All There Is About Parousia

[John of Japan]

I forgot the other usage of parousia in Paul's epistles:

1Co 15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

Look at the context, notably v. 22: "For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive." The resurrection of the dead will not be a process (a presence), just as the sin of Adam was not a process, but an event.

 

[prophecy70]

No, Antichrist will be destroyed simply by the awesome appearance in the sky of the glorified Christ.

That one world ruler man at the end of times that rebuilds the temple in Jerusalem bringing peace to 15 millions jews and 1.6 billion muslims?

 

[HankD]

I forgot the other usage of parousia in Paul's epistles:

1Co 15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

Look at the context, notably v. 22: "For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive." The resurrection of the dead will not be a process (a presence), just as the sin of Adam was not a process, but an event.

Thank you JoJ.

HankD

 

[John of Japan]

Where you interpret it as race. Quite a few eh? I don't remember the "quite a few". So no I am not wrong

Whatever. Just don't derail the thread.

So because Jesus has flesh this has to be literal?

Okay, I'll answer my own question. You don't know what an anthropomorphism is. Is. 19:1 employs the anthropomorphism of God riding on a cloud to make a point about judgment, not to describe a physical event. On the other hand, there is not a single instance of a prophecy of Christ's coming in the NT where an anthropomorphism is used.

Matthew 24:30
And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

There is no anthropomorphism here, nor are there any other figures of speech. Christ is not "riding" on the clouds in this verse, but "coming in the clouds." Is. 19:1 is not a parallel to Matt. 24:30 in any way.

It took almost 1900 years to figure out the figures of speech in the Bible?

No, absolutely not. Everyone who knows languages from the beginning of time knows what a figure of speech is and can recognize one. The Bible itself refers to figures of speech. The term "figure" is used a number of times for what we call a figure of speech: Heb. 9:9, 1 Peter 3:21, etc.

The translators of the LXX knew about figures of speech. Ulfilas the Bible translator and missionary to the Goths in the 4th century knew about them. Jerome, the translator of the Vulgate, knew about them. The unknown translators of the Peshitta knew about them. Luther knew about them when he translated the German Bible. The KJV translators knew about them. I know about them and take them into account in my role as lead translator of the Lifeline Japanese NT.

if someone doesn't understand figures of speech, I can guarantee they don't know languages. Ethelbert Bullinger was brilliant in languages, and therefore was able to write a comprehensive book about figures of speech in the Bible.

 

[John of Japan]

That one world ruler man at the end of times that rebuilds the temple in Jerusalem bringing peace to 15 millions jews and 1.6 billion muslims?

No, the man possessed by Satan who tries to rule the world and commits the abomination of desolation. Your picture here is quite different from the Bible portrayal.

But enough about this. Please don't derail the thread.

 

[prophecy70]

abomination of desolation

In the parallel
Luke 21
20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.

Yeah that already happened, in AD 70.

But alright, I wont say anymore on that.

The thread is yours captain.

 

[HankD]

In the parallel
Luke 21
20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.

Yeah that already happened, in AD 70.

But alright, I wont say anymore on that.

The thread is yours captain.

Armies is plural.
21 Century:

Last one to join before the parousia - Russia.

 

[prophecy70]

Armies is plural.
21 Century:

Last one to join before the parousia - Russia.
View attachment 1844

and then we are to flee into the mountains of Judea from our flat roof houses, praying its not on a sabbath.

 

[HankD]

and then we are to flee into the mountains of Judea from our flat roof houses, praying its not on a sabbath.

Only if you are a Jew in Israel at the parousia.

HankD

 

[John of Japan]

Armies is plural.
21 Century:

Last one to join before the parousia - Russia.
View attachment 1844

Bazoom!

 

[kyredneck]

Only if you are a Jew in Israel at the parousia.

....a first century Jew:

Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all these things be accomplished. Mt 24:34

Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, until all these things be accomplished. Mk 13:30

Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all things be accomplished. Lk 21:32

When You See Jerusalem Surrounded.....

 

[HankD]

....a first century Jew:

Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all these things be accomplished. Mt 24:34

Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, until all these things be accomplished. Mk 13:30

Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all things be accomplished. Lk 21:32

When You See Jerusalem Surrounded.....

