Am I Now IFB?

[Steven Yeadon]

". . . Now he that planteth and he that watereth are one: and every man shall receive his own reward according to his own labour. For we are labourers together with God: ye are God's husbandry, ye are God's building. According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon. For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ. . . ." -- 1 Corinthians 3:8-11.

Wow, I guess you do not understand it as I have.

". . . Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: . . ." -- Matthew 28:19-20.

Jesus, as I understand this, commissioned His disciples teach their disciples, what He had taught them. And so on down the line to us. And we others after us. That was my "Baptist" training, beginning with me being won to Christ.

". . . Jesus saith unto them, My meat is to do the will of him that sent me, and to finish his work. Say not ye, There are yet four months, and then cometh harvest? behold, I say unto you, Lift up your eyes, and look on the fields; for they are white already to harvest. And he that reapeth receiveth wages, and gathereth fruit unto life eternal: that both he that soweth and he that reapeth may rejoice together. And herein is that saying true, One soweth, and another reapeth. I sent you to reap that whereon ye bestowed no labour: other men laboured, and ye are entered into their labours. . . ." -- John 4:34-38.

". . . Herein is my Father glorified, that ye bear much fruit; so shall ye be my disciples. . . ." -- John 15:8.

". . . Ye are the light of the world. A city that is set on an hill cannot be hid. Neither do men light a candle, and put it under a bushel, but on a candlestick; and it giveth light unto all that are in the house. Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven. . . ." -- Matthew 5:14-16.

". . . Jesus again unto them, saying, I am the light of the world: he that followeth me shall not walk in darkness, but shall have the light of life. . . ." -- John 8:12.

". . . And they that be wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament; and they that turn many to righteousness as the stars for ever and ever. . . ." -- Daniel 12:3.

". . . The fruit of the righteous is a tree of life; and he that winneth souls is wise. . . ." -- Proverbs 11:30.

I was taught to carefully distinguish who is being addressed. This is so that we do not assume modern disciples are necessarily being talked to. We can derive when modern disciples are meant too by carefully understanding the context.

I will have to go through the scriptures you gave carefully to see who is meant as the ones addressed.

 

[37818]

I was taught to carefully distinguish who is being addressed. This is so that we do not assume modern disciples are necessarily being talked to. We can derive when modern disciples are meant too by carefully understanding the context.

I will have to go through the scriptures you gave carefully to see who is meant as the ones addressed.

I did not assume what you think.

". . . Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: . . ." -- Matthew 28:19-20.

Jesus, as I understand this, commissioned His disciples teach their disciples, what He had taught them. And so on down the line to us. And we others after us. That was my "Baptist" training, beginning with me being won to Christ.

Now how is my understanding to this point wrong? The Apostles wrote those teaches down and passed it to some church or churhes which in turn made copies and have been passed down to us.

 

[Steven Yeadon]

I did not assume what you think.

Now how is my understanding to this point wrong? The Apostles wrote those teaches down and passed it to some church or churhes which in turn made copies and have been passed down to us.

I'm sorry, but I don't understand what you are getting at. Could you define your position more clearly and state why you think I'm wrong?

 

[37818]

I'm sorry, but I don't understand what you are getting at. Could you define your position more clearly and state why you think I'm wrong?

My appologies back. I agree that that to whom the speaker in the text or the audience to whom the writer was addressing must he one of the first things be considered in interpreting a text.

In Matthew 28:19-20 Jesus was addressing His disciples who He instructed to teach their disciples His teachings to them. As I understand, in turn down to us.

 

[Steven Yeadon]

My appologies back. I agree that that to whom the speaker in the text or the audience to whom the writer was addressing must he one of the first things be considered in interpreting a text.

In Matthew 28:19-20 Jesus was addressing His disciples who He instructed to teach their disciples His teachings to them. As I understand, in turn down to us.

I'll need to do a deeper study on the passage in 1 Corinthians in the Greek as well.

 

[John I Morris]

I need some help identifying where I sit in terms of Baptist doctrine.

I have been spending my free time debating apologetics, bible, and doctrine for a year on an apologetical Facebook group. My views on doctrine have changed as a result, as I have delved deeper and deeper into the Word. I want to know where I am on the Baptist spectrum of doctrine. I think I am now in line with independent fundamental Baptists, but I'm not sure. My old SBC church was definitely unhappy with my current doctrine and thought me too much like the IFB.

The big thing is I gave up believing "once saved, always saved" as I delved into the Word. I believe unrepentant sin on our part can lead to apostasy and if that is unrepentant, hell. I know free will Baptists are the same, but I was told IFB are that way too by a deacon at my old SBC church.

I prefer the NASB and Interlinear now, and I am strongly against very "thought-for-thought" translations like the Message.

