"Allowing" unsaved to attend church?

[annsni]

Tom raised the question above as to how the service should be "geared."

I'm not sure we can build a service of worship in any other way than to and for believers! Whom else can truly worship God. But to take that concept and suggest that ONLY believers can be present in the worship service is carrying a point farther than the Scriptures allow.

How much allowance should be given for non-members who may or may not be lost? Some... While unabashedly going about our business, we CAN take the time to explain what we are doing. We CAN greet people who are visitors (but HOW we do that is another issue, singling out visitors with some form of "rise and the church will honor you" is just plain wrong for any number of reasons). We SHOULD take 10 minutes of our time before joining the "holy huddle" after service to speak to visitors before they head for the door thinking that no one in the church really even cares if they are there. And, we OUGHT take whatever time it takes to explain the teaching, sermon, songs, elements of the service, etc., along with an invitation to return.

After that, structuring the service of worship for "seekers" instead of for the regenerate church is likely a mistake of epic proportions.

Amen!! :applause::applause:

 

[WestminsterMan]

An unbeliever cannot worship. An unbeliever cannot "fear" a holy God, he/she hasn't got a clue.

Church is for believers. Having said that. I believe that one of the most effective things that the Holy Spirit uses is the worship of His faithful ones. It is the primary means we have of reaching our physical children, and it is as important when we reach for God's spiritual children.

What of those who are working out their salvation with fear and trembling?

WM

 

[David Lamb]

What of those who are working out their salvation with fear and trembling?

WM

I would suggest looking at the context of those words to get the answer. Those very words of Philippians 2.12 are addressed to believers. Paul decribes the people to whon he is writing the letter in Philipians 1.1:

Paul and Timothy, bondservants of Jesus Christ, To all the saints in Christ Jesus who are in Philippi, with the bishops and deacons:
​

There's no indication there that he is writing to people who are not yet Christians. Forgive me if I am mistaken, but your question seems to imply that "working out their salvation with fear and trembling" is something which unbelievers do.

 

[Tom Butler]

Now tell me the truth. Is there a single individual hear who would want to screen out unbelievers from your church service? Is there a single one of you who would not make them welcome?

I doubt it. We're not in the business of running people off.

 

[Tom Butler]

Our church is small enough that visitors are easy to spot. I've developed the habit of going to them and asking them a direct question: "Why did you come here today?" I used to ask them "what are you doing here," but that comes across as too in-your-face.

And I usually get candid answers. Sometimes it's "we've just moved here and are looking for a church home." Sometimes, "we're unhappy where we are and we're checkin' you out." Sometimes, "Mr./Mrs/so-and-so invited us." Sometimes, "we just passing through and stopped to find a place to worship."

You can find out a lot about those folks just by asking. And I like it better than just shaking their hand and saying "welcome." Every church does that.

 

[annsni]

Our church is small enough that visitors are easy to spot. I've developed the habit of going to them and asking them a direct question: "Why did you come here today?" I used to ask them "what are you doing here," but that comes across as too in-your-face.

And I usually get candid answers. Sometimes it's "we've just moved here and are looking for a church home." Sometimes, "we're unhappy where we are and we're checkin' you out." Sometimes, "Mr./Mrs/so-and-so invited us." Sometimes, "we just passing through and stopped to find a place to worship."

You can find out a lot about those folks just by asking. And I like it better than just shaking their hand and saying "welcome." Every church does that.

I will usually ask "How did you find us?" or "What brought you here today?" It's great hearing the answers.

 

[David Lamb]

Now tell me the truth. Is there a single individual hear who would want to screen out unbelievers from your church service? Is there a single one of you who would not make them welcome?

I doubt it. We're not in the business of running people off.

I agree, Tom. (and I hope you didn't think that my post 63 meant was saying that we should keep people out!!)

 

[glfredrick]

Our church is small enough that visitors are easy to spot. I've developed the habit of going to them and asking them a direct question: "Why did you come here today?" I used to ask them "what are you doing here," but that comes across as too in-your-face.

And I usually get candid answers. Sometimes it's "we've just moved here and are looking for a church home." Sometimes, "we're unhappy where we are and we're checkin' you out." Sometimes, "Mr./Mrs/so-and-so invited us." Sometimes, "we just passing through and stopped to find a place to worship."

You can find out a lot about those folks just by asking. And I like it better than just shaking their hand and saying "welcome." Every church does that.

Any chance that your church remains small enough because of the way you ask? Not being snarky, just wondering if you've considered how you sound to new persons. especially in light of the fact that many new persons do not really want to be singled out by the church (because they don't know anyone, they don't realize that the existing church already knows they may be the only visitors).