This Generation - this is the generation which sees the invasion of Israel just before the parousia.

HankD

 

[John of Japan]

Thank you for the commercial, gentlemen. Now back to the thread. Did you notice my statements about parousia in the Olivet Discourse? Look at post #44. The word occurs 4 times in Matt. 24, and I contend that every single time must be a physical coming, not a presence.

 

[kyredneck]

This Generation - this is the generation which sees the invasion of Israel just before the parousia.

Yes. As I said, FIRST CENTURY JEWS. The scripture is very plainly self interpreting concerning 'this generation':

From Matthew:
28 Verily I say unto you, there are some of them that stand here, who shall in no wise taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom. Mt 16
34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all these things be accomplished. Mt 24

From Mark:
1 And he said unto them, Verily I say unto you, There are some here of them that stand by, who shall in no wise taste of death, till they see the kingdom of God come with power. Mk 9
30 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, until all these things be accomplished. Mk 13

From Luke:
27 But I tell you of a truth, There are some of them that stand here, who shall in no wise taste of death, till they see the kingdom of God. Lk 9
32 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all things be accomplished. Lk 21

 

[HankD]

Yes. As I said, FIRST CENTURY JEWS. The scripture is very plainly self interpreting concerning 'this generation':

From Matthew:
28 Verily I say unto you, there are some of them that stand here, who shall in no wise taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom. Mt 16
34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all these things be accomplished. Mt 24

From Mark:
1 And he said unto them, Verily I say unto you, There are some here of them that stand by, who shall in no wise taste of death, till they see the kingdom of God come with power. Mk 9
30 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, until all these things be accomplished. Mk 13

From Luke:
27 But I tell you of a truth, There are some of them that stand here, who shall in no wise taste of death, till they see the kingdom of God. Lk 9
32 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all things be accomplished. Lk 21

Then they are still here on planet earth awaiting the parousia and the events surrounding it and the generation who will be alive at the time.

HankD

 

[kyredneck]

Then they are still here on planet earth awaiting the parousia and the events surrounding it and the generation who will be alive at the time.

Wow, then maybe we should put a search out for the apostle John:

21 Peter therefore seeing him saith to Jesus, Lord, and what shall this man do?
22 Jesus saith unto him, If I will that he tarry till I come, what is that to thee? Follow thou me. Jn 21

It'd be really neat to talk to him.

 

[prophecy70]

Thank you for the commercial, gentlemen. Now back to the thread. Did you notice my statements about parousia in the Olivet Discourse? Look at post #44. The word occurs 4 times in Matt. 24, and I contend that every single time must be a physical coming, not a presence.

It was a "literal" coming, In judgment by the roman armies, in the first century, prophesied by Jesus to first century Jews in a temple that was still standing in the first century, a temple that was prophesied to be destroyed in that same generation (the first century), that actually did in that same century (the 1st) and generation.


"Besides these [signs], a few days after that feast, on the one- and-twentieth day of the month Artemisius, [Jyar,] a certain prodigious and incredible phenomenon appeared; I suppose the account of it would seem to be a fable, were it not related by those that saw it, and were not the events that followed it of so considerable a nature as to deserve such signals; for, before sun-setting, chariots and troops of soldiers in their armour were seen running about among the clouds, and surrounding of cities. Moreover, at that feast which we call Pentecost, as the priests were going by night into the inner [court of the] temple, as their custom was, to perform their sacred ministrations, they said that, in the first place, they felt a quaking, and heard a great noise, and after that they heard a sound as of a great multitude, saying, "Let us remove hence" (Jewish Wars, VI-V-3).

Tacitus
"13. Prodigies had occurred, but their expiation by the offering of victims or solemn vows is held to be unlawful by a nation which is the slave of superstition and the enemy of true beliefs. In the sky appeared a vision of armies in conflict, of glittering armour. A sudden lightning flash from the clouds lit up the Temple. The doors of the holy place abruptly opened, a superhuman voice was heard to declare that the gods were leaving it, and in the same instant came the rushing tumult of their departure. Few people placed a sinister interpretation upon this. The majority were convinced that the ancient scriptures of their priests alluded to the present as the very time when the Orient would triumph and from Judaea would go forth men destined to rule the world." (Histories, Book 5, v. 13).