I want nothing to do with Rick Warren and similar Seeker Driven programs or teachings. The reason is complicated but has to do with what I perceive as giving into the culture of the world.

I believe women should not preach, teach, or hold authority in church except over children and other women.

I hold to God's foreknowledge and predestination of people to the faith, but I believe God wants all saved and that this paradox is alright because God's ways are so much higher than our comprehension.

I hate Charismatic Influence and want none of it in church.

I believe very strongly in church discipline.

I am not dispensationalist.

Just my opinion, which I am careful when sharing. The first problem would be that you think that one can lose their salvation. That is a huge no, no in the IFB camps. One who has accepted Christ as Savior is saved eternally or the Bible is not true. (Romans 8, Ephesians 1:13; 4:30, Jesus said that He would never leave us nor forsake us.
Also, being that you are not a Dispensationalist, would it be that you are a Covenant Theologian? If so, that would take you out of IFB camp. Even though the other things are acceptable, mostly, but depending on which camp of IFB. I don't know of a IFB that is not Dispensational... Again, just my opinion. What matters, is not what we think, but what God knows.

 

[Yeshua1]

Just my opinion, which I am careful when sharing. The first problem would be that you think that one can lose their salvation. That is a huge no, no in the IFB camps. One who has accepted Christ as Savior is saved eternally or the Bible is not true. (Romans 8, Ephesians 1:13; 4:30, Jesus said that He would never leave us nor forsake us.
Also, being that you are not a Dispensationalist, would it be that you are a Covenant Theologian? If so, that would take you out of IFB camp. Even though the other things are acceptable, mostly, but depending on which camp of IFB. I don't know of a IFB that is not Dispensational... Again, just my opinion. What matters, is not what we think, but what God knows.

CT, such as Reformed Baptist though strongly hold to eternal security of the true saint in Christ.

 

[Yeshua1]

I'll need to do a deeper study on the passage in 1 Corinthians in the Greek as well.

Romans 8 pretty much defines eternal security of those who have been really saved, as all of the warning passages address those who merely profess Christ!

 

[Calminian]

Romans 8 pretty much defines eternal security of those who have been really saved, as all of the warning passages address those who merely profess Christ!

Jesus himself said the Church would consist of wheats and tares until the very end. Matt. 13:30. It makes perfect sense the Apostles would send warnings to the Church.

 

[Vanya]

"Once Saved, Always Saved" and "Faith Alone" doctrines bring us to pacifism. That is why Christianity, in our case Protestant Christianity is loosing supporters. We don't do anything against the perverted Tv programs, banking system, political system or even for our brethren. Torah does not mean "Law" but it means "Instructions" They regulate how we shall treat each other as brethens. Consider it like this: You tell your children to take care of each other since they are brothers/sisters and one of them kills the other one! How would you feel and act?
Or you don't want your children to get married with..." And s/he does?
That is much or less same for God when we don't follow his Instructions.
As for this doctrine, "What will happen if we disobey? Forever Hell? Why and how come? And for ever? Or no judgement at all? What about justice?
What makes someone IFB? I think the main distinction is to see Lord's Supper and Baptism as ordinances as well as being an anti-Calvinist and Hard Preaching.

 

[Calminian]

"Once Saved, Always Saved" and "Faith Alone" doctrines bring us to pacifism.....

There is one extreme type that does, which holds to the idea that one can apostate and still be saved. But that's not the perseverance of the saints doctrine of security. Scripture tells us to examine our faith to make our calling and election sure. True believers bear certain traits. They bear fruit and the do not fall away from the faith.

Heb. 3:14 We have come to share in Christ, if indeed we hold our original conviction firmly to the very end.

1John 2:19 They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us.​

And BTW, this is not why the Church is shrinking in America. That's is the result of losing the minds of our youth to the religion of evolution and millions of years.

 

[Steven Yeadon]

There is one extreme type that does, which holds to the idea that one can apostate and still be saved. But that's not the perseverance of the saints doctrine of security. Scripture tells us to examine our faith to make our calling and election sure. True believers bear certain traits. They bear fruit and the do not fall away from the faith.

Heb. 3:14 We have come to share in Christ, if indeed we hold our original conviction firmly to the very end.

1John 2:19 They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us.​

And BTW, this is not why the Church is shrinking in America. That's is the result of losing the minds of our youth to the religion of evolution and millions of years.

I don't think it is just science education steeping our children in unbiblical ideas. As I said in another thread:

I left the SBC for IFB and Freewill Baptist churches recently. Beth Moore and the controversy with John MacArthur, someone many very conservative Baptists listen to, was the straw that broke the camel's back IMO. There is a lot behind the scenes.

