (Dr. Bromiley).

It is available as an “app” from https://www.olivetree.com/store/product.php?productid=16678
I am not concerned for myself, but wondering if it is recommended for students who have little to spend, but have need of good software (not knowing the value, nor recommending any software).

I don't recommend Kittel (TDNT) for someone not educated in either Greek and/or linguistics. It spends too much time on etymology (historical linguistics) rather than contemporary usage, and is thus out of date. It has been criticized roundly by Moises Silva (Biblical Words and Their Meaning) and other linguists and exegetes. If you know what you are doing, you can glean from it, but it is easy to be misled for someone without a Greek or linguistic background.

 

[HankD]

I don't recommend Kittel (TDNT) for someone not educated in either Greek and/or linguistics. It spends too much time on etymology (historical linguistics) rather than contemporary usage, and is thus out of date. It has been criticized roundly by Moises Silva (Biblical Words and Their Meaning) and other linguists and exegetes. If you know what you are doing, you can glean from it, but it is easy to be misled for someone without a Greek or linguistic background.

Thanks John. This is quite true as well as the theological background of some (maybe even most) of the contributors is not to our liking.
To the extent of neo-orthodoxy.

HankD

 

[agedman]

I don't recommend Kittel (TDNT) for someone not educated in either Greek and/or linguistics. It spends too much time on etymology (historical linguistics) rather than contemporary usage, and is thus out of date. It has been criticized roundly by Moises Silva (Biblical Words and Their Meaning) and other linguists and exegetes. If you know what you are doing, you can glean from it, but it is easy to be misled for someone without a Greek or linguistic background.

Thank you.

I started a thread about “digging tools” and greatly desire your input as one still in the trenches and probably far closer to seeing the typical needs of student tools.

Now, can the thread return to the main track? I am getting re-education and memory cars connected.

 

[John of Japan]

Thank you.

I started a thread about “digging tools” and greatly desire your input as one still in the trenches and probably far closer to seeing the typical needs of student tools.

Now, can the thread return to the main track? I am getting re-education and memory cars connected.

Glad you're enjoying the thread. I'll take a look at "digging tools."

 

[Iconoclast]

Isaiah 19:1
A prophecy against Egypt: See, the LORD rides on a swift cloud and is coming to Egypt. The idols of Egypt tremble before him, and the hearts of the Egyptians melt with fear.

Do you believe this is a physical coming in this passage?

The Hebrew word used is ū·ḇa and is used around 50 other times as a physical coming.

Why couldn't we argue the OT comings are physical just based on the word they use?

So we need hammer out Parousia, but when we argued the phrase "this generation", it meant race in this chapter but no where else in the NT.

If it was a figure of speech, an anthropomorphism, a quaint saying...it has a literal meaning;

Isaiah 19:1
A prophecy against Egypt: See, the LORD rides on a swift cloud and is coming to Egypt. The idols of Egypt tremble before him, and the hearts of the Egyptians melt with fear.

Do you believe this is a physical coming in this passage?

The Hebrew word used is ū·ḇa and is used around 50 other times as a physical coming.

Why couldn't we argue the OT comings are physical just based on the word they use?

So we need hammer out Parousia, but when we argued the phrase "this generation", it meant race in this chapter but no where else in the NT.