Eusebius of Caesarea
"For before the setting of the sun chariots and armed troops were seen throughout the whole region in mid-air, wheeling through the clouds and encircling the cities" (Eusebius' Ecclesiastical History, Book 3, Ch. 8).

When these 1st century Jews asked these questions, they didn't understand Jesus was leaving, so how could they have asked about a coming back? They were asking about the end of OC Judaism and the beginning of Christ's kingdom.

 

[prophecy70]

Then they are still here on planet earth awaiting the parousia and the events surrounding it and the generation who will be alive at the time.

HankD

Yikes, Do you think the Apostle John uses internet forums?

 

[John of Japan]

It was a "literal" coming, In judgment by the roman armies, in the first century, prophesied by Jesus to first century Jews in a temple that was still standing in the first century, a temple that was prophesied to be destroyed in that same generation (the first century), that actually did in that same century (the 1st) and generation.

Yes, the coming of the Roman army was literal. ("Army," singular--Titus only led one army; see Josephus, "Wars of the Jews, Book V Ch. IX, Par. 1, "the army into battle array.") I am perfectly willing to state that God judged Jerusalem through the army of Titus. It was a providential judging, and God has often done such throughout history.

But in Matt. 24, as I have shown, Christ prophesied His own literal coming. As has been pointed out on this thread and many others, preterists cannot point to a single historical statement or record to the effect that the Christians of AD 70 observed Christ coming in any way, shape or form. So the judgment carried out providentially by Titus and his army in no way fulfill the parousia statements of the Olivet Discourse.

 

[prophecy70]

Yes, the coming of the Roman army (singular--Titus only led one army) was literal. I am perfectly willing to state that God judged Jerusalem through the army of Titus. It was a providential judging, and God has often done such throughout history.

But in Matt. 24, as I have shown, Christ prophesied His own literal coming. As has been pointed out on this thread and many others, preterists cannot point to a single historical statement or record to the effect that the Christians of AD 70 observed Christ coming in any way, shape or form. So the judgment carried out providentially by Titus and his army in no way fulfill the parousia statements of the Olivet Discourse.

Thats based on your preconceived idea of this passage.

Well in the future when it happens hopefully the Jewish people, for the lack of vehicles, can flee to the mountains from sitting on the flat top roofs, praying its not a sabbath day.

All these modern day armies from Hanks picture wouldn't see people fleeing?

I want to know if this is future, why are these armies surrounding Jerusalem? who are they going to war with? Isn't "nicolae carpathia" already sitting in this rebuilt temple?

"Besides these [signs], a few days after that feast, on the one- and-twentieth day of the month Artemisius, [Jyar,] a certain prodigious and incredible phenomenon appeared; I suppose the account of it would seem to be a fable, were it not related by those that saw it, and were not the events that followed it of so considerable a nature as to deserve such signals; for, before sun-setting, chariots and troops of soldiers in their armour were seen running about among the clouds, and surrounding of cities. Moreover, at that feast which we call Pentecost, as the priests were going by night into the inner [court of the] temple, as their custom was, to perform their sacred ministrations, they said that, in the first place, they felt a quaking, and heard a great noise, and after that they heard a sound as of a great multitude, saying, "Let us remove hence" (Jewish Wars, VI-V-3).

Tacitus
"13. Prodigies had occurred, but their expiation by the offering of victims or solemn vows is held to be unlawful by a nation which is the slave of superstition and the enemy of true beliefs. In the sky appeared a vision of armies in conflict, of glittering armour. A sudden lightning flash from the clouds lit up the Temple. The doors of the holy place abruptly opened, a superhuman voice was heard to declare that the gods were leaving it, and in the same instant came the rushing tumult of their departure. Few people placed a sinister interpretation upon this. The majority were convinced that the ancient scriptures of their priests alluded to the present as the very time when the Orient would triumph and from Judaea would go forth men destined to rule the world." (Histories, Book 5, v. 13).

Eusebius of Caesarea
"For before the setting of the sun chariots and armed troops were seen throughout the whole region in mid-air, wheeling through the clouds and encircling the cities" (Eusebius' Ecclesiastical History, Book 3, Ch. 8).