All ya need is love... All ya need is love.

[thessalonian]

Originally posted by GraceSaves:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Singer:
That's the failure of Catholicism. (Putting Wayyyyy too much emphasis on Peter.
Your "Good News" would seem to be inferior without mentioning Peter. There is
a better figure that stands out ahead of a mere man who Christ referred to as
"satan"; a man who lied and denied even knowing the son of God; a man who
made a fool of himself in public for all of history; who forsook his savior to save
his own hide and went down in history as someone unworthy to base a whole
denomination on.

This is hilarious. So, have you pulled 1 and 2 Peter out of your Bible? How about Acts of the Apostles? I mean, if Peter was such a nasty, distrustful guy, why do you trust that the letters he wrote and the books that speak of him are infallible? I'm waiting for you to make sense.

God bless,

Grant </font>[/QUOTE]I am amazed at what lengths they will go to trash the very Bible they profess to hold dear. Nothing is sacred as long as Catholic doctrines are to be trashed. Seems to me that they don't even believe in forgiveness when 2000 years later they trash Peter for something that Jesus quite apparently forgave him for. Incredible pride!

 

[WPutnam]

Singer replied:

Hang on Paxman.....I ain't answered all of your lengthy post yet .

I'm answering in segments for your reading enjoyment.!!!

Take all the time you need, Singer.

Don't think that massive posting will deter me....take some time and
reinforce your stance with TryingtoUnderstand.

All I want you to do is reply to some of my pointed questions, else I am wasting my time.

You need a break....I detect a weakness occuring.

Don't worry, as I am "bright-eyed and bushy-tailed" and raring to go!

p.s. Had a tabletalk discussion with a faultering Catholic this noon.
He said they (young people in the RCC) were encouraged not to read
the bible back in the 40s. Said maybe it was because they feared more
Martin Luthers ...maybe. (You know...someone who would read the bible
and find out the REAL Truth)

I know of no Catholic, convert or "cradle Catholic" who was encouraged not the read the bible! But I do know that we Catholics are counciled to read the bible in the light of Church teachings.

Or do you find that unreasonable, Singer?

Keep Smiling Paxman

God bless,

PAX

Bill+†+


Regina Angelorum, ora pro nobis!

 

[WPutnam]

Yelsew commented:

SINGER is RIGHT, The observable Catholic church is not the Church that Jesus builded.

The pray tell, which was the church Christ built that existed from Pentecost to, shall we say, the so called "Protestant Reformation"?

Name one other then the ONE HOLY CATHOLIC AND APOSTOLIC CHURCH.

(There was a schism in about the 9th century, when many Eastern Rite communities, called the "Orthodox," broke away. They are the only community "not in union with Rome" that have valid Holy Orders and all Seven Sacraments. Their separation is more political then theological, and the angels in heaven will sing when that wonderful community returns to full communion with Rome!)

Other them the Orthodox community, name one, Yelsew.

Be aware that I am "leading you down the garden path," a trap if you will, that if you reply in the manner that I am lurking on, I will just jump all over you!

(But I am still a nice guy!)

God bless,

PAX

Bill+†+


Christus Vincit! Christus Regnat! Christus Imperat!

 

[WPutnam]

Singer replied, where I last said:

Singer, Jesus is God, not Peter! It is Jesus' church, not Peters! But Jesus does put Peter in
charge of it! It is that simple!

Peter is dead and he left no successors. Papal leadership was not a creation of Jesus.

Just for you, Singer:


THE SUCCESSION OF POPES


St. Peter (?- 67) THE APOSTLE
St. Linus (67-76)
St. Anacletus (76-88)
St. Clement (88-97)
St. Evaristus (97-105)
St. Alexander I (105-115)
St. Sixtus I (115-125)
St. Telesphorus (125-136)
St. Hyginus (136-140)
St. Pius I (140-155)
St. Anicetus (155-166)
St. Soter (166-175)
St. Eleutherius (175-189)
St. Victor I (189-199)
St. Zephyrinus (199-217)
St. Callistus (217-222)
St. Urban (222-230)
St. Pontain (230-235)
St. Anterus (235-236)
St. Fabian (236-250)
St. Cornelius (251-253)
St. Lucius I (253-254)
St. Stephen I (254-257)
St. Sixtus II (257-258)
St. Dionysius (259-268)
St. Felix (269-274)
St. Eutychian (275-283)
St. Caius (283-296)
St. Marcellinus (296-304)
St. Marcellus I (308-309)
St. Eusebius (309?-310?)
St. Meltiades (311-314)
St. Sylvester I (314-335)
St. Marcus (336-336)
St. Julius I (337-352)
Liberius (352-366)
St. Damasus I (366-384)
St. Siricius (384-399)
St. Anastasius I (399-401)
St. Innocent I (401-417)
St. Zozimus (417-418)
St. Boniface I (418-422)
St. Celestine I (422-432)
St. Sixtus III (432-440)
St. Leo I (440-461)
St. Hilary (461_468)
St. Simplocius (468-483)
St. Felix III (II)(483-492)
St. Gelasius I (492-496)
St. Anastasius II (496-498)
St. Symmachus (498-514)
St. Hormisdas (514-523)
St. John I (523-526)
St. Felix IV (III)(526-530)
Boniface II (530-532)
John II (533-535)
St. Agapitus I (535-536)
St. Silverius (536-537)
Vigilius (537-555)
Pelagius (556-561)
John III (561-574)
Benedict I (575-579)
Pelagius II (579-590)
St. Gregory (590-604)
Sabinianus (604-606)
Boniface III (607-607)
St. Boniface IV (608-615)
St. Deusdedit(Adeodatus I) (615-618)
Boniface V (619-625)
Honorius I (625-638)
Severinus (640-640)
John IV (640-642)
Theodore I (642-649)
St. Martin I (649-655)
St. Eugene I (654-657)
St. Vitalian (657-672)
Adeodatus II (672-676
Donus (676-768)
St. Agatho (678-681)
St. Leo II (682-683)
St. Benedict II (684-685)
John V (685-686)
Conon (686-687)
St. Sergius I (687-701)
John VI (701-705)
John II (705-707)
Sisinnius (708-708)
Constantine (708-715)
St. Gregory II (715-731)
St. Gregory III (731-741)
St. Zachary (741-752)
St. Stephen II (752-752)
Stephen II (III)(752-757)
St. Paul I (757-767)
Stephen III(IV)(768-772)
Adrian I (772-795)
St. Leo III (795-816)
Stephen IV(V)(816-817)
St. Paschal I (817-824)
Eugene II (824-827)
Valentine (827-827)
Gregory IV (827-844)
Sergius II (844-847)
St. Leo IV (847-855)
Benedict III (855-858)
St. Nicholas I (858-867)
Adrian II (867-872)
John VIII (872-882)
Marinus I (882-884)
St. Adrian III (884-885)
Stephen V(VI)(885_891)
Formosus (891-896)
Boniface VI (896-896)
Stephen VI(VII)(896-897)
Romanus (897-897)
Theodore II (897-897)
John IX (898-900)
Benedict IV (900-903)
Leo V (903-903)
Sergius III (904-911)
Anastasius III (911-913)
Landus (913-914)
John X (914-928)
Leo VI (928-928)
Stephen VII(VIII)(928-931)
John XI (931-935)
Leo VII (936-939)
Stephen VIII(IX)(939-942)
Marinus II (942-946)
Agapitus II (946-955)
John XII (955-964)
Leo VIII (963-965)
Benedict V (964-966)
John XIII (965-972)
Benedict VI (973-974)
Benedict VII (974-983)
John XIV (983-984)
John XV (985-996)
Gregory V (996-999)
Sylvester II (999-1003)
John XVII (1003-1003)
John XVIII (1004-1009)
Sergois IV (1009-1012)
Benedict VIII (1012-1024)
John XIX (1024-1032)
Benedict IX (1032-1044)
Sylvester III (1045-1045)
Benedict IX (1045-1045)
Gregory (1045-1046)
Clement II (1046-1047)
Benedict IX (1047-1048)
Damasus II (1048-1048)
St. Leo IX (1049-1054)
Victor II (1055-1057)
Stephen IX(X)(1057-1058)
Nicholas II (1059-1061)
Alexander II (1061-1073)
St. Gregory VII (1073-1085)
Bl. Victor III (1086-1087)
Bl. Urban II (1088-1099)
Paschal II (1099-1118)
Gelasius II (1118-1119)
Callistus II (1119-1124)
Honorius II (1124-1130)
Innocent II (1130-1143)
Celestine II (1143-1144)
Lucius II (1144-1145)
Bl. Eugene III (1145-1153)
Anastasius IV (1153-1154)
Adrian IV (1154-1159)
Alexander III (1159-1181)
Lucius III (1181-1185)
Urban III (1185-1187)
Gregory VIII (1187-1187)
Clement III (1187-1191)
Celestine III (1191-1198)
Innocent III (1198-1216)
Honorius III (1216-1227)
Gregory IX (1227-1241)
Celestine IV (1241-1241)
Innocent IV (1243-1254)
Alexander IV (1254-1261)
Urban IV (1261-1264)
Clement IV (1265-1268)
Bl. Gregory X (1271-1276)
Bl. Innocent V (1276-1276)
Adrian V (1276-1276)
John XXI (1276-1277)
Nicholas III (1277-1280)
Martin IV (1281-1285)
Honorius IV (1285-1287)
Nicholas IV (1288-1292)
St. Celestine V (1294-1294)
Boniface VIII (1294-1303)
Bl. Benedict XI (1303-1304)
Clement V (1305-1314)
John XXII (1316-1334)
Benedict XII (1334-1342)
Clement VI (1342-1352)
Innocent VI (1352-1362)
Bl. Urban V (1392-1370)
Gregory XI (1370-1378)
Urban VI (1378-1389)
Boniface IX (1389-1404)
Innocent VII (1404-1406)
Gregory XII (1406-1415)
Martin V (1417-1431)
Eugene IV (1431-1447)
Nicholas V (1447-1455)
Callestus III (1455-1458)
Pius II (1458-1464)
Paul II (1464-1471)
Sixtus IV (1471-1484)
Innocent VIII (1484-1492)
Alexander VI (1492-1503)
Pius III (1503-1503)
Julius II (1503-1513)
Leo X (1513-1521)
Adrian VI (1522-1523)
Clement VII (1523-1534)
Paul III (1534-1549)
Julius III (1550-1555)
Marcellus II (1555-1555)
Paul IV (1555-1559)
Pius IV (1559-1565)
St. Pius V (1566-1572)
Gregory XIII (1572-1585)
Sixtus V (1585-1590)
Urban VII (1590-1590)
Gregory XIV (1590-1591)
Innocent IX (1591-1591)
Clement VIII (1592-1605)
Leo XI (1605-1605)
Paul V (1605-1621)
Gregory XV (1621-1623)
Urban VIII (1623-1644)
Innocent X (1644-1655)
Alexander VII (1655-1667)
Clement IX (1667-1669)
Clement X (1670-1676)
Bl. Innocent XI (1676-1689)
Alexander VIII (1689-1691)
Innocent XII (1691-1700)
Clement XI (1700-1721)
Innocent XIII (1721-1724)
Benedict XIII (1724-1730)
Clement XII (1730-1740)
Benedict XIV (1740-1758)
Clement XIII (1758-1769)
Clement XIV (1769-1774)
Pius VI (1775-1799)
Pius VII (1800-1823)
Leo XII (1823-1829)
Pius VIII (1829-1830)
Gregory XVI (1831-1846)
Pius IX (1846-1878)
Leo XIII (1878-1903)
St. Pius X (1903-1914)
Benedict XV (1914-1922)
Pius XI (1922-1939)
Pius XII (1939-1958)
John XXIII (1958-1963)
Paul VI (1963-1978)
John Paul I (1978-1978)
John Paul II (1978-present)