Found this;
Verses 1-17 Though the land of Egypt had of old been a house of bondage to the people of God, where they had been ruled with rigour, yet among the unbelieving Jews there still remained much of the humour of their fathers, who said, Let us make us a captain and return into Egypt. Upon all occasions they trusted to Egypt for help ch. 30:2 ), and thither they fled, in disobedience to God’s express command, when things were brought to the last extremity in their own country, Jer. 43:7 . Rabshakeh upbraided Hezekiah with this, ch. 36:6 . While they kept up an alliance with Egypt, and it was a powerful ally, they stood not in awe of the judgments of God; for against them they depended upon Egypt to protect them. Nor did they depend upon the power of God when at any time they were in distress; but Egypt was their confidence. To prevent all this mischief, Egypt must be mortified, and many ways God here tells them he will take to mortify them.I. The gods of Egypt shall appear to them to be what they always really were, utterly unable to help them, v. 1. "The Lord rides upon a cloud, a swift cloud, and shall come into Egypt. As a judge goes in state to the bench to try and condemn the malefactors, or as a general takes the field with his troops to crush the rebels, so shall God come into Egypt with his judgments; and when he comes he will certainly overcome.’’ In all this burden of Egypt here is no mention of any foreign enemy invading them; but God himself will come against them, and raise up the causes of their destruction from among themselves. He comes upon a cloud, above the reach of the opposition or resistance. He comes apace upon a swift cloud; for their judgment lingers not when the time has come. He rides upon the wings of the wind, with a majesty far excelling the greatest pomp and splendour of earthly princes. He makes the clouds his chariots, Ps. 18:9 Ps. 104:3 . When he comes the idols of Egypt shall be moved, shall be removed at his presence, and perhaps be made to fall as Dagon did before the ark. Isis, Osiris, and Apis, those celebrated idols of Egypt, being found unable to relieve their worshippers, shall be disowned and rejected by them. Idolatry had got deeper rooting in Egypt than in any land besides, even the most absurd idolatries; and yet now the idols shall be moved and they shall be ashamed of them. When the Lord brought Israel out of Egypt he executed judgments upon the gods of the Egyptians(Num. 33:4 ); no marvel then if, when he comes, they begin to tremble. The Egyptians shall seek to the idols, when they are at their wits’ end, and consult the charmers and wizards (v. 3); but all in vain; they see their ruin hastening on them notwithstanding.II. The militia of Egypt, that had been famed for their valour, shall be quite dispirited and disheartened. No kingdom in the world was ever in a better method of keeping up a standing army than the Egyptians were; but now their heroes, that used to be celebrated for courage, shall be posted for cowards: The heart of Egypt shall melt in the midst of it,like wax before the fire (v. 1); the spirit of Egypt shall fail, v. 3. They shall have no inclination, no resolution, to stand up in defence of their country, their liberty, and property; but shall tamely and ingloriously yield all to the invader and oppressor. The Egyptians shall be like women (v. 16); they shall be frightened and put into confusion by the least alarm; even those that dwell in the heart of the country, in the midst of it, and therefore furthest from danger, will be as full of frights as those that are situate on the frontiers. Let not the bold and brave be proud or secure, for God can easily cut off the spirit of princes(Ps. 76:12 ) and take away their hearts, Job. 12:24 .III. The Egyptians shall be embroiled in endless dissensions and quarrels among themselves. There shall be no occasion to bring a foreign force upon them to destroy them; they shall destroy one another (v. 2): I will set the Egyptians against the Egyptians. As these divisions and animosities are their sin, God is not the author of them, they come from men’s lusts; but God, as a Judge, permits them for their punishment, and by their destroying differences corrects them for their sinful agreements. Instead of helping one another, and acting each in his place for the common good, they shall fight every one against his brother and neighbour, whom he ought to love as himself—city against city, and kingdom against kingdom.

 

[Iconoclast]

Earlier it was posted;

This is a key passage because parousia is "coming," but a different word is used for "presence," the preposition emprosthen, usually meaning "before" but often "presence" with the genitive case. In other words, the word used most often for "presence" in the Greek NT is not parousia, but emprosthen. This is contra the asterisktom insistence on parousia as meaning "presence' in the NT, even when everyone else translates it as "coming."

Verse (Click for Chapter)
New International Version
A prophecy against Egypt: See, the LORD rides on a swift cloud and is coming to Egypt. The idols of Egypt tremble before him, and the hearts of the Egyptians melt with fear.

New Living Translation
This message came to me concerning Egypt: Look! The LORD is advancing against Egypt, riding on a swift cloud. The idols of Egypt tremble. The hearts of the Egyptians melt with fear.

English Standard Version
An oracle concerning Egypt. Behold, the LORD is riding on a swift cloud and comes to Egypt; and the idols of Egypt will tremble at his presence, and the heart of the Egyptians will melt within them.

New American Standard Bible
The oracle concerning Egypt. Behold, the LORD is riding on a swift cloud and is about to come to Egypt; The idols of Egypt will tremble at His presence, And the heart of the Egyptians will melt within them.

King James Bible
The burden of Egypt. Behold, the LORD rideth upon a swift cloud, and shall come into Egypt: and the idols of Egypt shall be moved at his presence, and the heart of Egypt shall melt in the midst of it.

Holman Christian Standard Bible
An oracle against Egypt: Look, the LORD rides on a swift cloud and is coming to Egypt. Egypt's idols will tremble before Him, and Egypt's heart will melt within it.

