believe the "gracious" work of God is the Cross, and the Gospel tells us about that work/act of His Grace!
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Amazed By Grace?
- Thread starter preacher4truth
- Start date
believe the "gracious" work of God is the Cross, and the Gospel tells us about that work/act of His Grace!
psalms109:31
Active Member
Since trust in the Lord, God does not consider work how are we not saved by grace?
Since it is the choice of God to save those who trust in His Son how is it that it is man's discision or will we are saved?
If it is not grace then we would have to pay our own debt for our sin which is death.
This is what faith teaches us that we are saved by grace through faith.
Since it is the choice of God to save those who trust in His Son how is it that it is man's discision or will we are saved?
If it is not grace then we would have to pay our own debt for our sin which is death.
This is what faith teaches us that we are saved by grace through faith.
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Skandelon
<b>Moderator</b>
Just read the quotes again and you will see that its both, not one or the other as you seem to think. You are the one who said things like "faith has nothing to do with it," which is completely unbiblical and not even Calvinistic scholars would agree with on on that point.
We are saved by Grace through faith. Not one of those non-Calvinists who posted in that thread would disagree with this point as evidenced in the quotes I provided.
Skandelon
<b>Moderator</b>
Of course I agree that the work on the cross is a part of that gracious work, but don't you also affirm that God is the one who graciously inspired the gospel, preserved the gospel and sends it to "every creature?"
preacher4truth
Active Member
Faith had nothing to do with saving me. His Grace did.
It's not by faith are you saved through grace.
It's the opposite. By grace are you saved through faith.
In other words He chose me, not vice versa.
Perhaps your view is completely unbiblical.
- Peace
Skandelon
<b>Moderator</b>
The first sentence contradicts the last. If you can't see that it is "both/and" not "either/or" I don't think anything I can say will help change that. Would it help if I quoted Calvin or some other Calvinistic scholar to point out your error? Would you listen to them?
Skandelon
<b>Moderator</b>
Can you reconcile your statement above with Paul's statement in Rom 5:2: "By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God."
Thank you.
preacher4truth
Active Member
Tell you what, I'll continue to debate with you as soon as you apologize for calling my position completely unbiblical.
Skandelon
<b>Moderator</b>
If you really meant what you said when you said faith had nothing to do with your salvation, then I cannot retract my statement. That view is completely unbiblical. Faith is essential to one's salvation, even Calvinists affirm this. Maybe you just misspoke or could offer more clarity to your intent?
preacher4truth
Active Member
You believe your faith saved you?
I believe His grace saved me, not my faith. Acts 15:11 But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they., Romans 5:11, it was an election of grace, Ephesians 2:8 by grace are you saved. Note we aren't fallen from faith, but grace, Galatians 5:4, and God called them by grace to the Gospel, 2:9, it is what brings salvation, not faith, Titus 2:11, and also Titus 3:7, justified by His grace.
You completely took what I said out of a big context as also you've done to other quotes. But I am not surprised.
No where does Paul ever state that he was saved by his faith, but he certainly magnifies the grace that saved him.
My faith didn't save me. His grace saved me.
Out of all seriousness you should look at sola gratia, then sola fide.
Do we say "My faith saved me?"
Really? My faith saved me? Not even close. I think it is a misunderstanding really.
Or is it, He saved me by His Grace?
I reject the former and embrace the latter. It was His grace that saved me, and by His gift of Grace in election, He granted me faith also as a gift.
- Peace
preacher4truth
Active Member
My man!
Winman, you misunderstand the meaning here. If "her faith" saved her, she didn't need Christ.
Is your faith some magic potion? Misunderstanding this "faith" as you do has led to word-faith, and other gospels of error, and other false movements.
The Scriptures are clear His grace is actually what saves us. All the faith a person has can never save, ever, it is by His Grace in election, and the gift of faith that this woman and man came to know they were saved. They knew His Grace saved them. It was nothing in them that saved them.
The object of her faith saved her and he, and that is the election of Grace that He extended.
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quantumfaith
Active Member
It is actually not Grace or Faith, it is Grace and Faith. Again a mathematical lesson, in "or" statements only one of the "sides" must be satisfied in order for the statement to be true (accurate). In "and" statements, both statements are required to have a truth value for the statement to be true (valid and accurate). Without God's Grace salvation does not exist (Null Set, division by zero etc) Without faith God will not grant salvation as testified by numerous scriptures.
preacher4truth
Active Member
I know what you're saying and seeing. But I disagree only in that it is harder to understand than this easy "it's both" because it is much deeper than that.
Grace is the part of "grace and faith" that saves us, faith is only the receiving of that Grace. In other words it isn't our faith that saves us, it is actually Grace.
Have you checked out sola gratia? Youtube it sometime and listen to it for more clarification on this. I in a point of time believed it was both, now I believe it all of Grace.
- Peace
I fully understand her faith did not save her, Jesus did, but Jesus will not save you unless you trust him.
I gave the analogy the other day of flying a plane, trying to land. You do not have the ability to fly a plane, so you are going to crash and kill yourself if you try to land. Jesus sits beside you and says, "Trust me, and I will get you down safely." Now you must decide, do you continue to try to land the plane and kill yourself, or do you let him take over and land the plane? You can't help him, or you will crash. You must decide to completely let go and let him take control of the plane. You cease from all effort and just go along for the ride.
This is trusting, this is believeing, placing yourself in Jesus's hands and depending on him. You do the trusting, he does the saving.
quantumfaith
Active Member
I think I understand your passion regarding God's grace, just try to understand that those who add the dimension of faith, do so with the most profound sense of awe and gratitude at God's Grace in the matter of salvation. They (we) are not arguing "faith" in any way as a matter of pride thinking....."we (I) did this". Just try to accept this as humbly as I can express it. None of us have ANYTHING to be prideful about.
preacher4truth
Active Member
Yup. Thus I say Grace Alone does the saving.
I fully understand her faith did not save her, Jesus did, but Jesus will not save you unless you trust him.
I gave the analogy the other day of flying a plane, trying to land. You do not have the ability to fly a plane, so you are going to crash and kill yourself if you try to land. Jesus sits beside you and says, "Trust me, and I will get you down safely." Now you must decide, do you continue to try to land the plane and kill yourself, or do you let him take over and land the plane? You can't help him, or you will crash. You must decide to completely let go and let him take control of the plane. You cease from all effort and just go along for the ride.
This is trusting, this is believeing, placing yourself in Jesus's hands and depending on him. You do the trusting, he does the saving. But if you do not let go of the controls and completely trust him, you are going to crash and kill yourself.
Can you see how trusting is not a work? It is a ceasing of all work and self effort, Jesus does all the work.
preacher4truth
Active Member
I believe folks do so with awe also, no problem there with me. However, I believe a full understanding here of Grace would deepen their sense of awe.
I also don't consider it an "I" thing necessarliy, but do understand that a wrong conception of "faith" has led to various factions, word-faith movements, TBN type of ministries, and to "toxic faith" as we hear of in churches, and also those that allow a loved one to suffer and eventually die because of "faith."
I believe 100% that it is the Grace part that did the saving. I remember hearing this taught years ago as a student in College, that "your faith didn't save you" and this from IFB pastors, not reformed. I disagreed immediately, but came to realize they are correct, it is all of Grace.
- Peace