Jesus Christ says to Peter.........

I will entrust to you the keys of the kingdom of heaven.
Whatever you declare bound on earth shall be bound in heaven;
whatsoever you declare loosed on earth, shall be loosed in
heaven] Matthew, chapter 16 verse 19

No matter what Jesus does with Simon now called Peter, Jesus is always in charge!
Nothing changes in that regard as Jesus sits on His throne in heaven!

Good man, WP. That's what I've been trying to tell you. (Peter doesn't matter).

&lt;SIGH!&gt; Peter does indeed, matter, if indeed, Jesus does what we see Him doing in Matthew 16:18-19!

Good heavens, Singer! I still think you need to find those scissors and start cutting! That way, you can have a bible "your way!"

No man cometh to the Father but by Who, Paxman? Jesus or Peter ?
Show me where it says "No man cometh to the Father but by Me via Peter".

Singer, Jesus is the man! He died on the cross for all of us! He is the Son of God, the Messiah!

That does not mean that Peter drops to zero in importance, because if you do, then you might as well discount all the rest of the apostles, especially those who participated in the writings of the New Testament, which, if you do what you do in that case, throw out the New Testament as it is no longer important as well!

And here we go with a question I sure would like Singer to step up to the plate and answer forthrightly:

But you avoid my question: Were their other Christian denominations that you can identify
in history that existed from Pentecost to about 1500 years later? Give it a shot, Singer,
and let's see you do it....

Good point..Jesus didn't give names to any of them did he?

Good point what, Singer? Go to any source you may choose to use and name those competing Christian communities that stood apart from the original church as Christ founded. Place then alongside time line of the only church you can find that can trace her history back to Christ Himself - The Catholic Church.

I thought you were going to do it, but you disappoint me, Singer. you avoided answering my question!

Tell me what denomination those present at Pentecost were.

He also seeks out sheep that is not of His fold that He would add them to His own fold
(can you find that in scripture?)
His fold could not have been Catholicism because He never named those who believed.

What are their names, Singer? Name them! Show me the historical account of those Christian communities that existed parallel to Catholicism for the first 15 hundred years.

I "wrongfully" presume? How am I wrong, Singer? Do some legwork and prove me wrong if
you can.

Prove me wrong Paxman... without referring to Catholic doctrine. Bible only.
I'll even give you the advantage of using the adjective "catholic" in your efforts.

No you don't Singer! I will do nothing of the kind until you are forthright in replying to my many questions in this thread alone!

Hey, I'm going to go pick mushrooms along the river in the sunshine with the birds
singing and the quietness of His Spirit. Praise the Lord for the beauty of the earth.
Thank you Jesus !!

Hummmmmmmmm, are you picking the right mushrooms, Singer?