Another issue is why so seldom have visitors in many churches? I know that Sojourn is weird compared to many churches out there, but we have more attenders who are not members on any given Sunday than actual members (not that our members are lack in their attendance!). We have about 1100 members over 3 (soon to be 4) campuses, and we average over 2300 total attendance on any given Sunday, with high attendance Sundays running over 2800!

We are certainly not "attractive" in the normal sense of the term. Our buildings are nothing special at all -- most are converted school buildings that are rough around the edges to say the least. We offer no real "programs" that typically draw in people (like a gym, field sports, youth programs, etc.). We mostly feature preachin' and singin'. We have an art gallery, but that is not a big draw. We have concerts where some of our music people perform the shows they do outside the church walls (many are professional musicians), and we have free coffee, but otherwise none of the things that many churches use to draw people.

 

[annsni]

Any chance that your church remains small enough because of the way you ask? Not being snarky, just wondering if you've considered how you sound to new persons. especially in light of the fact that many new persons do not really want to be singled out by the church (because they don't know anyone, they don't realize that the existing church already knows they may be the only visitors).

Another issue is why so seldom have visitors in many churches? I know that Sojourn is weird compared to many churches out there, but we have more attenders who are not members on any given Sunday than actual members (not that our members are lack in their attendance!). We have about 1100 members over 3 (soon to be 4) campuses, and we average over 2300 total attendance on any given Sunday, with high attendance Sundays running over 2800!

We are certainly not "attractive" in the normal sense of the term. Our buildings are nothing special at all -- most are converted school buildings that are rough around the edges to say the least. We offer no real "programs" that typically draw in people (like a gym, field sports, youth programs, etc.). We mostly feature preachin' and singin'. We have an art gallery, but that is not a big draw. We have concerts where some of our music people perform the shows they do outside the church walls (many are professional musicians), and we have free coffee, but otherwise none of the things that many churches use to draw people.

You DO realize it's all about the free coffee, right?? LOL

 

[WestminsterMan]

snip...
Forgive me if I am mistaken, but your question seems to imply that "working out their salvation with fear and trembling" is something which unbelievers do.

What about those who believe only by mere intellectual assent? They believe but may not be saved.

WM

 

[glfredrick]

You DO realize it's all about the free coffee, right?? LOL

Must be... "All y'all start servin' coffee in the service, ya he'a!"

Next sure-fire way to grow a church! :saint:

It is actually more about week in and week out our people hearing and responding to preaching like the sermon I sent your way yesterday.

It is also all about God doing a move in His called-out people, and us raising the bar for membership and saying, "You can come in here all you like, but if you want to be one of us as a member, you WILL be held responsible for living out the covenant that you agree to sign."

 

[Tom Butler]

I agree, Tom. (and I hope you didn't think that my post 63 meant was saying that we should keep people out!!)

David, my post was directed at no one in particular. I just got to thinking that the title of the OP suggested that some might want to keep them out, and I couldn't imagine why we were even discussing it.

 

[Tom Butler]

Any chance that your church remains small enough because of the way you ask? Not being snarky, just wondering if you've considered how you sound to new persons. especially in light of the fact that many new persons do not really want to be singled out by the church (because they don't know anyone, they don't realize that the existing church already knows they may be the only visitors).

You may have a point. I generally make small talk before I pop the question, and I do it with a smile. But I definitely don't want to run anybody off.

 

[David Lamb]

What about those who believe only by mere intellectual assent? They believe but may not be saved.

WM

Is that what you meant by those who are working out their own salvation? If so, I cannot agree that the bible uses the term to refer to those who have only intellectual assent.

I would say that having mere intellectual assent is not the same thing at all as believing in the bible sense.

In fact, I wonder what exactly you mean by believing "only by mere intellectual assent?" Do you mean just believing that a Person called Jesus existed, or believing that the gospel of Jesus Christ is true, yet not believing it personally, or........?

 

[David Lamb]

David, my post was directed at no one in particular. I just got to thinking that the title of the OP suggested that some might want to keep them out, and I couldn't imagine why we were even discussing it.

Thanks, Tom! Sorry for the misunderstanding.

 

[annsni]

Must be... "All y'all start servin' coffee in the service, ya he'a!"

Next sure-fire way to grow a church! :saint:

It is actually more about week in and week out our people hearing and responding to preaching like the sermon I sent your way yesterday.

It is also all about God doing a move in His called-out people, and us raising the bar for membership and saying, "You can come in here all you like, but if you want to be one of us as a member, you WILL be held responsible for living out the covenant that you agree to sign."

Amen. I pray that we can also continue in that same vein.

But funny enough, we found the coffee helped keep people around to talk. So we spend the $70 it costs each week to have one pot of regular coffee available for us. That will be the one thing I'll be happy about when we get our own place - saving money on coffee costs!