International Standard Version
A message about Egypt: "Watch out! The LORD rides on a swift cloud, and is coming to Egypt. The idols of Egypt tremble before him, and the hearts of the Egyptians melt within them.

NET Bible
Here is a message about Egypt: Look, the LORD rides on a swift-moving cloud and approaches Egypt. The idols of Egypt tremble before him; the Egyptians lose their courage.

New Heart English Bible
The burden of Egypt: "Look, the LORD rides on a swift cloud, and comes to Egypt. The idols of Egypt will tremble at his presence; and the heart of Egypt will melt in its midst.

GOD'S WORD® Translation
This is the divine revelation about Egypt. The LORD is riding on a fast-moving cloud and is coming to Egypt. Egypt's idols will tremble in his presence. Egypt's courage will fail.

JPS Tanakh 1917
The burden of Egypt. Behold, the LORD rideth upon a swift cloud, And cometh unto Egypt; And the idols of Egypt shall be moved at His presence, And the heart of Egypt shall melt within it.

New American Standard 1977
The oracle concerning Egypt.
Behold, the LORD is riding on a swift cloud, and is about to come to Egypt;
The idols of Egypt will tremble at His presence,
And the heart of the Egyptians will melt within them.

Jubilee Bible 2000
The burden of Egypt. Behold, the LORD rides upon a swift cloud and shall come into Egypt, and the idols of Egypt shall be moved at his presence, and the heart of Egypt shall melt in the midst of it.

King James 2000 Bible
The burden concerning Egypt. Behold, the LORD rides upon a swift cloud, and shall come into Egypt: and the idols of Egypt shall tremble at his presence, and the heart of Egypt shall melt in the midst of it.

American King James Version
The burden of Egypt. Behold, the LORD rides on a swift cloud, and shall come into Egypt: and the idols of Egypt shall be moved at his presence, and the heart of Egypt shall melt in the middle of it.

American Standard Version
The burden of Egypt. Behold, Jehovah rideth upon a swift cloud, and cometh unto Egypt: and the idols of Egypt shall tremble at his presence; and the heart of Egypt shall melt in the midst of it.

Douay-Rheims Bible
THE burden of Egypt. Behold the Lord will ascend upon a swift cloud, and will enter into Egypt, and the idols of Egypt shall be moved at his presence, and the heart of Egypt shall melt in the midst thereof.

Darby Bible Translation
The burden of Egypt. Behold, Jehovah rideth upon a swift cloud, and cometh to Egypt; and the idols of Egypt are moved at his presence, and the heart of Egypt melteth in the midst of it.

English Revised Version
The burden of Egypt. Behold, the LORD rideth upon a swift cloud, and cometh unto Egypt: and the idols of Egypt shall be moved at his presence, and the heart of Egypt shall melt in the midst of it.

Webster's Bible Translation
The burden of Egypt. Behold, the LORD rideth upon a swift cloud, and will come into Egypt: and the idols of Egypt shall be moved at his presence, and the heart of Egypt shall melt in the midst of it.

World English Bible
The burden of Egypt: "Behold, Yahweh rides on a swift cloud, and comes to Egypt. The idols of Egypt will tremble at his presence; and the heart of Egypt will melt in its midst.

Young's Literal Translation
The burden of Egypt. Lo, Jehovah is riding on a swift thick cloud, And He hath entered Egypt, And moved have been the idols of Egypt at His presence, And the heart of Egypt melteth in its midst.

His coming and presence seem to be linked here.
Is that different from what was suggested by the two words for coming and presence?

Does it have to be a face to face appearing?

 

[John of Japan]

Earlier it was posted;
...
Does it have to be a face to face appearing?

I have no idea what you are trying to say here. The quote from my post was about 1 Thess. 2:19, not Is. 19:1, which is Hebrew and thus does not have parousia even in the LXX.

 

[HankD]

You know we need to look inwardly as well as throwing rocks at others.

Not that judgements can be dismissed easily because the sphere of influence must be evaluated.

Jesus who said Judge not, that ye be not judged.

also said Judge not according to the appearance, but judge righteous judgment.

We need to be really really careful if we start making public accusations in the face of presumption of innocence.

Remember Jesus said to look and then desire to do evil is the same as actually doing it.

Granted we need to make a judgement about a sheep if he growls and has fangs.