God bless,

PAX

Bill+†+


Pillar and Foundation of Truth, the Church. (1 Tim 3:15)

 

[Yelsew]

Originally posted by thessalonian:
Yelsew,

Ah, a sinless Church now wouldn't that be nice. I take it yours is? You focus on the sins and ignore the volumous amount of good the Church does in the world. Isn't that kind of like satan does. Dig at a mans sins. Kick him while he is down so to speak. If all Catholics were as you say then you would have a point but the vast majority sincerely work toward the good. Your an outsider looking in through the window and making statements about what goes on inside without ever really trying to find out firsthand. Yes there are sinners. We are told in scripture "there will be WOLVES among you". You say above that if there are wolves in the Church it is not the true Church. Scripture contradicts you. I know this is hard to accept but it is true. We see in in 1 Cor 5, Rev 2,3, Titus 2, 3, Jude 1, 1 Cor 11 and many other places. In the Old Testament Hophni and Phineas profaned the tent of the meeting in 2 Kings by having sex with young women in the doorway of the tent of the meeting. Did this prove Judaism false. David lusted after a man's wife and set him up to be killed because of it. Judaism was false I guess by your standards. Jewish leaders sacrificed children. Well, throw out Jewish scripture, it is evil and false apparently by your standards (which are not God's standards apparently "your ways are not my ways"). And of course there are many more OT scandals. Jesus was apparently by your standards a fraud because one of his 12 betrayed him and all but one of his disciples abandoned him at the cross. Scandal. Yelsew, your arguements don't hold. Scandal means nothing other than that mankind is sinful even in the Church. All are in need of a savior.

Nice try though, blessings.

You missed my point completely!

God does not build his eternal structures on temporal foundations!

God does not build that which is Holy on foundation of sinful beings or principles. Peter was sinful, as we all are! Therefore Peter is not the rock upon which Jesus built His church! Furthermore, Peter never set foot in ROME! Paul did go to Rome, so why not call the Roman church the Basilica of St. Paul?

Scriptures tell us that Jesus was sinless, innocent of sin. Therefore it is Jesus, the Son of God (the who), the Christ (the what) that is the foundation of the church upon which he builded using believer's faith in him as the building material.

Therefore, The Catholic Church with its pope and cardinals and bishops is not the true church!

Does the Catholic Church, pope and all, do good in the world? Yes! So does the Mormon Church and so does every other organized religious order. Doing good is the doing of works, Works do not produce salvation! Faith in God alone results in salvation, there is no other way to have salvation. Neither the Catholic Church, nor the pope, nor the Cardinals, nor the bishops, nor any priest can bring you salvation! They can bring you the Gospel, and if you believe the gospel message, your belief can bring you salvation. That is scriptural!

I hold that the true church is the invisible church of the collective believing spirits of man regardless of their organizational affiliations, their choices of where and with whom to worship.

[ May 14, 2003, 04:50 PM: Message edited by: Yelsew ]

 

[WPutnam]

Yelsew said to Thessalonian:

I hold that the true church is the invisible church of the collective believing spirits of man irregardless of their organizational affiliations, their choices of where and with whom to worship.

Please document their existence in the first 1500 years of church history, Yelsew. All of the ancient writings I see and read, all the fescoes I see on the walls of ancient catacombs, and similar artifacts, all point to one Christian community who startlingly held the very same doctrines and beliefs that the (gasp!) Catholic Church holds today!

Go figure................

God Bless,

PAX

Bill+†+


Pillar and Foundation of Truth, the Church. (1 Tim 3:15)

 

[thessalonian]

"I hold that the true church is the invisible church of the collective believing spirits of man regardless of their organizational affiliations, their choices of where and with whom to worship. "

Yes, I know and their beliefs can conflict and it really doesn't matter. Anther one man Church going here. I know it suits human pride well to believe such nonsense. Your your own authority. Don't have ta listen to nobody. Kind of reminds me of my kids when I tell them to do something in my house.

God bless you Yelsew.

 

[Yelsew]

It seems the whole catholic church does not hold to those tenets very well!

The true catholic church does not have a pope! it has Jesus Christ who is the head of the church. No mere man is able to replace Jesus who is at the Father's right hand. Otherwise there is no need for the Holy Spirit! The Holy Spirit works beyond the limited confines of The Catholic Church.

Is it OK that I do not accept your Catholic Dogma?
Will that keep me out of Heaven?
Can you or your beloved organization condemn me to hell?
What can you do to remove me from my secure place in the arms of Jesus?

The answers: YES! NO! NO! NOTHING! So who needs you, or your organization?

 

[WPutnam]

Yelsaw, wondering if you read any of my posts, said:

The true catholic church does not have a pope!

For your benefit, I repeat the following list for your reading enjoyment:


THE SUCCESSION OF POPES


St. Peter (?- 67) THE APOSTLE
St. Linus (67-76)
St. Anacletus (76-88)
St. Clement (88-97)
St. Evaristus (97-105)
St. Alexander I (105-115)
St. Sixtus I (115-125)
St. Telesphorus (125-136)
St. Hyginus (136-140)
St. Pius I (140-155)
St. Anicetus (155-166)
St. Soter (166-175)
St. Eleutherius (175-189)
St. Victor I (189-199)
St. Zephyrinus (199-217)
St. Callistus (217-222)
St. Urban (222-230)
St. Pontain (230-235)
St. Anterus (235-236)
St. Fabian (236-250)
St. Cornelius (251-253)
St. Lucius I (253-254)
St. Stephen I (254-257)
St. Sixtus II (257-258)
St. Dionysius (259-268)
St. Felix (269-274)
St. Eutychian (275-283)
St. Caius (283-296)
St. Marcellinus (296-304)
St. Marcellus I (308-309)
St. Eusebius (309?-310?)
St. Meltiades (311-314)
St. Sylvester I (314-335)
St. Marcus (336-336)
St. Julius I (337-352)
Liberius (352-366)
St. Damasus I (366-384)
St. Siricius (384-399)
St. Anastasius I (399-401)
St. Innocent I (401-417)
St. Zozimus (417-418)
St. Boniface I (418-422)
St. Celestine I (422-432)
St. Sixtus III (432-440)
St. Leo I (440-461)
St. Hilary (461_468)
St. Simplocius (468-483)
St. Felix III (II)(483-492)
St. Gelasius I (492-496)
St. Anastasius II (496-498)
St. Symmachus (498-514)
St. Hormisdas (514-523)
St. John I (523-526)
St. Felix IV (III)(526-530)
Boniface II (530-532)
John II (533-535)
St. Agapitus I (535-536)
St. Silverius (536-537)
Vigilius (537-555)
Pelagius (556-561)
John III (561-574)
Benedict I (575-579)
Pelagius II (579-590)
St. Gregory (590-604)
Sabinianus (604-606)
Boniface III (607-607)
St. Boniface IV (608-615)
St. Deusdedit(Adeodatus I) (615-618)
Boniface V (619-625)
Honorius I (625-638)
Severinus (640-640)
John IV (640-642)
Theodore I (642-649)
St. Martin I (649-655)
St. Eugene I (654-657)
St. Vitalian (657-672)
Adeodatus II (672-676
Donus (676-768)
St. Agatho (678-681)
St. Leo II (682-683)
St. Benedict II (684-685)
John V (685-686)
Conon (686-687)
St. Sergius I (687-701)
John VI (701-705)
John II (705-707)
Sisinnius (708-708)
Constantine (708-715)
St. Gregory II (715-731)
St. Gregory III (731-741)
St. Zachary (741-752)
St. Stephen II (752-752)
Stephen II (III)(752-757)
St. Paul I (757-767)
Stephen III(IV)(768-772)
Adrian I (772-795)
St. Leo III (795-816)
Stephen IV(V)(816-817)
St. Paschal I (817-824)
Eugene II (824-827)
Valentine (827-827)
Gregory IV (827-844)
Sergius II (844-847)
St. Leo IV (847-855)
Benedict III (855-858)
St. Nicholas I (858-867)
Adrian II (867-872)
John VIII (872-882)
Marinus I (882-884)
St. Adrian III (884-885)
Stephen V(VI)(885_891)
Formosus (891-896)
Boniface VI (896-896)
Stephen VI(VII)(896-897)
Romanus (897-897)
Theodore II (897-897)
John IX (898-900)
Benedict IV (900-903)
Leo V (903-903)
Sergius III (904-911)
Anastasius III (911-913)
Landus (913-914)
John X (914-928)
Leo VI (928-928)
Stephen VII(VIII)(928-931)
John XI (931-935)
Leo VII (936-939)
Stephen VIII(IX)(939-942)
Marinus II (942-946)
Agapitus II (946-955)
John XII (955-964)
Leo VIII (963-965)
Benedict V (964-966)
John XIII (965-972)
Benedict VI (973-974)
Benedict VII (974-983)
John XIV (983-984)
John XV (985-996)
Gregory V (996-999)
Sylvester II (999-1003)
John XVII (1003-1003)
John XVIII (1004-1009)
Sergois IV (1009-1012)
Benedict VIII (1012-1024)
John XIX (1024-1032)
Benedict IX (1032-1044)
Sylvester III (1045-1045)
Benedict IX (1045-1045)
Gregory (1045-1046)
Clement II (1046-1047)
Benedict IX (1047-1048)
Damasus II (1048-1048)
St. Leo IX (1049-1054)
Victor II (1055-1057)
Stephen IX(X)(1057-1058)
Nicholas II (1059-1061)
Alexander II (1061-1073)
St. Gregory VII (1073-1085)
Bl. Victor III (1086-1087)
Bl. Urban II (1088-1099)
Paschal II (1099-1118)
Gelasius II (1118-1119)
Callistus II (1119-1124)
Honorius II (1124-1130)
Innocent II (1130-1143)
Celestine II (1143-1144)
Lucius II (1144-1145)
Bl. Eugene III (1145-1153)
Anastasius IV (1153-1154)
Adrian IV (1154-1159)
Alexander III (1159-1181)
Lucius III (1181-1185)
Urban III (1185-1187)
Gregory VIII (1187-1187)
Clement III (1187-1191)
Celestine III (1191-1198)
Innocent III (1198-1216)
Honorius III (1216-1227)
Gregory IX (1227-1241)
Celestine IV (1241-1241)
Innocent IV (1243-1254)
Alexander IV (1254-1261)
Urban IV (1261-1264)
Clement IV (1265-1268)
Bl. Gregory X (1271-1276)
Bl. Innocent V (1276-1276)
Adrian V (1276-1276)
John XXI (1276-1277)
Nicholas III (1277-1280)
Martin IV (1281-1285)
Honorius IV (1285-1287)
Nicholas IV (1288-1292)
St. Celestine V (1294-1294)
Boniface VIII (1294-1303)
Bl. Benedict XI (1303-1304)
Clement V (1305-1314)
John XXII (1316-1334)
Benedict XII (1334-1342)
Clement VI (1342-1352)
Innocent VI (1352-1362)
Bl. Urban V (1392-1370)
Gregory XI (1370-1378)
Urban VI (1378-1389)
Boniface IX (1389-1404)
Innocent VII (1404-1406)
Gregory XII (1406-1415)
Martin V (1417-1431)
Eugene IV (1431-1447)
Nicholas V (1447-1455)
Callestus III (1455-1458)
Pius II (1458-1464)
Paul II (1464-1471)
Sixtus IV (1471-1484)
Innocent VIII (1484-1492)
Alexander VI (1492-1503)
Pius III (1503-1503)
Julius II (1503-1513)
Leo X (1513-1521)
Adrian VI (1522-1523)
Clement VII (1523-1534)
Paul III (1534-1549)
Julius III (1550-1555)
Marcellus II (1555-1555)
Paul IV (1555-1559)
Pius IV (1559-1565)
St. Pius V (1566-1572)
Gregory XIII (1572-1585)
Sixtus V (1585-1590)
Urban VII (1590-1590)
Gregory XIV (1590-1591)
Innocent IX (1591-1591)
Clement VIII (1592-1605)
Leo XI (1605-1605)
Paul V (1605-1621)
Gregory XV (1621-1623)
Urban VIII (1623-1644)
Innocent X (1644-1655)
Alexander VII (1655-1667)
Clement IX (1667-1669)
Clement X (1670-1676)
Bl. Innocent XI (1676-1689)
Alexander VIII (1689-1691)
Innocent XII (1691-1700)
Clement XI (1700-1721)
Innocent XIII (1721-1724)
Benedict XIII (1724-1730)
Clement XII (1730-1740)
Benedict XIV (1740-1758)
Clement XIII (1758-1769)
Clement XIV (1769-1774)
Pius VI (1775-1799)
Pius VII (1800-1823)
Leo XII (1823-1829)
Pius VIII (1829-1830)
Gregory XVI (1831-1846)
Pius IX (1846-1878)
Leo XIII (1878-1903)
St. Pius X (1903-1914)
Benedict XV (1914-1922)
Pius XI (1922-1939)
Pius XII (1939-1958)
John XXIII (1958-1963)
Paul VI (1963-1978)
John Paul I (1978-1978)
John Paul II (1978-present)

