Altar call

[Kathy]

Well, I for one am ECSTATIC that my church allowed unbelievers in their services, otherwise, I might not be here right now testifying to the fact that my Lord and Savior Jesus Christ saved my soul from eternal damnation. I might not be out on visitation witnessing to people about the salvation that Jesus offers and I might not be raising my children as Biblically as I know how...

Kathy
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[paul hadik]

Kathy:

praise the Lord for your testimony.
It's not so much should the church disallow unsaved into their meetings. Rather the discussion is should the meetings of the body of Christ be weighted toward reaching the unsaved?
I can't help but note the stunts being pulled to make churches more "user-friendly" and to bring in wider audiences so that they may be exposed to the gospel.
While the mission of the church body is to evangelize, the point of the church meeting on Sundays is worship-something that has been lost.
A return to doctrinal teaching on the nature of God and our relationship to Him and a correct understanding of Scripture will result in believers becoming better witnesses.

paul

 

[Ernie Brazee]

Acts 2:1-47

Hmmm, there were sure a lot of lost people at the attending church in Jerusalem. At least 3000, now if the lost are not welcome in our churches, then what were they doing in the first church?

This is one of the more ridiculous threads seen on this board. Of course we are to go and witness one on one, but people today visit churches and woe unto the ones who fail to present the Gospel to them. They hear, then we can visit and present them the Gospel one on one and they have a little idea what is being presented. The Holy Spirit does work in the hearts of the lost in a church setting, I have seen many people genuinely saved in church.

Also there are those who attend church regularly that have made false professions, and it is the continued preaching of the cross that brings them to faith and repentance.

Let's see, we are not to question ones salvation, we are not to preach to the lost in a church setting....how do these people then get saved?

Ernie

 

[paul hadik]

Ernie:

you stated, "this is one of the most ridiculous threads seen on this board"

Well, thank you, but I have been eating right, and exercising and that has helped. Of course, I can't take all the credit. Most belongs to Packerbacker and I learned alot reading the thread about 'lowered robes and fundamentalism' but still it is nice to know that we have accomplished something.
*taking a bow*

now onward into the breach of my ******ity:

Acts 2 was hardly a church. I suppose they could have sung 1500 verses of Have Thine Own Way Lord while all those thousands fought their way up the middle aisle (or were they meeting in a coliseum?)
Your comment on not preaching to the lost in a church setting was just another strawman singing his way to OZ. None of us have ever said that. Certainly there is a place for that (although maybe if there were fewer pushy altar calls there would be fewer false professions to worry about)
Let me clarify what I have been trying to say.
The church, biblically defined is an organism: the body of Christ with Christ at the head. Therefore semantically speaking unsaved attending church is oxymoronic.
Ephesians 4:11-12 speaks of certain gifts given to edify the saints in the body of Christ. The unsaved have none of these gifts. The unsaved can not edify the body. The next few verses go on to encourage the growth of the body. The unsaved man is dead in his sins...can't grow. To continually focus on reaching the lost in a church setting is to ignore the need for teaching the body.

Please don't think we are speaking against reaching the lost. I live in Micronesia-far away from my family for the sole purpose of reaching the lost. But on Sundays, when we believers get together to worship God we do NOT invite the lost. Instead we offer our praise to God (which the unsaved can not do) we study Scripture applicable to believers (which is wasted on the unregenerate) and we fellowship as a body of believers (which would be subtly changed if unbelievers were amongst us)

There is nothing ridiculous about this thread if you are willing to admit that God is due His worship from the body and that an unsaved enemy can not do this. For me I will continue to go into the world to preach the Word, but on Sundays I will meet to worship my Savior.

paul

 

[Dr. Bob]

Amen, Paul. Appreciate you setting straight about our concept of a "church" today and the great preaching on the Day of Pentecost.

Churches are for Christians. When other priorities control, the Churches will lose their effectiveness.

 

[SeaFlower]

Hi All,
Jesus often spoke to multitudes. In gatherings, one after another, teaching and preaching...to a mixture of people. Jewish, Gentile, Pharisee, & Saducee.
A mixed congregation...
Some just longing for healing, Some already believers, many unbelievers, and some to try and find reason to accuse Jesus.