HankD

 

[HankD]

Hmm, #53 was meant for one of the political forums

But if it works, it works.
We do get a little rough with each other...

I'm no exception. Though I'm not as quick to put on the gloves as I used to be.


HankD

 

[Iconoclast]

I have no idea what you are trying to say here. The quote from my post was about 1 Thess. 2:19, not Is. 19:1, which is Hebrew and thus does not have parousia even in the LXX.

There is no equivalent in the Septuagint for come or coming....parousia in the isa19 passage???

 

[robycop3]

All I see is dancing around the FACT that Jesus has not yet physically, visibly returned, in the manner HE HIMSELF said He will.

Remember, the angels present as His ascension said Jesus will return IN LIKE (not exact) MANNER. that means He will be visible & physically present. But some for-sure differences will be that He will be in great power & glory, & will be seen by ALL.

Yes, I know that wherever/whenever two or more are gathered in His name, He will be SPIRITUALLY present, but that's not the same as His coming PHYSICAL return. Right now, jesus is still the nobleman in His parable, on a journey to receive His kingdom. But He WILL return & deal with those who say He's not coming, or who don't want Him as King.

 

[prophecy70]

First of all, I pointed out quite a few places where genea can mean race. So you are wrong.

Where you interpret it as race. Quite a few eh? I don't remember the "quite a few". So no I am not wrong

As I told you on the other thread (and you did not answer), this reference is an anthropomorphism. Do you understand what that is?

So because Jesus has flesh this has to be literal?

Matthew 24:30
And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

Why is it that so few who believe in allegorical interpretation understand what a figure of speech is? It took Bullinger, a dispensationalist who believed in literal interpretation, to write the definitive work on figures of speech in the Bible. We literalists know what a figure of speech is and how to interpret it.

It took almost 1900 years to figure out the figures of speech in the Bible?

 

[prophecy70]

All I see is dancing around the FACT that Jesus has not yet physically, visibly returned, in the manner HE HIMSELF said He will.

Remember, the angels present as His ascension said Jesus will return IN LIKE (not exact) MANNER. that means He will be visible & physically present. But some for-sure differences will be that He will be in great power & glory, & will be seen by ALL.

Yes, I know that wherever/whenever two or more are gathered in His name, He will be SPIRITUALLY present, but that's not the same as His coming PHYSICAL return. Right now, jesus is still the nobleman in His parable, on a journey to receive His kingdom. But He WILL return & deal with those who say He's not coming, or who don't want Him as King.

Proverbs 4:10

 

[John of Japan]

There is no equivalent in the Septuagint for come or coming....parousia in the isa19 passage???

No, there is no equivalent. See post #7, where I list all of the usages of parousia in the LXX.

Is. 19:1--Hebrew; parousia--Greek
Is. 19:1--a verb; parousia--a noun
Is. 19:1--riding on a cloud; parousia--never used with a verb meaning "riding," much less on a cloud
Is. 19:1--anthropomorphism, "God"; parousia--in the NT when about Christ (17 times), always the actual presence of Christ in His human body

I could go on for awhile.

 

[John of Japan]

Now note the usages of parousia in the Thessalonian epistles (the most prophetic of Paul's writings):

1Th 2:19 For what [is] our hope, or joy, or crown of rejoicing? [Are] not even ye in the presence of our Lord Jesus Christ at his coming?

If this is translated as "presence," the result is strange. Paul had already used the preposition emprosthen to say "presence."

1Th 3:13 To the end he may stablish your hearts unblameable in holiness before God, even our Father, at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all his saints.

This is obviously "coming," since it will be "with all His saints." Furthermore, once again we have emprosthen, though here it is translated "before." However, it would have been perfectly natural to translate the prepositional phrase "in the presence of God" just as in the previous verse.

1Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive [and] remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

It would be very strange to translate this usage of parousia with "presence." It must be "coming," because an event is predicted, but "presence" describes a state of being.

1Th 5:23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and [I pray God] your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

As in the previous verse, an event is described by parousia, not a state of being.

2Th 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and [by] our gathering together unto him, (see the context)

Again, an event is described, not a state of being, since "gathering" (episunagoge) is the parallel noun to parousia, and a "gathering" is always an event.

2Th 2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

Once again, parousia is used here to describe an event. It would be strange if the "brightness of his coming" was used to describe a process of destruction. No, Antichrist will be destroyed simply by the awesome appearance in the sky of the glorified Christ.