First, there was almost no discussion in my churches or Sunday schools on what biblical womanhood looks like. To use the bible's passages is to look insane to the culture and even most Christian women. That the very subject of biblical womanhood is controversial bodes very ill for trying to keep and enforce doctrine on the matter.

Second, the SBC cultural milieu has already been trying to appeal to Seekers and thus appeal to people that embrace the broader American culture in general since at least the late 90s. I'm sorry, but having been a seeker at an earlier point, there needs to be a real push to convince us American pop culture is wicked.

Third, pop psychology and entertainment is infecting too many sermons. Entertaining seekers and comforting people who should not be comforted is not a winning combination in the siege the world and broader culture has placed on Christians. We need a defense of biblical Christianity desperately instead so that disciples who believe and act rightly are made.

Fourth is something I saw years ago. I was usually very unusual in my SBC church for being a 20 something engaged at church. I was stunned how much of an exodus there was from high school to college. I came to the faith first at 20 so I didn't go through the high school to college period. However, it is just unsustainable to lose 5 out of 6 young adults and hold onto conservative doctrine against the American culture except as islands of resistance against the world system.

Lastly, and most tellingly, biblical flat illiteracy is at epic proportions in every SBC church I ever joined for a little while. The only people among my early career age group that knew the bible were ministers or those that one day wanted to be one.

Something has to give eventually, and IMO the biggest problems are that the youth left, the young adults don't know the bible, biblical womanhood is controversial to discuss, and the culture now hates Christianity. Meanwhile, Seekers are sought without asking them to count the cost of leaving American pop culture. Lastly, there is but a whimper coming from too many pastors providing entertainment sermons instead of preparing the church to face a siege and hatred by the culture around us while calling us to the biblical faith.

I am convinced sociologists are bound to write the post-mortem on American evangelicalism because the factors seem so generational and structural as to our decline.

 

[xlsdraw]

I don't think it is just science education steeping our children in unbiblical ideas. As I said in another thread:

I left the SBC for IFB and Freewill Baptist churches recently. Beth Moore and the controversy with John MacArthur, someone many very conservative Baptists listen to, was the straw that broke the camel's back IMO. There is a lot behind the scenes.

First, there was almost no discussion in my churches or Sunday schools on what biblical womanhood looks like. To use the bible's passages is to look insane to the culture and even most Christian women. That the very subject of biblical womanhood is controversial bodes very ill for trying to keep and enforce doctrine on the matter.

Second, the SBC cultural milieu has already been trying to appeal to Seekers and thus appeal to people that embrace the broader American culture in general since at least the late 90s. I'm sorry, but having been a seeker at an earlier point, there needs to be a real push to convince us American pop culture is wicked.

Third, pop psychology and entertainment is infecting too many sermons. Entertaining seekers and comforting people who should not be comforted is not a winning combination in the siege the world and broader culture has placed on Christians. We need a defense of biblical Christianity desperately instead so that disciples who believe and act rightly are made.

Fourth is something I saw years ago. I was usually very unusual in my SBC church for being a 20 something engaged at church. I was stunned how much of an exodus there was from high school to college. I came to the faith first at 20 so I didn't go through the high school to college period. However, it is just unsustainable to lose 5 out of 6 young adults and hold onto conservative doctrine against the American culture except as islands of resistance against the world system.

Lastly, and most tellingly, biblical flat illiteracy is at epic proportions in every SBC church I ever joined for a little while. The only people among my early career age group that knew the bible were ministers or those that one day wanted to be one.

Something has to give eventually, and IMO the biggest problems are that the youth left, the young adults don't know the bible, biblical womanhood is controversial to discuss, and the culture now hates Christianity. Meanwhile, Seekers are sought without asking them to count the cost of leaving American pop culture. Lastly, there is but a whimper coming from too many pastors providing entertainment sermons instead of preparing the church to face a siege and hatred by the culture around us while calling us to the biblical faith.

I am convinced sociologists are bound to write the post-mortem on American evangelicalism because the factors seem so generational and structural as to our decline.

You have aptly described exactly what the prophecied "falling away" would look like.

Pair what you described in the American culture with:

Escalating Civil Unrest across the globe, including America and Israel.

The worldwide propaganda projected paranoia over Climate Change.

Boldness by the Trump Administration in severing financial aid and consideration for the Palestinians whilst providing increased support for Israel. Which logically magnifies the already supernatural antisemetic hatred currently pulsating throughout the earth.

The rise and rooting in of very strong authoritarian type figures in all the northern nations listed in the prophecied Gog-Magog war.

Israel's external enemies are staged and armed to the teeth. Israel's internal enemies are on the cusp of removing Prime Minister Netanyahu from office and no one currently has emerged to steal the hearts of the Israelites.