Jesus Christ says to Peter.........
I will entrust to you the keys of the kingdom of heaven.
Whatever you declare bound on earth shall be bound in heaven;
whatsoever you declare loosed on earth, shall be loosed in
heaven. Matthew, chapter 16 verse 19


Case closed..................

God bless,

PAX

Bill+†+


Pillar and Foundation of Truth, the Church. (1 Tim 3:15)

 

[Yelsew]

Originally posted by thessalonian:
"I hold that the true church is the invisible church of the collective believing spirits of man regardless of their organizational affiliations, their choices of where and with whom to worship. "

Yes, I know and their beliefs can conflict and it really doesn't matter. Anther one man Church going here. I know it suits human pride well to believe such nonsense. Your your own authority. Don't have ta listen to nobody. Kind of reminds me of my kids when I tell them to do something in my house.

God bless you Yelsew.

Don't be ignorant! I am not a one man church, there is no such thing. The word church implies collective! The only Pride that I have is in My LORD AND SAVIOR, JESUS, THE SON OF GOD, THE CHRIST!

I am simply telling you in your ignorance that there is more to Jesus' Church than the Catholic church even comprehends! The Catholic Church is nothing more than a continuation of the OT priesthood! I used to be a Catholic, made it through the "religious training" phase only to be disappointed by the lack of fulfillment of the promises of scripture. It was only when I put my trust in Jesus alone that I found the fulfillment that the scriptures promise, and the spiritual infilling and freedom in my faith. The truth has set me free in spirit and from the Catholic church.

 

[thessalonian]

Yelsew,

The Catholic Church in its Catechism says that Jesus Christ is the head of the Church. Wonder of wonders. It does not claim that Peter replaces Jesus as you claim. False dichotomy.
God will be your judge as to whether you rejected essentials of revealed truth or not. The Holy Spirit definitely does work outside of the Church. For if not noone would ever come to her for we cannot do it on our own. Cornelius was prepared for the truth long before Peter brought it to him. Speaking of ignorance, don't speak what you do not know as if you know Catholicism better than I.

Peace to you

 

[Yelsew]

Every organization can list their leaders past and present, SO WHAT? Every leader of the Roman empire is known, Every leader of every orgainization can be listed, even the Branch Dividians leadership is known. The Baptists can list every one of their leaders, The Methodists, the Presbyterian, the Anglicans too!

ODDLY, I don't see where the graves of any of those you listed are empty.

 

[Singer]

(Grant)This is hilarious. So, have you pulled 1 and 2 Peter out of your Bible?
How about Acts of the Apostles? I mean, if Peter was such a nasty,
distrustful guy, why do you trust that the letters he wrote and the books
that speak of him are infallible? I'm waiting for you to make sense.

(Paxman) Good heavens, Singer! I still think you need to find those scissors
and start cutting! That way, you can have a bible "your way!"

