I would add a-millennialism, post millennium, and hyper-Darbyism (my term) to what is not acceptable.
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"Allegorical" and "Spiritual" Hermeneutics
- Thread starter John of Japan
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prophecy70
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"Behold, the lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world."
More accurately, God wants us to grow. The Spirit states explicitly there are many things hard to be uttered because of the immaturity of the believer. (And, interestingly enough that was stated about Paul's desire to elaborate on the allegorical significance of Melchizedek.)
Maturity isn't elitism. I can handle a 50 pound bag of dogfood much more easily than an 8-year-old can handle one. But a 50 pound bag of dogfood isn't on the shelf with the 8-year-old in mind, and many things in the Scriptures are not tailored for the immature, nor directed to the unbeliever. "He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches." In that sense I would agree that God wants us to "easily understand," but God doesn't want to speak in three-word sentences.
I would agree maturity is not prerequisite to translation, but it is for understanding.
Many people don't want to believe Scripture, history, & science go together in a "trinity' of knowledge about God and His works. in all this, we must remember Scripture shapes history and science, and is the governing authority of all knowledge.
I believe there's enough historical evidence to prove Biblical prophecy is LITERALLY fulfilled, As we've had lots of preterism discussions lately, let's look briefly at Daniel 9,11, & 12, as well as Jesus' Olivet Discourse. We see the literal fulfillment of parts of Daniel 9 in the coming & ministry of Jesus, & the fulfillment of much of Daniel 11-12 in the constant wars between the Ptolemies & Seleucids, with the Jews & Judea being used almost as a soccer ball between them.
Glad to see several historians aboard! They can verify the fact that the Ptolemaic rule of Egypt & its surroundings is one of the best-documented periods in the existence of ancient Egypt, & can verify the wars between they & the Seleucids literally followed Scripture precisely.
Same with the Olivet Discourse. We see that Jerusalem and the temple were literally destroyed exactly as Jesus prophesied, with not one stone of the temple left upon another. We also see there's war, rumor of war, persecution of Christians in many places, Jerusalem trampled underfoot by gentiles, etc. etc.
Given all these LITERAL fulfillments of Biblical prophecy, there's simply NO VALID REASON to not believe the rest won't be fulfilled just-as-literally and precisely!
And another thing's certain - the prophesied eschatological events have simply NOT YET OCCURRED, and no preterist can offer the first quark of EVIDENCE proving they have. Both Daniel and Jesus prophesied a great tribulation coming upon the whole world, which will be the worst disaster in man's history. Obviously, it hasn't yet happened. Bad as WW2 was, it did NOT hit most of the world. The Western hemisphere was almost untouched, and the "Holy Land" escaped as well.
And Daniel, Paul, & Jesus(in the Revelation) have prophesied about a coming world ruler who will be the most-evil man who will ever live, and who will commit the "abomination of desolation". (I believe this AOD will consist of the antichrist entering the temple the Jews will build in Jerusalem, setting up his statue in it, and proclaiming himself to be God, & demand to be worshipped.)
Some say Antiochus IV Epiphanes committed the AOD by setting up a statue of Jupiter in the temple & sacrificing a pig on its altar, but plainly, both Jesus & Paul showed the AOD was still future.
Point is, it's obvious there's ample evidence for the LITERAL fulfillment of Biblical prophecy,and there's still a good deal of such prophecy yet to be fulfilled.
I believe there's enough historical evidence to prove Biblical prophecy is LITERALLY fulfilled, As we've had lots of preterism discussions lately, let's look briefly at Daniel 9,11, & 12, as well as Jesus' Olivet Discourse. We see the literal fulfillment of parts of Daniel 9 in the coming & ministry of Jesus, & the fulfillment of much of Daniel 11-12 in the constant wars between the Ptolemies & Seleucids, with the Jews & Judea being used almost as a soccer ball between them.
Glad to see several historians aboard! They can verify the fact that the Ptolemaic rule of Egypt & its surroundings is one of the best-documented periods in the existence of ancient Egypt, & can verify the wars between they & the Seleucids literally followed Scripture precisely.
Same with the Olivet Discourse. We see that Jerusalem and the temple were literally destroyed exactly as Jesus prophesied, with not one stone of the temple left upon another. We also see there's war, rumor of war, persecution of Christians in many places, Jerusalem trampled underfoot by gentiles, etc. etc.
Given all these LITERAL fulfillments of Biblical prophecy, there's simply NO VALID REASON to not believe the rest won't be fulfilled just-as-literally and precisely!
And another thing's certain - the prophesied eschatological events have simply NOT YET OCCURRED, and no preterist can offer the first quark of EVIDENCE proving they have. Both Daniel and Jesus prophesied a great tribulation coming upon the whole world, which will be the worst disaster in man's history. Obviously, it hasn't yet happened. Bad as WW2 was, it did NOT hit most of the world. The Western hemisphere was almost untouched, and the "Holy Land" escaped as well.