There are many reasons an unbeliever might come to church, many reasons for a salvation message...such as the children of believers.
And believers just need to hear a salvation message now and then too!
But there are a lot of messages to believers that God uses to convict an unbeliever.
Talking about Hell, and being a witness. Or I have noticed a lot of people come forward when the message has just been about the closeness we have with God.

A lot of times you may witness to someone, and invite them to church. They might think you are a one in a million "wacko" but to humor you come to church...and see you are not alone. then they will either run out or perhaps be convicted by the message, and what you have already told them.

Acts 2:47
"And the Lord added to the church daily *such as should be saved.* "

They came *to* be saved (though they might not have know it at the time!). An altar call, may not be biblical, but there is always to be a call. Jesus is our altar...I like to think that He is calling these people with His "still, small voice" and we sometimes need to give them the *hearing aid* to hear it.
Ok, too much coffee, when I start with my descriptions!
Hugs,
~SeaFlower!~

 

[PackerBacker]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Ernie Brazee:
Acts 2:1-47


....... we are not to preach to the lost in a church setting....how do these people then get saved?

Ernie<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Are you serious? You honestly don’t have any idea how a person can be saved outside a “church” setting??? Ernie, take another pass through Acts, but maybe a little slower this time. Accounts like the Ethiopian man in the desert, Saul’s conversion, Cornelius, Lydia, the Jailer, and many more, ought to answer your question. Need any more help, just holler.

 

[PackerBacker]

Because of questioning altar calls and actively inviting the lost into the “ekklesia,” some of you assume some of us are wacko. I can only imagine that you envision us huddled together as a church, surrounded by barbed wire, patrolled by commandos with automatic weapons and 200 pound rabid dogs, with a billboard out front that says: “GO AWAY, YOU’RE NOT WELCOMED HERE”. The David Koresh (sp) group is small time compared to us fringe Baptists.

Relax, wake up it’s only your dream.

While it is true that I, for one, do not actively invite the lost to the assembling of the church, I would never run someone away that came. You might ask, “Well how is anyone ever added to the group/ ekklesia if you don’t invite visitors and give an altar call?” Easy answer. Believers are added to the group as a result of active witnessing outside the assembly. As a missionary pastor, I am active in preaching Christ to the lost outside the assembly and not trolling for lost fish within the group. Those who believe the message of repentance and faith in Christ are then joyfully added to the church and find immediate fellowship within the body. While it may seem weird to operate this way, I’ll challenge you to prove it being ridiculous by the examples of churches in Acts.

By the way, I’m not opposed to those of you that uses a service to evangelize the lost, as I myself do sometimes. Praise God for those He does save and will save in this activity. I just question the idea of calling this evangelistic service to a mixed group of saved and lost, “church.”

For those of you that think the position of not giving “altar calls” in the assembling of the church is weird or sad, you should remember, as was pointed out by Barnabas, that your way of doing things is the “new kid on the block.”

 

[Ernie Brazee]

Go back and read the whole post PACKERBACKER.

 

[PackerBacker]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Ernie Brazee:
Acts 2:1-47

Hmmm, there were sure a lot of lost people at the attending church in Jerusalem. At least 3000, now if the lost are not welcome in our churches, then what were they doing in the first church?

This is one of the more ridiculous threads seen on this board.

Ernie<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ernie,

Saying that the 3000 in Acts 2 were “in or attending the first church” needs a little more proof than your opinion, under your definition of ekklesia (church). Lets do a little break down of Acts chapter two and see if your assumptions fit:

Acts 2:1-4
Who is there? Are their three thousand meeting at the “Such and Such Church of Jerusalem” and receiving the promised Holy Spirit? Nope Only believers in attendance. 3000 unbelievers were not sitting there in “the upper room church” scratching their heads wondering why they didn’t get the Spirit of God, or some good wine, as others would later accuse.

Acts 2:5-13
Did the message go out that there would be “church” services in the upper room where you could come and sing songs, join in prayer, worship God through Jesus Christ, break bread together, and then get a multi-language message about Repentance? Nope. Word spread through the city and people came to see what was going on.