Grant and Paxman,

Let's do just that. Let's suppose we were to cut from our bible until we had
one statement left. What would your choice be..? Would you still cling to
Matthew 16:18 or would you keep John 3:16 ...?

________________________________________________________

I know of no Catholic, convert or "cradle Catholic" who was encouraged
not the read the bible! But I do know that we Catholics are counciled to
read the bible in the light of Church teachings.

Paxman, you've led a sheltered life then; or you closed your ears on purpose.
I am not even in the Catholic circle and I've heard that feature all my life
from various practicing and ex-Catholics. Direct...one on
one Paxman. Heard it with my own ears. Believest thou this ?

 

[Singer]

Well aint this a kicker.....I can't find anything about a St. Peter in the
bible. Who was that again that you're basing the founding of your church on,
Paxman......?

Your reference; Paxman.....
St. Peter (?- 67) THE APOSTLE

Evidently there was no such a person mentioned in the bible. There was a
Peter who was an apostle but Jesus never said he was a saint....

.......Oh I remember now. (The bible is not a complete and worthy reference).
Someone just adds to it to fit their purposes. Job security ?

 

[WPutnam]

Singer responded with:

(Grant)This is hilarious. So, have you pulled 1 and 2 Peter out of your Bible?
How about Acts of the Apostles? I mean, if Peter was such a nasty,
distrustful guy, why do you trust that the letters he wrote and the books
that speak of him are infallible? I'm waiting for you to make sense.

(Paxman)Good heavens, Singer! I still think you need to find those scissors
and start cutting! That way, you can have a bible "your way!"

And you reply with:

Grant and Paxman,

Let's do just that. Let's suppose we were to cut from our bible until we had
one statement left. What would your choice be..? Would you still cling to
Matthew 16:18 or would you keep John 3:16 ...?

That's like asking me the question, "When was the last time you beat your Momma?" I would never cut a thing from scripture. And of course, I certainly would retain Matthew 16:18-19, and that includes the deuterocanonicals.

That reminds me:

Singer by whose authority did the deuterocanonicals (Called "apocyrapha" by Protestants) get cut out of the bible, when it was always included in the bible, as documented by the early church councils that convened in the 3rd century?

How do you know that the books that are included in your bible are the authentic ones that were divinely inspired by God? And further, by whose authoriy was the books you see in your New Testament in the first place? Do you possibly have a clue?

I previously said:

I know of no Catholic, convert or "cradle Catholic" who was encouraged
not the read the bible! But I do know that we Catholics are counciled to
read the bible in the light of Church teachings.

Paxman, you've led a sheltered life then; or you closed your ears on purpose.
I am not even in the Catholic circle and I've heard that feature all my life
from various practicing and ex-Catholics. Direct...one on
one Paxman. Heard it with my own ears. Believest thou this ?

Singer, let me tell you again if you have not already noticed: I am a convert to the Catholic Church! I am an ex-Fundamentalist/Evangelical! I became a Catholic with my eyes wide open!

And being associated with good practicing Catholics all of my life, I have never heard of such a thing, except from the mouths (or the keyboard fingers) of ex-Catholics who have no idea what it is their former Church teaches in the first place!

God bless,

PAX

Bill+†+


Glory to God on high,
and on earth peace
to men of good will.
We praise you.
We bless you,
We adore you,
We glorify you,
We give you thanks
for your great glory;
Oh Lord God, Heavenly King,
God the Father Almighty!
Lord Jesus Christ, the only-begotten
Son;
Lord God, Lamb of God, Son of
The Father;
Who takes away the sins of the world,
have mercy on us:
Who takes away the sins of the world.
receive our prayer;
Who sits at the right hand of the
Father, have mercy on us
For you alone are holy,
you alone are the Lord,
you alone, O Jesus Christ,
are most high,
Together with the Holy Spirit, in the
glory of God the Father.
Amen.

 

[Yelsew]

Wputnam said

Yelsaw, wondering if you read any of my posts, said:

The true catholic church does not have a pope!

For your benefit, I repeat the following list for your reading enjoyment:


THE SUCCESSION OF POPES ...

I did say the "true catholic church", meaning the universal church which is comprised of the spirits of every believer in Jesus the Christ. Another name for the true catholic church is "the Bride of Christ". The church headquartered in Rome is a part of "the BODY of Christ", and some of the members of that Catholic Church are also members of the Bride of Christ, as a some of the members of every Christian church are members of the Bride of Christ.

WPutnam, it is been said, "you can fool most of the people some of the time, and some of the people most of the time, but you can't fool all of the people all of the time". Well sir, You can't fool me at any time! You may know your religion's dogma, but I know the one who founded the Christian faith, therefore I do not rely on "religion", but rather the living savior!

 

[WPutnam]

Originally posted by Singer:
Well aint this a kicker.....I can't find anything about a St. Peter in the
bible. Who was that again that you're basing the founding of your church on,
Paxman......?

Your reference; Paxman.....
St. Peter (?- 67) THE APOSTLE

Evidently there was no such a person mentioned in the bible. There was a
Peter who was an apostle but Jesus never said he was a saint....

You don't consider Peter a saint?

Now, that is a "kicker" if I ever heard one!

Singer, Christ created a church with awesome authority, that has the church excercising her authority and declaring Peter a saint!