 

[glfredrick]

You may have a point. I generally make small talk before I pop the question, and I do it with a smile. But I definitely don't want to run anybody off.

I would expect nothing less! :applause:

I've done some amount of church consulting over the past decade or so, and as a part of the process, I (or more typically we) will visit a church unannounced and simply see what is happening at the church. We'll wander the halls a bit, ask a few questions, talk to whomever talks to us, etc., then write a report that coincides with a church health survey that goes along with the process.

It is sometimes shocking what happens in a congregation as a matter of course, that no one in the congregation even thinks is incorrect because they've always done it that way.

One of my favorites that I see often I mentioned above -- the concept of either the church rising in honor of seated visitors or asking visitors to rise while the church "honors" them by clapping making much ado, etc. Worse still is when visitors are asked to stand, give their names, where they are from, and state their business with the church. In those places, I wanted to leave even though I'm an ordained pastor! I certainly would never return...

Another is when the church seems desperate for new blood. New people enter and they are swarmed and an attempt is made to almost instantly integrate them into the congregation as if the prodigal son returned home! These churches can often be seen for their desperate state in the way they take the offering and the way they extend the altar call (all 17 verses of Just As I Am) in order to milk the entire congregation dry financially and spiritually.

A third issue is how the pastor addresses new people (or his lack thereof). Outreach during the church service should probably be done by "regular" members instead of the pastor, who sometimes gives the impression that he is the only one in the church who can do anything right by his actions with visitors. What is unspoken is often more powerful than what is said in this case.

A fourth issue is the holy huddle I mentioned above. Church members start checking their watch as the clock ticks toward lunch time. Once the final word is said, there is organized chaos as everyone tries to get out as fast as possible without making it LOOK like that is what they are doing... It is rather humorous to watch at times, even from the pulpit or vestibule. Church members need to be coached long before expecting visitors just how to act around visitors, and how they should gently, kindly, and with respect just talk to new people, invite them to lunch, etc., before getting on with their own day. That visitor may be the one closest to hell on the day they are in one's church, and the church ought to respond in ways that don't drive them closer yet!

There are other issues we watch for, signs pointing the way, bathrooms, parking, greeters, the condition and contents of the bulletin, the condition of the building, pews, hymnals and pew Bibles, directness of speech, theological bent of the sermon, level of musicianship, relation of the congregation to the happenings of the church, preparedness of the church staff or teachers, and general friendliness (every church says they are friendly, but seldom is one truly friendly in a way that is meaningful to a visitor or newbie attender).

All of the stuff above adds up to the total experience of the visitor, and helps to form an almost instant opinion as to whether they will ever darken the door of the church again. Most chose not in most churches that are not growing.

And, I need to say this... The stuff above is the human-centered aspect of church growth. It does not take into account the actions of the Holy Spirit, who must precede any true spiritual growth or uniting with a local congregation. If the pragmatic stuff above is off the chart, the chances of the unbeliever hearing the Holy Spirit will also likely be nil. Being a place conducive to the work of the Holy Spirit is key!

 

[Tom Butler]

GL, these are excellent insights.

We have a time during our service that is called Fellowship Time. That's when we greet each others and our visitors. But we have to avoid the appearance of being perfunctory, and making folks welcome because that's the time in the order of service where we do that stuff. We definitely don't want to give visitors the impression that we're going through the motions.

That's why I like to talk to them prior to the service, or right after. And I want to spend more than just a couple of seconds with them--more than shaking hands and saying "glad to have ya."

I have to admit that I have an advantage. Because I was a television newscaster for 36 years, anybody from within 60 miles of my church will probably recognize my face. So once they get over the surprise, the door is pretty much open for me.

 

[Dr. Bob]

So I brought up James chapter 2

Where do you get "unsaved" from James 2?? We have a RICH Christian brother given a better seat in church than a POOR Christian brother.

Does not relate to the discussion at hand.

BTW, anyone can link a sermon of mine and yes, you will find a strong Gospel message and admonition to respond to God's invitation. We design our service for worship by believers (as did every NT meeting) but we do not know the heart.

www.sovereigngracechurch.com

We also have families - children of believers who themselves may not be regenerate. They hear the Gospel weekly as we most certainly do not know the heart condition of these little ones.

 

[abcgrad94]

I still do not understand where one would get the idea that the church (gathering) is to be some special shelter away from the world. Even if every single person in the assembly is a born-again believer, no church is going to be some perfect sanctuary free from problems.

By allowing "Christians only" to attend church services, I think people like my friend are deceived into thinking they have a refuge away from wolves and evil. I don't see where one could find this concept in scripture. In fact, some of the most zealous "wolves" are those who profess to know Christ. (Apostle Paul, for one.)