Acts 2:41-47
After reading through Peter’s defense and great comments in verses 14-40, we see that 3000 people were added the original group that had received the Spirit of God in the Upper Room. Did you notice what the activities or characteristics were of the church in verses 41-47 when they assembled? Continuing in the apostles doctrine, fellowship, breaking bread, prayers, having all things common, etc shows no sign of the lost hanging out (Kind of like a Half Covenant thing) and participating in these things until they finally become a full fledged member of the church.

There is only one way that I can agree with your premise of the lost “attending the first church” or being “in” that first church. If “church” is a service of believers preaching repentance to the lost, than of course the 3000 were in “church,” attending “church,” or even a part of “church”. If you are defining church (ekklesia) as an activity of preaching salvation to the lost instead of a group of believers, I can buy your premise even though I’ll not buy that definition of church. Church is not an activity, outreach, place, service, time, building, or denomination. All examples of “church” in the book of Acts are in reference to the group of baptized believers, fellowshipping together in prayer, worship, suffering, breaking of bread, etc.

 

[Dr. Bob]

We have closed a duplicate thread started on the Theology Forum, so bumping this to the top for easy access.

 

[fcs25]

You receive Christ mentally by accepting the gospel message as true.By believing Christ died for you and rose again on the third day..by accepting the fact that you cannot save yourself and that you are a sinner in the eyes of God, completely helpless on your own.You do not receive Christ by walking/running/or crawling anywhere.You are saved and given eternal life by God the moment you believe in his Son,Jesus Christ.Believe means to trust completely.

 

[swaimj]

The altar call is a method. It is a human method. And just like loads of other methods we use, it is neither good or bad in and of itself. It can be good if we are careful not to manipulate people for our own designs. If we are not careful, if can be a terrible. There are examples of both.

 

[Scott J]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Brian:
Sad as it is to say many times you can sit through a sermon and not hear a clear evangelical message. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> The New Testament model is that the saints were equipped in the church meetings and that all of them were responsible for declaring the gospel to the unsaved world. The real tragedy is that the lost must go to church to hear a clear presentation of how to be saved. Church should be for building up the saints. Our command is to go to them, not wait for them. I realize that many people are saved in church, at the altar after a gospel message- I was. The problem is when this becomes the expected method.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> Can anyone find a scripture against it?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> The better question is can anyone find scripture supporting it?

 

[Scott J]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by mark:
The Bible says, "confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord" (or something like that) and alter calls are such obvious ways to do that, so I hope they happen at every service (and even at potlucks haha).<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> That is perhaps a start but the real test of confession is out in the world, not in the friendly confines of church. The danger is that someone might believe that going up for an altar call fulfills this proof of salvation...it doesn't. Many people go to the altar, shed tears, say a prayer, shake everyone's hand, and even submit to baptism without ever truly accepting Christ. Compare this to someone who quietly accepts Christ in the pew then goes to work and confesses Him to co-workers.

 

[Ed Habal]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by swaimj:
The altar call is a method. It is a human method. And just like loads of other methods we use, it is neither good or bad in and of itself. It can be good if we are careful not to manipulate people for our own designs. If we are not careful, if can be a terrible. There are examples of both.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I agree, bus ministries are unscriptural too-- because they didn't have buses yet. The Lord uses buses and altar calls to save lost souls. If it is not compromising and it is not sin and souls get saved then all glory to God.

 

[paul hadik]

I understand some Trail of blood theorists and Baptist Briders trace busing (true busing by the way) all the way back to Genesis 24:61-63...so for some it is Scriptural.

 

[rlvaughn]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by paul hadik:
I understand some Trail of blood theorists and Baptist Briders trace busing (true busing by the way) all the way back to Genesis 24:61-63...so for some it is Scriptural.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Paul, I have been around "Trail of blood theorists and Baptist Briders" all my life, and I've never heard that one! Though there may some of that category who believe that, please don't blame it on all of us!!

 

[Daniel David]

What we find in Scripture is that Jesus told Peter to feed the sheep and lambs. We are to go into the world and make disciples. The pattern for the church gathered is found in Acts 2:42-47. Rick Warren and other fools of his thinking boast of having 40% of their attendance lost. Hello! The church isn't the mission place. The world is. Altar calls are just another one of Finney's manipulative methods to trick or deceive people into salvation (you came forward - great - now go pray this prayer and you too can...). Just stick to the Word and God will save bring conviction and save people.