And Daniel, Paul, & Jesus(in the Revelation) have prophesied about a coming world ruler who will be the most-evil man who will ever live, and who will commit the "abomination of desolation". (I believe this AOD will consist of the antichrist entering the temple the Jews will build in Jerusalem, setting up his statue in it, and proclaiming himself to be God, & demand to be worshipped.)
Some say Antiochus IV Epiphanes committed the AOD by setting up a statue of Jupiter in the temple & sacrificing a pig on its altar, but plainly, both Jesus & Paul showed the AOD was still future.
Point is, it's obvious there's ample evidence for the LITERAL fulfillment of Biblical prophecy,and there's still a good deal of such prophecy yet to be fulfilled.
I would see that view as being wrong, but not a heresy
AMil/Post Mil are both though within acceptable viewpoints, as both are seen as within Orthodoxy.
To all who might have an interest:
Grammatical has to do with the words of the Bible we have in hand that have had been written. If we had them, the originals, it would have to do with the "autographa," or what Paul or Peter et al actually handled and sent to the churches. We would look at them in the "common sense" method or genre reading that has always made sense. "When the plain sense makes good sense you do not look for any other sense." You look at history as history, you consider poetry as poetry, chronicles as when someone wants to make a record of events, etc. Where the problem or rub may come in is when you have a "specialized genre" like a Gospel or Acts. They are somewhat hybrid genres that must have their own hermenuetical or interpretational issues. Now this is way yonder simplified and in no way intended to patronize or talk down to anyone. One simply deals with what the words mean as the words are written.
Historical has to do with the cultural milieu, historical setting, cultural practices of the people who were the receptors and / or senders of the message. Basically, what we are doing as Bible interpreters is "eaves-dropping" on the text. This is called "authorial intent," what the original author intended for the original hearers to hear and understand. Where the rub for us comes is how to interpret it for out time and make application to our setting. We are trying to overhear what the original writer was saying and meaning to the original hearers in their own time, language, and historical setting. Sometimes that is easy to do. Sometimes not so much. As with the Gospel of John it was written that "ye might believe." But for the Song of Solomon then you must do much historical study to know how it has been interpreted and then the "Why" which is much, much harder. We want to treat it as Christ and the Church. But we dare not dismiss out of hand the plethora of Jewish interpretations. Remember it is a Jewish writing with which we are dealing. And when we dismiss a Jewish understanding of the Scripture we may miss a major understanding for our own Christian context. So, we need to be slow to interpret and let these principles be used and developed over a lifetime to get at some of the deeper things in the Bible.
John of Japan, have I cut it straight?
Correction needed John and appreciated. I if I am a "historian" as you have called me then I appreciate the confidence. I am not a linguist, you are. Come behind me and correct me if you will kind sir.
John, did you see my two posts in Baptist History sections where I posted two rhetorical readings of two great preachers you might want to read? Advise when possible.
FTR (For the Record), I am really trained in Classical Rhetoric, Aristotelian Rhetoric, and Communication Theory and the History of Christian Thought.
rd
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prophecy70
Active Member
They are only because of outright rejection of taking the last chapters of the Revelation as factual and literal.
Other then that, there are many views that are "orthodox" (pedobaptism, purgatory, indulgences) that are not actually Scriptural.
The A-mill and post mill systems are inconsistent with the closest reading and rendering of both OT and NT Scriptures.
Why did the Jews (even the apostles) look for a physical king and kingdom (still do)?
Because that is what the Scriptures teach.
John,
Speaking of publishers, do you have one yet?
By the by your post said Southeastern, did you mean Southwestern?
Advise when possible.
rd
The rouge planet.
Bro. Did you mean Mars, or the rogue planet.
I agree with preMil, but do not see Amil/Post Mil in same category as preterism!
It teaches another gospel, that if you are left behind you have another chance.
No, for those holing to it, as I used to, normally would see that if you rejected Jesus before rapture, you will fall for Satanic delusion of antichrist and be lost!
When I was with those holding it, I was taught that none or very few would be saved.
The original teaching by the Irvingites was that the earth would be left without a prophet or preacher.
I have heard form those who still believe it that it will be the greatest period of gospel preaching in history
They seemed to be a really strange church!
Dear Brother,
I have not been frequenting the BB much later. So I know not how to take your comment. Push back? Slur? Sarcasm? LOL? or what?
I do not think JoJ is my "boss." And I am sure that he does not think he is my "boss."But he is an old friend in whom I have the utmost confidence! I only ask his opinion because he is one whom I know will "cut it straight." And he is one of the few here that I would trust to ask to help me come to a census on a particular reading of an obscure text or other issue I might have. I was going to say something cutty and snarky here but it seems the Holy Spirit has caught me and withholds my comments. So have a very, very blest rest of the day.
rd
David Kent is British. He has something the Brits use as a sense of humor, which we Americans are incapable of fully understanding or even recognizing it is there.
What most of us do is give him the benefit of our colonial doubt and assume he was being what the Brits think is funny. (Think Rowan Atkinson, Benny Hill, and the Monty Python bunch.)
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