But actually, in those early days, the church really did not do this, but by acclimation by all of the faithful.

.......Oh I remember now. (The bible is not a complete and worthy reference).
Someone just adds to it to fit their purposes. Job security ?

Who told you that, Singer? If the bible were not the "complete and worthy reference" you believe it is worthy of, (and me too, by the way) then why did the very church you dispise husbanded scripture that you may carry same in you hot little hands?

I think you are confusing the notion that the Catholic Church does not consider scripture as the ONLY reference for faith, doctrine and moral teaching, but also includes her own authority given to her orally by Christ Himself - Called the Sacred Tradition of the Church.

Singer, the Catholic does not believe in Sola Scriptura.

God bless,

PAX

Bill+†+


Blest be God.
Blest be his holy name.
Blest be Jesus Christ, true God and true man.
Blest be the name of Jesus.
Blest be his most sacred heart.
Blest be his most precious blood.
Blest be Jesus in the most holy sacrament of the altar.
Blest be the Holy Spirit, the Consoler.
Blest be the great Mother of God, Mary most holy.
Blest be her holy and immaculate conception.
Blest be her glorious assumption.
Blest be the name of Mary, virgin and mother.
Blest be Saint Joseph, her most chaste spouse.
Blest be God in his angels and in his saints.

- The Divine Praises -

 

[WPutnam]

Yelsew replied, where I last said:

Yelsaw, wondering if you read any of my posts, said:

The true catholic church does not have a pope!

For your benefit, I repeat the following list for your reading enjoyment:


THE SUCCESSION OF POPES ...

And you replied:

I did say the "true catholic church", meaning the universal church which is comprised of the spirits of every believer in Jesus the Christ.

I sure would like to see some evidence of this "invisible" or "remnant" church that seems to exist out of Protestant/Fundamentalist/Evangelical imaginations, yet can provide no proof of such a "super-silent church."

Where was this "super-church" from between Pentecost until, shall we say, the so called Protestant Reformation?

I can find no evidence of it, save the very visible church, with very visible evidence of it's teaching and doctrines and recorded time and time again, but not nary a sign of some "phantom church" that exists only in your imaginations.

Another name for the true catholic church is "the Bride of Christ". The church headquartered in Rome is a part of "the BODY of Christ", and some of the members of that Catholic Church are also members of the Bride of Christ, as a some of the members of every Christian church are members of the Bride of Christ.

Oh, I recognise the teachings of the Catholic Church that says that all non-Catholic Christians are members of the Catholic Church albeit in a incomplete way. And interestingly, these non-Catholic Christians did not exist as a continuing sect from Pentecost in the time period I cite! Heresies came and gone, but that only proves that they are false churches, false doctrines and false teachings that soon died out.

WPutnam, it is been said, "you can fool most of the people some of the time, and some of the people most of the time, but you can't fool all of the people all of the time". Well sir, You can't fool me at any time! You may know your religion's dogma, but I know the one who founded the Christian faith, therefore I do not rely on "religion", but rather the living savior!

I am saddened that you think I am trying to fool you. I do the best I can to defend my faith, against accusations that are simply not true. The Catholic Church is the ONLY Church who can document her existence back to Pentecost and to Christ Himself. No other Christian faith system can make that claim! (The Orthodox not considered here for the moment...)

God bless,

PAX

Bill+†+


Pillar and Foundation of Truth, the Church. (1 Tim 3:15)

 

[Yelsew]

Why do you continue to exclude the Orthodox? Are you mad at them because they have the same evidence of continuance from Christ to today that you say the Roman Church has? You see there are many in the Orthodox who are members of the Bride of Christ too!

If you don't believe the Bride of Christ "invisible" church exists, then you do not have the whole truth!

 

[WPutnam]

Originally posted by Yelsew:
Why do you continue to exclude the Orthodox? Are you mad at them because they have the same evidence of continuance from Christ to today that you say the Roman Church has? You see there are many in the Orthodox who are members of the Bride of Christ too!

Whoa, wait a minute! You took me wrong!

I simply exclude the Orthodox to simplify my point! Seting them aside for the moment, my argument for the first 15 hundred years of church history has a single church - that is, one church - that does not see any fragmentation until the so called "Protestant Reformation."

Not mentioning the Orthodox simplifles what I am trying to say and nothing more.

I love the Orthodox Church very much! They are as close to us as they can be without actually being as "Catholic" as we are! They are the only Church outside of Catholicism that has valid Holy Orders. (I will explain what that is if you wish later...) They also have all of the Seven Sacraments as we believe in them.

What separates us is far more political, rather then theological. And if there is indeed a consolidation of Christianity, I believe it will be with the Orthodox returning to a complete union with the See of Rome!

If you don't believe the Bride of Christ "invisible" church exists, then you do not have the whole truth!

Prove they exist or have ever existed! That is all I am asking! search all of church history for a single sign of them, please!

For the first 1500 years, (Save for the Orthodox, who separated from us in about the 9th century) there was only one church!

You cannot find a scrap of this so called "invisible" church except in your own imagination!

God bless,

PAX

Rome has spoken, the case is closed.

Derived from Augustine's famous Sermon.