Israel is vocally proposing applying sovereignty and Israeli law over the West Bank. Which will add more fuel to this antisemetic phenomenon.

Israel which was always thought to be energy poor, up until roughly ten years ago. Now is known to have enormous oil and gas fields in their territorial waters of the Mediterranean Sea. Which they are developing.

I don't guess you could call it antisemitism, but there is a rapidly growing rift between the majority of Jews in the State of Israel and the much more liberalized American Jewish sector. Anyone remember Cain and Abel? There is very real animosity growing in between them.

 

[Calminian]

I don't think it is just science education steeping our children in unbiblical ideas. As I said in another thread:

I left the SBC for IFB and Freewill Baptist churches recently. Beth Moore and the controversy with John MacArthur, someone many very conservative Baptists listen to, was the straw that broke the camel's back IMO. There is a lot behind the scenes.

First, there was almost no discussion in my churches or Sunday schools on what biblical womanhood looks like. To use the bible's passages is to look insane to the culture and even most Christian women. That the very subject of biblical womanhood is controversial bodes very ill for trying to keep and enforce doctrine on the matter.

Second, the SBC cultural milieu has already been trying to appeal to Seekers and thus appeal to people that embrace the broader American culture in general since at least the late 90s. I'm sorry, but having been a seeker at an earlier point, there needs to be a real push to convince us American pop culture is wicked.

Third, pop psychology and entertainment is infecting too many sermons. Entertaining seekers and comforting people who should not be comforted is not a winning combination in the siege the world and broader culture has placed on Christians. We need a defense of biblical Christianity desperately instead so that disciples who believe and act rightly are made.

Fourth is something I saw years ago. I was usually very unusual in my SBC church for being a 20 something engaged at church. I was stunned how much of an exodus there was from high school to college. I came to the faith first at 20 so I didn't go through the high school to college period. However, it is just unsustainable to lose 5 out of 6 young adults and hold onto conservative doctrine against the American culture except as islands of resistance against the world system.

Lastly, and most tellingly, biblical flat illiteracy is at epic proportions in every SBC church I ever joined for a little while. The only people among my early career age group that knew the bible were ministers or those that one day wanted to be one.

Something has to give eventually, and IMO the biggest problems are that the youth left, the young adults don't know the bible, biblical womanhood is controversial to discuss, and the culture now hates Christianity. Meanwhile, Seekers are sought without asking them to count the cost of leaving American pop culture. Lastly, there is but a whimper coming from too many pastors providing entertainment sermons instead of preparing the church to face a siege and hatred by the culture around us while calling us to the biblical faith.

I am convinced sociologists are bound to write the post-mortem on American evangelicalism because the factors seem so generational and structural as to our decline.

Not doubt all these are issues, but it's a waste of time, IMO, to fight on multiple fronts if you don't get the origins story correct. Teachers and professors in public schools understand their first priority is to indoctrinate kids with an origins story that supports the rest of their views. They're very smart to do this. Evolution/deep is foundational to all of their reasoning.

Conversely, we'd be smart to teach kids the true story of origins, which is the foundation of the Gospel and several other doctrines of Christianity. I've found this works well.

CMI has produced a short documentary supporting this theory.

Also check out this Creation Magazine LIVE episode.

 

[Martindr]

I need some help identifying where I sit in terms of Baptist doctrine.

I have been spending my free time debating apologetics, bible, and doctrine for a year on an apologetical Facebook group. My views on doctrine have changed as a result, as I have delved deeper and deeper into the Word. I want to know where I am on the Baptist spectrum of doctrine. I think I am now in line with independent fundamental Baptists, but I'm not sure. My old SBC church was definitely unhappy with my current doctrine and thought me too much like the IFB.

The big thing is I gave up believing "once saved, always saved" as I delved into the Word. I believe unrepentant sin on our part can lead to apostasy and if that is unrepentant, hell. I know free will Baptists are the same, but I was told IFB are that way too by a deacon at my old SBC church.

I prefer the NASB and Interlinear now, and I am strongly against very "thought-for-thought" translations like the Message.

I want nothing to do with Rick Warren and similar Seeker Driven programs or teachings. The reason is complicated but has to do with what I perceive as giving into the culture of the world.

I believe women should not preach, teach, or hold authority in church except over children and other women.

I hold to God's foreknowledge and predestination of people to the faith, but I believe God wants all saved and that this paradox is alright because God's ways are so much higher than our comprehension.

I hate Charismatic Influence and want none of it in church.

I believe very strongly in church discipline.

I am not dispensationalist.

Sounds Armenian. I am curious how you reconcile that Jesus said no one can take us from his hand and election(which is what I assume you mean by predestination) if you believe we can lose are faith.